AGPO Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I've just finished re-reading Mechanicum, and both the Emperor and Dorn's actions make very little sense to me. Firstly Dorn. Judging by the fact that he manages to land his forces unopposed, he apparently has clear orbital superiority. So he should, given that he has the whole of Battlefleet Solar and Phalanx at his disposal. Given this, why does he not destroy the forces of the Dark Mechanicus from orbit? I'm pretty sure a few orbital strikes would have made a big difference in the defence of Kane, Maximal and Zeth's forges. Doing so would have preserved all the weapons and materials in those forges for the Imperium, cut Horus off from a great deal of his supply lines and preserved all those Skitari, Knight households and Titan Legions for the Imperium, not to mention denying Horus a powerful ally in the Seige of Terra. We've seen from other sources that orbital strikes can be sufficiently accurate and they're certainly powerful enough to have turned the battle in the loyalist's favour. Secondly and much more seriously, the Emperor. He may have a blind spot when it comes to His sons, but as a near omnipotent psyker, it is surely not beyond Him to see the threat that Kelbor Hal represents. He also has the ability to mess with machinery using his powers, and it wouldn't be a stretch to see Him cause Hal's augmentics to suffer a lethal but *completely accidental* malfunction. More simply, given that He can manipulate the future enough to arrange the rise of the Machine Cult, it would surely not have been beyond Him to sequester away a couple of working STCs and provide them to a more suitable leader of the Mechanicum, like Koriel Zeth or alternatively (given the former's atheism) Kane or Maximal. This could have led to an age of technological advancement under a progressively minded but utterly loyal Mechanicum. I loved the book overall, in fact it's one of my favourites of the series, but I couldn't help feeling these plot holes made a couple of supposedly strategically brilliant characters seem a little foolish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW1 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 But the Emperor is repeatedly shown as making major mistakes. I don't think he's the infallible all knowing one he's made out to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 The emperor has to make mistakes for the purpose of the setting of 40k... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I would also not underestimate the defenses of Mars, it probably had very impressive orbital defenses that could put a lot of hurt on Battlefleet Solar (which was probably much smaller back then). How many losses could dorn afford to take? Even the lost of a few ships might be critical in the coming days of the war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Dorn can't guarantee orbital supremacy. Mechanicum ships and the the Ring of Iron (orbiting shipyards, defences and orbital refineries) were rapidly falling into chaos following the release of the scrap code and infighting that followed. Dorn is set to sent a significant portion of his fleet to Isstvan (via Phall) and can't afford to tie up a significant portion of his fleet bombarding or holding space over Mars. Plus another portion of the fleet is being sent as messenger couriers following the problems with warp based communication Planetary bombardments are pretty much out of the question as many of the forges are going to have some of the best shielding around. By comparison Prospero's main shields over their cities withstood the full force of the Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 @Sanct: My understanding was that the Ring of Iron was in the midst of an internal battle, and that the presence of the whole Imperial Fleet in the Solar System could quite capably have turned the tide. If the Mechanicum already held the Ring, it would make little sense for them to have I'd agree with the point about the forges, but surely the traitor titan legions couldn't have had that kind of shielding? Even if say the Imperators were capable of withstanding a bombardment, destroying the Dark Mechanicum's field army would be a significant blow. Heck, if he was desperate he could even take a play out of Horus's book and unleash the life eater before making planet fall to reclaim the weapons and equipment from the forges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 For the same reason why orbital bombardment isn't the answer for everything in 40k: There is something on that world you want intact. Such as, for instance, forges of such size and efficiency that they can make or break the Defense of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Given that the Emperor's alleged "nigh omnipotent psyker powers" failed to detect the ambitions of Erebus and Kor Phaeron, the presence of a Greater Daemon at the Nikea Conclave, Magnus the Red's daemonic pact to halt the Flesh Change, or the thousand and one mental health issues that should have barred Konrad Curze from being given command of an army of supersoldiers, I'd like to propose the startling theory that the Emperor was NOT in fact the infallible all knowing ubermensch a large portion of the fandom claims him to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Quit your heretical babbling! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Near omnipotent has two drawbacks. 1.)You're not omnipotent. 2.)Just because you can tear a hole in the fabric of reality by farting, it has no bearing on your intelligence. From how he has so far been betrayed, the Emperor is the mind an personality of Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory in the body of a fitness freak. Also, orbital strikes would have obliterated the Dark Mechanicus' forges. And since those were the largest forges with the most supplies still in them, securing those assets was a primary objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Near omnipotent has two drawbacks. 1.)You're not omnipotent. 2.)Just because you can tear a hole in the fabric of reality by farting, it has no bearing on your intelligence. From how he has so far been betrayed, the Emperor is the mind an personality of Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory in the body of a fitness freak. Also, orbital strikes would have obliterated the Dark Mechanicus' forges. And since those were the largest forges with the most supplies still in them, securing those assets was a primary objective. I feel this. The Emperor was a colossally intelligent god-like being. However, that doesn't stop him being a sociopath. I personally believe despite his staggering intelligence, the Emperor's ambition and world-view led him to discount facts or plainly obvious observations that contradicted his ideals and vision. Take Magnus breaking the psychic seals on the Imperial Palace to warn the big E about Horus. With his super-psyker skills, shouldn't the Emperor have been able to see that Magnus had good intentions / spoke the truth? Perhaps the Emperor's subconscious prejudices lead him to ignore what was evident in order to vindicate his personal ideology? Although he may be so much more than human, the Emperor's existence is still rooted in humanity's origins. The urge to discount a completely rational and factual argument which opposes something you believe strongly is inherent throughout the human race - at the basic level, it effectively stems from a self-preservation mechanism, along the same lines as when you do something stupid or dangerous, your almost instinctive reaction is to blame an external source. The development of human culture is effectively the story of our species attempting to escape its biological and evolutionary imperatives for societal advancement. The picture painted of the nascent Imperium doesn't suggest that mankind in 30k is any more divorced from its subconscious behavioral ugliness than we currently are, and the Emperor is a reflection of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telhdrat Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Didn't Magnus breaching the seals happen before the civil war on Mars? The Emperor was probably quite busy fighting the daemons and all. Also, I might be wrong but I think that Dorn didn't quite realize just how bad the situation on Mars actually was. If I recall correctly the Imperial Fists were at first supposed to help Kane and the others fight, so they might have intended to capture the traitor forges. Only when they realized what was going on did they change their objective to grab as much as you can and get out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3682965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Scrymgeour Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 All of this hinge son the emperor being .....a good guy I'm fairly certain that he orchestrated the whole thing as a sacrifice to himself to set himself up as a fifth chaos god, worshipped forever in a galaxy of stagnation, hate, war, ignorance and pain Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290926-spoilers-couldshould-mars-have-been-handled-differently/#findComment-3684265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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