Need help and motivation. What do I actually have.

[HsojVvad]

Alrighty, from the thread of why we haven't joined the ETL competition, you guys have given me motivation to take out all my CSM stuff out. Now my problem is, I don't really know what I have. I am still learning about CSM slowly. So for me to actually get into my force I want to make, I need to know what they are, and how they are used. Right now, I feel no attachment to them if you know what I mean. Just not in the mood to learn something new, so that is why my CSM never really took off. Right now, this is what I have. I also have the DV box set that is not included in this picture.

 

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l47/hsojvvad/IMG_0838_zps1dcb0166.jpg

 

 

Yes I know what they are, by what FOC they go it, and I have read the stats, but my brain is just not absorbing the information. Being dumb, having CRS and can't remember nothing or just depression I can't get excited. I know what Dark Angles can do. I know what Tyranids can do. After months of reading and doing research, I have figured out I want to do, Alpha Legion. To me they are like the opposite of DA on so many levels, and yet the same as DA on a few levels as well. I love the idea of using blues, purples, greens, (not sure about gold and pink) into painting these guys. 

 

So what I am asking for from my fellow Chaos family, is what do I actually have? How can I use them? Do I use them as a strike force, or an assault force? I want to give these guys character and I am not feeling it, so I want to know what these guys can actually do. I don't play anymore but when I use to play, and plan on playing soon again, is I play for poops and giggles. I don't care if I loose, as long as I have fun. So please no negativity here. That is one of the reasons why I never put anything together. When doing research for CSM, there was so much Negativity that I got turned off CSM for a while and stopped learning what they were about. 

 

I finally got the itch again for CSM, and with your help I want to start my force and start putting them together.

 

So with the picture I have and the DV box set what army can I make? I like to read what you guys suggest and read what I like and see what appeals to me. I know there is a Legion of Everblight mini in there. Since I can't buy Belakor in a store and he is direct only, I saw this in my Hordes pile and thought he would make a great Belakor. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I will appreciate in any information you can give me, or some small stories to inspire me to finish this for the ETL competition. 

 

*edit* I see a lot of people have special names for their Legion/chapter/warband. How do you guys/gals get your name for your CSM force?

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

 

So what I am asking for from my fellow Chaos family, is what do I actually have?

 

Model wise you have

 

HQ

- Finecast Sorcerer

- Finecast Chaos Lord with Jump Pack

- Finecast Dark Apostle (Chaos version of a Chaplain)

- Finecast Warpsmith

- Plastic Chaos Lord Terminator or Sorcerer - If you have any spare Terminator leg & you can happily make both models from this kit.

 

Box set

 

- Raptors:  You can also use this box set to make Warp Talons, more Daemonic type Raptors arm with Lighting Claws.  The Warp Talons are a bit more costly in points, but end of the day it come down to what models you like & what role you see them in your army.  Or you can have them as standard Raptors.  Overall they are really nice models & I just finish painting a unit of Raptors last month but still to use them in game.

 

- Heldrake

 

- Fiend model:  This can be made into ether the Forge Fiend give you that fire power with ether S8 Autocannons or you can swap them out for Plasma Cannon & I think for extra points you can replace the head with a Plasma Cannon.  I seen people use the head Plasma Cannon & kept the Autocannon, Autocannon use for taken on flyer.

There also the Maulierfiend (sp?) which is more for close combat, pretty fast & ignore terrain when move & assaulting.

 

Battleforce

- Chaos Possessed:  They are great models but I not use them in game yet.

- Standard Chaos Space Marines

- Rhino

- Bikes

 

You also got a Greater Daemon of Tezentch, I would use this as a Daemon Prince or if you roll the Daemon Prince result on the boon table for the time being.

 

Overall you have got a nice start to a army with the above & the Dark Vengance box game, give you a bit of everthing to try out in games.  Best thing just to take the models you like & will enjoy model/painting & what role they will play in your games?

 

There are a few good topic, we have one deal with Chaos Space Marines troop chose with diffrent way our memeber use there Chaos Space Marines in games.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289606-troop-csm-how-to-get-them-to-work/

 

I've also started up a topic on useing the Warpsmith in Chaos Armies.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289838-warpsmith-how-do-you-use-them-in-your-own-chaos-armies/

 

Great topic on Be'Lakor

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290082-belakor-the-dark-master-aka-mister-telepathy/

 

For me I general like useing Mech/tank heavy army with fire power, but I also like to get into close combat with my Iron Warriors army as much as possible, general playing (game style) aggressive.  I can not play static gun line armies & I hate useing armies that hide all game doing nothing until the last turn to get object.

 

 

I have figured out I want to do, Alpha Legion. To me they are like the opposite of DA on so many levels, and yet the same as DA on a few levels as well. I love the idea of using blues, purples, greens, (not sure about gold and pink) into painting these guys.

 

You may want to try check out the third Heresy book by Forge World which has a lot of background on the Alpha Legion.  I recently bought the book as it feture the Iron Warriors & I wanted to use the art work & background to help give me idea to convert up & add some cool models base on the Heresy for my Chaos era army.  Also if you check out Lexicanum in the Alpha Legion part, there is some info/background from one of the Forge World book where it talk about Alpha Legion battle Dark Angels

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arkos

 

Also Forge World just release some Heresy era shoulder pads

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff

 

Hope this help out.

[MaliGn]

Looks like you've got quote a mix, but everything you have is useable in one way or another. One question what is the Hordes creature for? I assume you plan to use it as a daemon prince? Are you planning to expand with an allied daemons army because if not I'm not sure what the greater daemon is for.

 

It looks like you could field an army featuring raptors, terminators, cultists, heldrake and forgefiend quite easily. Trouble with terminators is getting them where you need them. The internet will tell you to use them as a suicide squad to deep strike and use combi meltas to blow up a vehicle.

 

If you prefer the more entertaining kinds of options you could run the possessed, it might be worth picking up the crimson slaughter expansion, since you have the dark vengeance stuff and they offer a nice alternative. Or just use them to kitbash up and bulk out your csm.

 

Looks like you've got plenty of things to play with there, try stuff out and see what you like.

[Forté]

Personally at the moment, I wouldn't plan any particular list. Not with 7th edition on the doorstep.

 

What I'd suggest is start with the bare bones. A basic troop squad. So from what you have you're looking at a basic Chaos Marine squad. Why I say this is so you can get your paint scheme nailed and have a starting point too.

 

And like Insane Psychopath said. The latest Forge World - Horus Heresy book has a load of stuff purely on Alpha Legion. Though it may have you wanting to switch to 30k as they do such a good job representing the legions properly.

 

Good luck with it and you know people here will motivate you (just steer clear of threads about Codex, rules, GW hates us, blah, blah, subways bacon...)

[HsojVvad]

Thank you insane psychopath for the great explanation of what I have. Forte and MaiGn thank you as well. Sadly I don't have an option to get HH3. I want it but only getting it through mail I am a buy now get now person. Don't want to pay over $100 and then wait weeks to get it. Mau as we'll make that chaos imperial knight I saw someone do. :)

[KhorneFlakes]

The heldrake is crazy powerful, i have killed a whole ten man squad of space marines with one bale flamer attack, use it for meq. I have tried it on a more hoardy army (Imperial Guard) and it wasn't so good. Too many guard for one flamer attack.

 

I also have a maulerfiend, it is best used for anti tank because of plasma cutters but cam be a tarpit. It does tend to die that way though. If you make a maulerfiend you can use the spare plasma cannon or hades auto cannon from the forge fiend design to convert you dv helbrute to have plasma cannon or auto cannon, both of my dv brutes have plasma cannons, all it takes is two cuts with a fine tooth saw. 

 

Run the sorcerer or dv lord with the CSM, the termi fella with the chosen, the apostle with the cultists, warp smith with the fiend (but make sure he doesn't get shot up)

 

I have 40 cultists and i run them as 2x20, way too squishy as 10, they are great for objectives away from the real fighting or as a meat shield, the chosen can bring on the boom (team with termi fella) in the rhino, CSM with bolters, believe me, they do not work well with only a ccw, unless they are in a rhino. Raptors can team with jump lord and be annoying to your opponent, great assault, 

 

The daemon princes... hmmmmm... they are pretty awesome with wings  but its good to keep them cheap. my answer is probably full of holes but there is an idea. The best way to learn is just to play them, and remember, there is no bad unit 

[Dragonlover]

What you also have is a pretty good spread of stuff to test with so you can work out what you enjoy using, which is always handy.

 

You asked about naming. I've not named my warband, they're just my Alpha Legion army, but I've named my leader Procel Vassago, Scourge of the Abrax Reaches. The name comes from me googling 'fallen angel names' and picking two that sounded coolest from a random list, the title comes from me really wanting to use the word scourge somewhere in there and thus having to find something that fit the rhythm. I'm tempted to name the warband as though I was naming a cheap Robert Ludlum knockoff, the Sigma Protocol or something.

 

I'm with forte, I reckon you should build and paint some basic Marines. They're almost always gonna be useful, and Alpha Legion have a reasonably easy scheme as well. Oh, and it doesn't matter if they look different to how other people have done it. Me, Tenebris and Excessus all use different schemes but they're all Alpha Legion. My recommendation for the armour is Macragge Blue followed by Druchii Violet, then season with green/silver to taste. Tenebris does a good version of the colour scheme from the codex with the green edge highlighting. I've seen some really nice results from the 'basecoat green, then hit with various blue/purple washes' but it always felt like slightly too much messing about to me.

 

Finally, welcome to the fold brother. Hydra Dominatus!

 

Dragonlover

[Forté]

Or you have the FW version of building up a nice metallic and then using blue, green, and purple glazes.

 

Personally a nice blue with green added to build up highlights works well.

 

Oh, and Forge World just released these too

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/al-mkII-shoulder-pads.jpg

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/al-mkIV-shoulder-pads.jpg

[Dragonlover]

Oh man, they make me wish I was using normal Marine models. They are sweet.

 

Dragonlover

[Sception]

They fit just fine on regular chaos marine, bikes, possessed, and raptors/warp talons.  You can get the ones with trim, and then notch & cut up the edge a bit with a hobby knife to get a nice jaggedy chaos look to them.

 

You also may want to consider picking up the chaos half of a dark vengeance kit or two second hand, if you happen to be in the market for making any additions, as the cultists are both a decent unit and a good thematic fit for alpha legion, and the rest are very nice models at the very least.

 

It's true that 7th edition is just around the corner, and there are some pretty major changes incoming.  Even so, we can work out a few things:

 

- Finecast Sorcerer

An infantry sorcerer, probably unaligned for alpha legion, is decent support for your infantry units.  He's arguably better on a bike, but unless you're intersted in picking up an extra box of bikes and hacking apart the model for a conversion, infantry is fine.  7th edition is set to give this guy access to a daemonology lore allowing you to summon daemon units to the field mid game, which is awesome, but would involve purchasing some additional models.

 

- Finecast Chaos Lord with Jump Pack

This guy's got some issues.  first, we'll talk about the model.  It looks cool, but it's very top heavy, and anchored by only some long talons and a chain bit.  That's problem enough for the metal model he originally was, but that's just setting yourself up for misery in a finecast model, with likely problems ranging from simple breaking to hot weather causing the model to just bend over.  IF you opt to run this guy, you're going to want to run a sturdy pin up from the base, through some support (maybe corkboard rocks on the base?) to keep the pin sturdy, up behind the chain, and then up into the model's torso.  If the pin is between his legs, behind the chain, and you paint it matte black, then it shouldn't be too obtrusive, but seriously, I'd consider doing so obligatory.  You'll also want to weight the bottom of the base, since the model is very top heavy.  This was more of a problem for the metal version, but it's still a problem for the finecast.  Also, you might consider using one of the possessed winged backpacks in place of his usual jump pack, just because, imo, this model looks much cooler that way.

 

Of course, that's all assuming you want to use this guy at all.  His meaty fisty lightning claws work pretty well for 'power fist plus lightning claw', which is a decent melee set up in our book, but without access to artificer armor, and having to choose between the nurgle toughness boost to protect him from ID from fists and tzeentch for a respectable ward save, this guy's just going to be way more vulnerable than his points cost would imply.

 

It isn't that he's unplayable, but with the models you have, I wouldn't pick him as a go to first HQ.  Especially since you'd want to pick up at least one more box of raptors in that case to give him a decent retinuej.

 

 

- Finecast Dark Apostle (Chaos version of a Chaplain)

I am not a fan of the current dark apostle rules.  I'd harvest this guy for bits, myself.

 

- Finecast Warpsmith

I actually do like the warpsmith.  It's not great, but still.  But be careful opening the box - look the model on the sprues over with a fine toothed comb - if there's significant warping or pock marks or lost details - look particularly at the rivets & points & mechanical edges, reference the picture, be careful.  I really like the design of the model, but it's absolutely covered in exactly the sort of details that finecast as a material absolutely hates to mold properly.

 

Assuming it's decent, this guy is a pretty fun model on the table, if admittedly a touch overpriced, both in points and in force org slots, and is sadly somewhat lacking in options.  If he had three wounds, or cost 15 to 25 points less and was an elite choice, or if he had access to specialist wargear and a few unique daemonotech options and upgrades....

 

As it is, he's not great, but if you like his style you can still use him.  He likes to march up the midfield in a plus sized infantry CSM squad carrying the burning brand, MoN, and a 5+ ward; or ride with a mechanized squad with the same kit - minus the brand; or hang back, naked, in a squad of havocs behind an aigis line, manning a quad gun or icarus.  He's a decent melee fighter (though no duelist, keep him out of challenges where possible), carries a nice ballistic skill and leadership (though he isn't fearless), and has a few cool special rules (though honestly they won't come up all that often).

 

- Plastic Chaos Lord Terminator or Sorcerer

Do you have any chaos termies yet?  Even if you do, they tend to prefer to run MSU with combi weapons.  Larger retinue squads with characters are possible, though I'd want a storm eagle or spartan to carry them.  I don't know.  I'd leave this model aside for the moment.

 

- Greater Daemon of Tzeentch

I'd hold off on this guy for a moment.  7e is supposedly adding a daemon summoning lore, you might want him for that.

 

- Epic Thagrosh

I'm assuming you play at a non-GW store so that using this model is an option.  It's a little small for a daemon prince, but still big enough for what I have in mind!  Be'Lakor is an awesome, if pricey, character option introduced via a data slate from the black library.  Roll over there and pick it up!  He's a good fit for Alpha Legion (arguably a better fit for night lords, black legion, or especially sons of malice, but still), being a sneaky type unaligned daemon prince.  He also canonically works with just about every chaos faction under a multitude of guises.  The GW model is a bit small for a daemon prince, but that makes him all the better fit for Epic Thagrosh.  ET's still a bit short, especially hunched over as he is, so be sure to build up his base all fancy so he's crouching on a tall pile of rubble or a broken column or something.  Be'Lakor's got wings, no armor, and a big fancy sword, so Epic Thagrosh is a good fit in all of those categories.  The only thing you might consider if you really want to convert him for the heck of it is bigger wings - the LotR Balrog wings look great on him, though they're a bit pricey / hard to come by on the secondary market.

 

There's a thread somewhere around here with a great first post on how to use him in games.  If you have trouble finding it, let me know, and I'll look for it and post a link.  If you don't want to use him as Be'Lakor, he also makes a decent boon prince (a daemon prince model to use in the event one of your models with the 'champion of chaos' rule rolls the 'dark apotheosis' result on the boon table) to keep in reserve, though technically boon princes do have armor and don't have wings, but w/e.

 

Box set

 

- Raptors or warp talons

Do you want a stand alone unit, or a retinue for a character?  If the latter, then imo you'll want some numbers for defense, in which case I would lean heavily towards raptors, which get you those numbers cheaper, and would encourage you to pick up a second box to fill them out a bit.  Grab a couple meltaguns, maybe a power weapon on the champ, maybe a mark of nurgle or (if you play with a lot of impassible, los blocking terrain, but with little difficult terrain, and run up against regular marine enemies a bunch) a mark of slaanesh, maybe with the FNP banner, but imo that's going too far, and marking at all is probably points better spent elsewhere.

 

If a stand alone unit, I'd load five raptors up with as many meltaguns as they can carry, maybe a combi-melta on the champ, and deep strike them.  Yeah, maybe you lose them, but if they land on target that can be a nasty surprise.  Alternatively, five warp talons can be vicious, if your tables have a lot of LoS blocking, impassible terrain and not a lot of difficult terrain and you play against a lot of loyalist marines, but not loyalist marines who like to take drop pods (and if all of that is true, MoS might be worth considering).

 

 

- Heldrake

It's a beast, give it a baleflamer.

 

- Forge or Mauler fiend

Lately it seems like the mauler fiend is the better choice, but maulers like to be run in pairs, in support of one or more max sized squads of nurgle spawn, and that's a lot extra to buy.  if you just want to run one on its own, then the fiend is probably the better choice, with the autocannons, with or without the extra ectocannon.  You'll want a few other vehicles in the list, though.  You also might try converting & magnetizing the fiend to make both options interchangeably.  Try building it as a maulter fiend, but magnetize the head, use magnets where the maulers normal options go (so you can use tendrils or cutters, or leave them off when a forgefiend), and then mount the forgefiend pegs on the maulers shoulders, with heavy magnets (disc magnets about 1cm in diameter, any less and they won't hold the guns upright) to hold the forgefiend guns.  The only trick is figuring out what to put on the shoulder nubs when running it as a mauler (a trick I still haven't figured out).  

- example

- example

- Chaos Possessed

Possessed are kind of bad, but the models are nice, and fit your other CSM models.  I'd use them for bits fodder on champions and the like.

 

- Standard Chaos Space Marines

- Rhino

A regular squad of chaos marines with bolters and a pair of plasmaguns (grab the spare from your raptor kit, trade them the meltagun if making regular raptors) in a rhino is a decent troops unit.  Not good, kinda lackluster compared to the marine troops squads of other factions, but still certainly usable.  if you want to throw a character in (the sorcerer or warpsmith, perhaps), then you might give the champ a combi weapon to make up for the plasmagun you'd have to drop.  Honestly, the combi weapon isn't a bad choice, anyway.  FW makes a nice combi weapon kit for heresy 

 

You do not have enough troops.  Not only for FoC restrictions (which are going away soon), but also just in terms of having enough scoring models (which may or may not matter in 7e, but probably will).  So regardless of what else you get you're going to want more troops.  Another box of ten plus a rhino would be a good start.  Alternatively (or in addition), picking up DV cultists on the secondary market could help you, here.

 

 

- Bikes

Chaos bikes are good these days.  like raptors, run them MSU with meltaguns, or run them at approximately double the minimum size as a character escort, again with meltaguns.  They like to run undivided or with MoN or maybe with MoS & the FNP banner, but that's pretty iffy.

 

 

---------------------------------------

 

 

Putting it all together

 

The main thing I think to focus on right away is getting a solid foundation of troops.  You've got all sorts of cool extra stuff, but you're missing the foundation.  I would strongly recommend

 

1) 1 box CSMs

2) 1 rhino

3) 2x10 cultists purchased secondhand from dark vengeance (try ebay)

 

with the following optional extras:

1) FW trimmed alpha legion shoulder pads - ~5 sets should do you for a while

2) 1 set FW combi weapons for unit champs and such, in a pinch can be used for terminators

3) a set or two of FW Brass Chaos Etchings for decorating vehicles & such

 

I also recommend picking up the Be'Lakor ebook dataslate

 

I know that's a lot of purchases to make when you've already bought so much, but the troops at least really are obligatory at the moment, and though 7e is right around the corner, they're likely to remain such even then.

 

Grabbing a few extras from what you already have, we can round out to something like:

 

Belakor

Sorcerer (undivided, lv3, 4++, spell familiar, maybe convert him to have one of the combi plas)

 

10 CSMs, 2x plas, 1x combi plas on the champ

rhino, maybe extra armor, maybe havoc launcher or combi weapon or dirge caster, but honestly naked's my preference

 

9 CSMs, 1x plas, 1x combi plas on the champ

rhino as above

(sorcerer goes here)

 

Heldrake with flamer

 

3 bikes (or 5 raptors) with 2x meltagun and maybe combi melt on the champ

 

Forgefiend with hades autocannons

 

 

That should be a decent mid sized starting force to tool around with.  Not hyper competitive, but not terrible, either.  A fair chunk of psychic power to take advantage of the upcoming new psychic phase.  You might end up wanting to purchase a couple daemon units depending on how the rules for the daemon summoning lore turn out.

 

You can then add other stuff from your existing collection or new items as you go, based on what you like or don't like about the list as is, or what strengths you feel you could better exploit or weaknesses you might want to shore up.

[HsojVvad]

Thank you very much Malisteen. I have learnt a lot and will reread this a few times to let it sink in. Yes I am going to use Thragosh as Belekor. I have the iPad version of the data slate. I thought the mini looked so cool, so bought the data slate and was so disappointed when I went to the gaming store to buy him and found out he is only available online. 

 

Question is, do I get another DV box set before it goes away (since I also love my DA. Also hoping it would come back repackaged with the new rules)  Problem is, do I get DV or the rule when they come out? I guess I will take the chance of it coming back as a repackage and we get FAQs and the iPad version gets updated. Otherwise I will just use with what I have for now, since this will be a lot of painting and modelling.

 

I see some great convert ions in the WIP forum. What to make what to make? LOL. 

[Dragonlover]

The current rumor is that the new box is Blood Angels and Orks, so you might want to snap up a DV before it sods off.

 

Dragonlover

[MaliGn]

Since you already have one dark vengeance set i wouldn't worry about getting another one just yet, yes it's going to be replaced but buying another copy now won't be that helpful, the bits should stay plenty cheap on ebay for a while yet.

[Sception]

Wait, you already have a DV box?  I missed that.  Do you want a second...  Well, since you play Dark Angels anyway, I would say yes, get a second Dark Vengeance, as well as the extra rhino and CSM box I already mentioned, and then maybe one regular box of cultists, just so that you can run 2 units of 10 without weapon upgrades.  The remaining cultists can be combined with one of the helbrutes for a helcult formation at some future point.

 

As for the chosen, heavy conversion is needed to make the most out of them.  You might consider picking up the FW horus heresy plasmagun pack, giving you enough plasmaguns to convert the chosen into a couple small special weapon squads - though I warn you, converting those models is a bear.

 

Alternatively, you might take bake warp talons instead of raptors, and use the raptor melee arms to convert a more melee oriented chosen unit.  It's a worse unit, but would look better.

 

Either way, I'd set aide the chosen for a while and not worry about them.

 

You probably don't need two monopose brutes, so you might see about selling or giving away the spare helbrute and chaos lord, but the cultists and Dark Angels are quite useful.

 

Then again, if you're already covered on dark angels, I'd just ebay an extra pack or two of cultists instead.

 

Or skip it.  I mean, they aren't ideally equipped, but you do have 2x10 cultists already, and you could call that good enough for now.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Thank you insane psychopath for the great explanation of what I have. Forte and MaiGn thank you as well. Sadly I don't have an option to get HH3. I want it but only getting it through mail I am a buy now get now person. Don't want to pay over $100 and then wait weeks to get it. Mau as we'll make that chaos imperial knight I saw someone do.

There are a few topic - if you check the Heresy area of this fourm or warseer that have a nice summary on the background from the new Heresy book

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?393978-HH3-Extermination-new-background-material

Just I found from reading my copy on the Iron Warriors side, it just give me more idea when it come to converting models.

IP

[Lanfear]

i dont know if it helps you at all, but i would add a scythean, angelius, shredder, Naga, forsaken and Sheperd. this way, you have a nice 25p eThagrosh force of Legion of Everblight for Warmachine/Hordes games

other than that, i wish you very much fun with your new army