Which legion counters the Alpha Legion?

[RapatoR]

 

Any plot armour would do, not only SW ones...the Alpha Legion doesn't have plot armour...not a single one of them...

 

 

Yeah...a lone Alpha Legionnaire is just enough to plot the demise of a whole loyalist chapter and pull off said plot successfully

 

He did it while having forces and resources of Abaddon the Despoiler at his diposal. Alone he wouldn't do much.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Any plot armour would do, not only SW ones...the Alpha Legion doesn't have plot armour...not a single one of them...

 

Yeah...a lone Alpha Legionnaire is just enough to plot the demise of a whole loyalist chapter and pull off said plot successfully

He did it while having forces and resources of Abaddon the Despoiler at his diposal. Alone he wouldn't do much.

And don't forget the Scouts and the 9th Company. So we're already at ~200+1 Alpha Legion+ what was it? Four Black Legionnaires? So that's ~205? At least? But yeah, one Alpha Legion did all the work. :P

[Greyall]

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

[Kol Saresk]

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

The Long Game At Carcharias by Rob Sanders.

 

Basically, it was similar but different. They brainwashed some of the aspirants to be mindless drones and then orchestrated a series of events that basically tore the Chapter apart bit by bit until the homeworld was left undefended for the Black Legion to come in and take the gene-seed.

[Excessus]

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

You mean Ghorstangrad...and those "a few years later" you speak of was actually almost 300 years later!!! Most of their operatives were rooted out and killed off, but enough were still in the chapter to instigate a civil war! Not all of them joined the legion after that though. They were working hard for 300 years to be able to do that, it wasn't some plan they came up with over the weekend. Also, it captures the Alpha Legion perfectly! Was it neccesary to do it like that? Probably not, there were most likely several other more effective ways to invade their planet...but the Alpha Legion is patient, and thorough, and they like infiltrating stuff...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

You mean Ghorstangrad...and those "a few years later" you speak of was actually almost 300 years later!!! Most of their operatives were rooted out and killed off, but enough were still in the chapter to instigate a civil war! Not all of them joined the legion after that though. They were working hard for 300 years to be able to do that, it wasn't some plan they came up with over the weekend. Also, it captures the Alpha Legion perfectly! Was it neccesary to do it like that? Probably not, there were most likely several other more effective ways to invade their planet...but the Alpha Legion is patient, and thorough, and they like infiltrating stuff...

 

 

Not to mention it is certainly fun to let your opponents build themselves up as strong as possible, only for you to completely tear them apart.

[AfroCampbell]

it is also strategically intelligent, because its efficacy is not negatively impacted by your opponent's increasing strength

[reckoning]

 

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

The Long Game At Carcharias by Rob Sanders.

 

Basically, it was similar but different. They brainwashed some of the aspirants to be mindless drones and then orchestrated a series of events that basically tore the Chapter apart bit by bit until the homeworld was left undefended for the Black Legion to come in and take the gene-seed.

 

I was under the impression that it wasnt just the scout company. It was several generations of aspirants -> scouts -> full battle brothers who were brainwashed and then turned at the "flip of a switch". Not to mention the entire first company, and IIRC all their TDA, were lost in a battle before the attack.

[Excessus]

 

 

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

The Long Game At Carcharias by Rob Sanders.

 

Basically, it was similar but different. They brainwashed some of the aspirants to be mindless drones and then orchestrated a series of events that basically tore the Chapter apart bit by bit until the homeworld was left undefended for the Black Legion to come in and take the gene-seed.

 

I was under the impression that it wasnt just the scout company. It was several generations of aspirants -> scouts -> full battle brothers who were brainwashed and then turned at the "flip of a switch". Not to mention the entire first company, and IIRC all their TDA, were lost in a battle before the attack.

I think you are mixing things up. There are two stories about Alpha Legion destroying a chapter. One is Ghorstangrad against the Emperor's Swords, where they infiltrate their recruiting planet for 300 years before striking, the other is against the Crimson Consuls chapter, where they just manipulated it so that they would be destroyed, like blowing their terminators up in a space hulk against orks, and stuff like that...

[RapatoR]

 

 

When/where was that? There was an Alpha Legion plot in the Chaos Codex where the Alphas planted psycho-conditioning on young kids in a hive slum used by a Loyalist Chapter as recruiting grounds. A few years later, during a battle between them, the Alphas activated the things and the loyalists were decimated, bolstering the traitors' ranks.

The Long Game At Carcharias by Rob Sanders.

 

Basically, it was similar but different. They brainwashed some of the aspirants to be mindless drones and then orchestrated a series of events that basically tore the Chapter apart bit by bit until the homeworld was left undefended for the Black Legion to come in and take the gene-seed.

 

I was under the impression that it wasnt just the scout company. It was several generations of aspirants -> scouts -> full battle brothers who were brainwashed and then turned at the "flip of a switch". Not to mention the entire first company, and IIRC all their TDA, were lost in a battle before the attack.

 

And one company was destroyed by BL warband which later attacks the homeworld of Consuls. Other companies were destroyed by orks, necrons and tau. AFAIK the AL dude just used his network of operatives to conceal fact that several companies of consuls were destroyed.

 

Thinking about this now, it is explicitly stated he was the only Alpha Legionnaire involved in this? Or it is just assumed because only one AL dude is seen?

[Greyall]

Entire companies destroyed in succession...what was that, the Sitting Ducks Chapter? Sheesh...

[Kol Saresk]

Entire companies destroyed in succession...what was that, the Sitting Ducks Chapter? Sheesh...

All of the Chapters are sitting ducks. 1,000 Marines required to cover the same tract of space millions upon millions of Guardsmen are expected to defend as well. All that was illustrated here was that someone managed to take advantage of the fact that rarely is a Chapter in any one place at any one time.

[Greyall]

Aye, it's very well thought. No known losses -> not enough recruiting/reinforcing...Still, the bulk of the Chapter should've expected some form of contact, was communication simply cut off or was it is a matter of fabricating lies?

[Kol Saresk]

Aye, it's very well thought. No known losses -> not enough recruiting/reinforcing...Still, the bulk of the Chapter should've expected some form of contact, was communication simply cut off or was it is a matter of fabricating lies?

A bit of both and neither. Some of the losses were well-recorded. For example, the First Company being lost on a space hulk when it self-destructed. A company lost in this campaign and a company lost in that campaign. The Alpha Legion masqueraded as the fallen captain of another company that had gone onto a deep-space crusade and unbeknownst to the Chapter, had been wiped out. So when the 9th and 10th Companies turned and slaughtered their trainers, captured the battle-barge and used it to bombard the surface, combined with an attack by the Black Legion, the Chapter was too understrength and caught too unprepared to be able to defend itself.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It was a little bit of both, plus a tainting of the recruitment pool. A couple of battle companies were wiped out on campaign, but the Alphas kept feeding reports back to the Chapter, another couple were wiped when they got caught between Orks and Necrons, they were there taking the place of another Chapter, an order set up by the Alphas. The 8th disappears hunting Black Legion, and the 1st was lost on a Space Hulk when it blew up. The trick was, all the known losses seemed like bad luck until it was too late, once the Chapter Master realises they're under attack, hypno suggestions planted in the Chapter's recruiting grounds are triggered, turned the 10th, 9th and maybe some of the 7th (can't remember) on their remaining brothers. The the Alpha mastermind taunts the Chapter master and has him executed, while the Black Legion allies ransack the Fortress Monastery for loot and gene-seed.

Edit: Damn, Kol got there first.

[Tenebris]

Overall, a standard Alpha Legion operation... no one does asymmetric better than them. 

 

A space marine armed not only with a bolter and power armor, but with patience and a flair for the unconventional warfare can be quite enough in most cases. We speak of the Alpha Legion, like it or not, they do war a credit. They are cold, efficient, bloody smart and thorough... no wonder even the most ancient xeno races considered them as the best imperial military organization back in the HH era. This is not merely simple discipline, this is pure talent for war in its most asymmetric and chaotic of forms. 

 

No saying better sums the Alpha Legion than the one of Sun Tzu, "all war is deception"... it seems that the Alpha Legion took this lesson to the heart. 

[Greyall]

Well, they combine strategic mastery with tactical flexibility and effective execution. Can't get much more competent than that. That they know so and tend to 'toy with their food' too much is a great twist.

[Kais Klip]

Overall, a standard Alpha Legion operation... no one does asymmetric better than them.

 

A space marine armed not only with a bolter and power armor, but with patience and a flair for the unconventional warfare can be quite enough in most cases. We speak of the Alpha Legion, like it or not, they do war a credit. They are cold, efficient, bloody smart and thorough... no wonder even the most ancient xeno races considered them as the best imperial military organization back in the HH era. This is not merely simple discipline, this is pure talent for war in its most asymmetric and chaotic of forms.

 

No saying better sums the Alpha Legion than the one of Sun Tzu, "all war is deception"... it seems that the Alpha Legion took this lesson to the heart.

Unfortunately, moderation is everything. When he wrote those words Sun Tzu did not anticipate for his practitioners to be so compartmentalised that their lord and master (even two of them) did not know the disposition and status of their legion. Simply put, Horus and Khan are correct in that so many secrets and lies eventually strangle the legion and render it ineffective, but they cannot stop because it is a flaw in their psyche not unlike the VIIIth's (grimdark, nice one Bligh).The Unbroken Chain (because only idiots call the 20th legion the Alpha Legion) saving grace is they consider efficiency to different standards.

 

An then we have "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" in the form of a PTSD ridden Iron Warrior captain snapping, going :cuss it and ramming his ship into an organisational lynchpin of the Legion's paramar battle plan. That is what my Astartes are all about, and the reason I cannot hold the XXth close to heart as I once did.

[Kol Saresk]

It was a little bit of both, plus a tainting of the recruitment pool. A couple of battle companies were wiped out on campaign, but the Alphas kept feeding reports back to the Chapter, another couple were wiped when they got caught between Orks and Necrons, they were there taking the place of another Chapter, an order set up by the Alphas. The 8th disappears hunting Black Legion, and the 1st was lost on a Space Hulk when it blew up. The trick was, all the known losses seemed like bad luck until it was too late, once the Chapter Master realises they're under attack, hypno suggestions planted in the Chapter's recruiting grounds are triggered, turned the 10th, 9th and maybe some of the 7th (can't remember) on their remaining brothers. The the Alpha mastermind taunts the Chapter master and has him executed, while the Black Legion allies ransack the Fortress Monastery for loot and gene-seed.

Edit: Damn, Kol got there first.

lol don't worry. You had more specific details than I did, which certainly makes it work out better.

[Wade Garrett]

 

They are cold, efficient, bloody smart and thorough... no wonder even the most ancient xeno races considered them as the best imperial military organization back in the HH era.

"Most likely to betray the Emperor and their brothers after being shown a single vision of dubious provenance" is not the same thing as "best".

[Hyaenidae]

An then we have "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" in the form of a PTSD ridden Iron Warrior captain snapping, going :cuss it and ramming his ship into an organizational lynchpin of the Legion's paramar battle plan. That is what my Astartes are all about, and the reason I cannot hold the XXth close to heart as I once did.

 

...And people say Perturabo's decimation didn't work. :P

[Antarius]

Each Legion does indeed have an 'opposite'. Just because it's more subtle than 'good/bad' doesn't mean it isn't present.

 

Sometimes the Primarch pick their opposites, like Dorn and Perturabo. Sometimes it's the Legionaries, like the Word Bearers setting themselves as rivals to the Ultramarines. Other times it's outlook on the universe, like the Death Guard and Salamanders. Other times it's the means by which an end is achieved, like Night Lords and Raven Guard. If you want proof that their is a conscious effort to make this part of the universe look no further than the primary source material in the FW books. It is quick to point this out. AL/DA, RG/NL, DG/SL

While we're talking opposites/similarities or "darkside/lightside" parallels on the the loyalist/traitor scale, I always thought that people had the Wolves and the Night Lords wrong.

 

To my mind those two legions are each others' opposites. They're both excessively brutal self-styled "executioners" who view it as their mission to punish wrongdoers (often without an actual "go" order) and they both work through fear and terror, purposefully letting their reputation precede them and using it as a weapon. The Night Lords would probably say they were simply the most honest about it, but then they're a bit mental (and the Wolves totally aren't *wink wink*).

 

I could go on, but suffice to say that I think there are quite a few interesting parallels between the two.

[RapatoR]

Well as I said it before, I think there is no legion which "counters" Alpha Legion in the same way there is no legion which could "counter" Ultramarines, Iron Fists, Sons of Horus, or White Scars. I do not dig an idea of Legions having their opposites. It requires brutal oversimplification. If you tried hard enough you could find reasons why any legion can be opposite to each other: Dorn dislikes Johnson's secrecy, White Scars dislike Wolves, Alpha Legion apparently dislikes World Eaters more than any other legion (allies chart in FW books) despite lore mentioning conflicts with Dorn, Russ and Guilliman, and so on.

 

I see legions as equals: any legion can defeat another legion in the same way as any primarch can defeat any other primarch (Horus being the only exception): Space Wolves (or any other legion) can stomp all over Alphas and conversely in mele, Russ (or any other primarch) can be kicked into dust by Alpharius.

 

Some legions tend to have have prefered MO, but that doesn't mean they suck at everything else. White Scars and Blood Angels favor fast engagements, but that doesn't mean they suck at defensive war of attrition (as proven in Siege of Terra). I see all legions being able to handle any aspect of war with equal efficiency. Certainly a Chapter of Ultramarines specialized for siege operations can out-siege a Grand Company of Iron Warriors specialized for boarding actions.

[Greyall]

On the matter of Alpha Legion disliking World Eaters: it probably has more to do with the fact that Angron is uncontrollable and Alpharius is a control-freak and master manipulator. Saddly, brutish as he is, Angron not just about pointing in the right direction and letting go of the leash.

 

More likely than not, Alpharius despises Angron. And yet Horus managed to use the Red Angel effectively.

[b1soul]

I'm getting the impression that the AL are better than everyone else. Other legions only have a chance when the AL chooses to "toy with its prey"

 

I mean really...people like this idea?

 

Long Games at Carcharias and Ghorstangrad are totally awesome and realistic...but when then UM win a few battles "OMG those Mary Sues!" 

 

OK lads...