Irony, perseverance, or tolerance? - 30k Catherics

[depthcharge12]

Well this topic brings up something that has been nagging my brain for quite some time.

 

Now this is more of a fluff thing, but as we understand it, no religion is tolerated by the Emps...that includes the lightning church, Islam, Judaism, Flying Spaghetti Monster-ites, Cthulu, etc. However, time and again I see the the Catheric Church (assumed to be a gothic word corruption of the Catholic Church) popping up under a few BL books.

 

UE even has on it's map a Catheric monastery/convent (which I'd like to think is in use, but nowhere mentioned I think).

 

Oll Pious, a Catheric, shows up too - maybe just an Abnett thing, or since Pious is before Jesus even lol

 

 

Now I'd like to think that when the Emps showed up on Maccrage he told Guilliman to torch the church, or even after Monarchia, Guilliman would've done something about religion.

 

 

So why do they keep popping up and seem to have some members here and there it seems? As a Catholic myself (ok stop laughing :P) I know that we took our lumps waaaay back, but also were responsible for some violent purges, censorship, wars, etc. Yet I would like to believe whatever the Emperor said, people would still hold on to religion.

 

What are your thoughts? Are the Catherics an irony? Do they just persevere? Or are they some how oddly tolerated (the Emperor is Catholic too! Naaah nah my religion wins :P)?

 

 

 

Now keep it above the belt gentlemen and ladies. I understand many of you have different beliefs, or apathetic, or otherwise, but this is not a debate on religion. I'm just curious about this in the fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

I believe that as humans, there is a fundamental drive in us all that regardless of whether or not it is right, legal or accepted, if we choose to, we are going to do it. And religion is just one of those things Humanity has been doing forever(forever being a general word for "indeterminate amount of time). So in all honesty, the Emperor, having been around since religion was probably born, probably realizes that on some instinctual level that it will always persist.

 

And so that end, I think sometime after "The Last Church", the Emperor came to a realization that not religion can be stamped out. And so, as long as it does not feed the gods and nor does it get in the way of his conqueringbringing the universe into compliance(such as religions like Buddhism which teach to be peaceful rather than warlike) and it keeps its head down, he leaves it alone. Such as a lone monastery on Macragge that most likely doesn't even see use and its true nature is only known to a select few(speculation). Its also why he never ordered a full-scale purge of the Lectitio Divinatus Cult, despite refuting it and its worshiping of him as a god.

 

And remember, Lorgar wasn't reprimanded just because he was religious. He was reprimanded for being religious because his "devotion" slowed him down, spending an unnecessary amount of years guiding a planet not just into compliance, but well beyond it when he could have been, should have been, bringing worlds to compliance.

[Millicant]

Despite a group of people, a planet, or a whole civilization being brought to "compliance" by the forces of the Emperor, religion is a terribly difficult thing to entirely destroy. Sure, an expeditionary fleet can disassociate a government from a religion and prevent its institutionalization, but that won't prevent people from following a religion somewhere.

 

Case in point: chaos cults spring up on imperial worlds all the time. They are rooted out and destroyed where possible, but many exist. The Catheric religion is not seeking to overthrow the planetary governor, offer bloody sacrifices of local children, or rip open a hole to the warp for daemons to flood forth and destroy all life. So, they are probably tolerated/ignored. There are probably even other religions that persevere but Catheric is an easy trace to modern day Catholicism and remember, 40k is written from England. The historical ties there are strong, regardless of individual beliefs.

 

Another interesting question that this brings up, is where are the Catherics in "modern" 40k? Do they exist? Are they deemed heretical? It seems easier for a religion to survive in a society based on no religion (imperial truth) than it does in a society where there is one common and institutionalized religion (the emperor).

[Marshal Rohr]

Religious institutions are integral to lots of development theory in pre-agrarian/industrial regions (like sub-Saharan Africa). In conquest, they don't become a vehicle for sectarian insurgency if they are absorbed and quietly co-opted by the conqueror. Outright banning of religions without subsequent ethnoreligious extermination never works. Which is why the Iconoclasts were specifically tasked with it.

[depthcharge12]

I do think that's a very good way of putting it Kol.

 

Where do you think that religious structure would cross the border? Many religious institutions have a central "head" or leader. Would the Emps try to silence them or just have them swear fealty in exchange for toleration?

 

 

I'd like to think that the Emps would ultimately leave some traditions and such alone if they showed promise or in some way contributed positively to the expansion effort, just like your example how it was Lorgar's slow progression is what hindered him and caused punishment.

 

 

I mean just as some fanfic for my Dark Angels who borrow heavily from the Medieval and "southern gentleman/civil war general" I have some of the recruited marines originally trained by Ereland Catheric warrior monks. The Emps noticed the aspirants had a strong warrior spirit and zeal for duty, so ultimately left the monastery-barracks alone in exchange for serving in his 1st legion.

[Hyaenidae]

Heck, I created an Iron Warrior Warsmith who has been a closet Catheric for close to 500 years, before Horus turned.

 

It is what it is. You can force a man to change his voice, but it's a lot harder to change his heart.

[Kol Saresk]

I do think that's a very good way of putting it Kol.

 

Where do you think that religious structure would cross the border? Many religious institutions have a central "head" or leader. Would the Emps try to silence them or just have them swear fealty in exchange for toleration?

 

 

I'd like to think that the Emps would ultimately leave some traditions and such alone if they showed promise or in some way contributed positively to the expansion effort, just like your example how it was Lorgar's slow progression is what hindered him and caused punishment.

 

 

I mean just as some fanfic for my Dark Angels who borrow heavily from the Medieval and "southern gentleman/civil war general" I have some of the recruited marines originally trained by Ereland Catheric warrior monks. The Emps noticed the aspirants had a strong warrior spirit and zeal for duty, so ultimately left the monastery-barracks alone in exchange for serving in his 1st legion.

I think the Emperor would ultimately adopt a "Separation of Church and State" doctrine. And for clarification, the Separation of Church and State is essentially "The religion does not control the state and the state does not control the religion." Or simply put, "it is not a state religion".

 

Obviously since the "state religion" is the Imperial Creed, which teaches "No religion", there would have to be a closet factor. Most likely it would be similar to how Christianity and Judaism were treated under early Islamic Law, "Do not try and convert others and we leave you alone."

 

While the Emperor understands people about as well as a rock understands the wind,(which is actually a very human trait) he does have an understanding of politics and how society on a general level operates. So while he may not understand why a few hundred deaths of "mere mortals" may have destroyed what little sanity a certain Primarch has left, he does understand the ramifications of religious persecution and how it usually backfires on those who perpetrate. IE, Jewish society was put down by Rome for being rebellious, Rome fell to the early-soon-to-be Catholic Church. The Holy Roman Empire fell apart. The Protestants broke away from the Roman Church. Spain was taken by the Muslimsms. Etc etc etc all the way until now. And those aren't even the highlights, just the tip of the iceberg. That's why when we do see a planet being brought into compliance where its religion is being torn down, there are very few survivors. And considering the Imperium has no qualms about psycho-indoctrination, I'd imagine those survivors undergo "re-education" before they are resettled.

[Wade Garrett]

I think enforcement of the Imperial Truth depends very much on who's doing the enforcement.

 

Guilliman, for instance, would (provided the Emperor isn't looking over his shoulder) loudly proclaim the Truth, tear down the biggest of the churches (sans congregation) and exercise incredible powers of selective blindness and deafness to any reports of continued religious practices, as he has better things to do than massacre Imperial citizens over what they do in their free time.

 

Konrad Curze or Leman Russ, on the other hand...

[b1soul]

Is there any mention of functioning Catheric Church institutions in 30K? I doubt it...there only seems to be mention of individual Catherics (people can practice a religion secretly) and Catheric stuff from the past. 

[Phalanx Warder]

As I see it you have a religion that in theory can trace its roots back to old terra before man took to the stars, and as such the Emp would be familiar with it. Its not some relatively new made up thing that the local shaman came up with, thus reducing the chance of xeno/chaos interference thus turning it into a low priority in terms of eradication. But given that the population around the religion with no involvement in it would slowly come to worship the big E/Imperial truth I think it would wither and fade into history before conflict with the Imperium happens.

[Piano_Sam]

There are two mentions of the Catheric Church in the Horus Heresy, beyond what all has been mentioned here. In Legion, Hurtado Bronzi, I believe, was mentioned as being a devout Catheric, though this was only mentioned at the beginning of the book and not again. In Prospero Burns, Kasper Hawser was raised in a Catheric commune, though wasn't especially devout himself, if I recall correctly.

 

To me, the commune part of the latter implies that the Emps at least tolerated this religion.

[Komrk]

How old is Pious? The oldest reference I've seen from him is Austerlitz which is well after Jesus. Is there anything else I am missing from Oll's story. Same with John, the oldest reference I've seen him make is being in the 7th Cav at Custer's last stand. From what I've seen Grammaticus was at Custer's last stand and a beach landing which I can only assume is World War II, which front it was he doesn't say, and Oll was at Austerlitz and Verdun I believe.

[Piano_Sam]

Something else I'd just considered, though this is purely speculation, is couldn't one assume that the Emperor was the origin of the Catheric Church? This would be to assume that he and Christ were one and the same, which I believe has been speculated on in the last, if not outright stated. Could it possibly be that, because of his connection with this establishment that he might be more...lenient in regard to Cathericism?

 

How old is Pious? The oldest reference I've seen from him is Austerlitz which is well after Jesus. Is there anything else I am missing from Oll's story. Same with John, the oldest reference I've seen him make is being in the 7th Cav at Custer's last stand. From what I've seen Grammaticus was at Custer's last stand and a beach landing which I can only assume is World War II, which front it was he doesn't say, and Oll was at Austerlitz and Verdun I believe.

In the Mark of Calth short featuring Pious, he has an internal moment where he thinks back on being an Argonaut with Jason. This would be well before Christ. Regarding John, I just finished reading Legion and he states unequivocally that he is 1000 years old. I know that there has been other stories which possibly place him as being older, but this was stated by him, and also thought upon in one of his inner moments. Would he lie to himself?

[Komrk]

Something else I'd just considered, though this is purely speculation, is couldn't one assume that the Emperor was the origin of the Catheric Church? This would be to assume that he and Christ were one and the same, which I believe has been speculated on in the last, if not outright stated. Could it possibly be that, because of his connection with this establishment that he might be more...lenient in regard to Cathericism?

How old is Pious? The oldest reference I've seen from him is Austerlitz which is well after Jesus. Is there anything else I am missing from Oll's story. Same with John, the oldest reference I've seen him make is being in the 7th Cav at Custer's last stand. From what I've seen Grammaticus was at Custer's last stand and a beach landing which I can only assume is World War II, which front it was he doesn't say, and Oll was at Austerlitz and Verdun I believe.

In the Mark of Calth short featuring Pious, he has an internal moment where he thinks back on being an Argonaut with Jason. This would be well before Christ.

Oh wow, how could I have forgotten that part. Feel like an idiot now, oh well.

[depthcharge12]

I think actually that Damon Prytanis was present for Custers last stand.

 

 

Something else I'd just considered, though this is purely speculation, is couldn't one assume that the Emperor was the origin of the Catheric Church? This would be to assume that he and Christ were one and the same, which I believe has been speculated on in the last, if not outright stated. Could it possibly be that, because of his connection with this establishment that he might be more...lenient in regard to Cathericism?

How old is Pious? The oldest reference I've seen from him is Austerlitz which is well after Jesus. Is there anything else I am missing from Oll's story. Same with John, the oldest reference I've seen him make is being in the 7th Cav at Custer's last stand. From what I've seen Grammaticus was at Custer's last stand and a beach landing which I can only assume is World War II, which front it was he doesn't say, and Oll was at Austerlitz and Verdun I believe.

In the Mark of Calth short featuring Pious, he has an internal moment where he thinks back on being an Argonaut with Jason. This would be well before Christ. Regarding John, I just finished reading Legion and he states unequivocally that he is 1000 years old. I know that there has been other stories which possibly place him as being older, but this was stated by him, and also thought upon in one of his inner moments. Would he lie to himself?

 

Could also very well be. It's just been hinted at that the Emperor has walked and talked as many famous figures. I believe he said that being a pacifist didn't work out too well.

 

 

Now that I think about it....are the Catherics only mentioned in Mr. Abnett's books and stories?

[Piano_Sam]

I think actually that Damon Prytanis was present for Custers last stand.

Something else I'd just considered, though this is purely speculation, is couldn't one assume that the Emperor was the origin of the Catheric Church? This would be to assume that he and Christ were one and the same, which I believe has been speculated on in the last, if not outright stated. Could it possibly be that, because of his connection with this establishment that he might be more...lenient in regard to Cathericism?

How old is Pious? The oldest reference I've seen from him is Austerlitz which is well after Jesus. Is there anything else I am missing from Oll's story. Same with John, the oldest reference I've seen him make is being in the 7th Cav at Custer's last stand. From what I've seen Grammaticus was at Custer's last stand and a beach landing which I can only assume is World War II, which front it was he doesn't say, and Oll was at Austerlitz and Verdun I believe.

In the Mark of Calth short featuring Pious, he has an internal moment where he thinks back on being an Argonaut with Jason. This would be well before Christ. Regarding John, I just finished reading Legion and he states unequivocally that he is 1000 years old. I know that there has been other stories which possibly place him as being older, but this was stated by him, and also thought upon in one of his inner moments. Would he lie to himself?

Could also very well be. It's just been hinted at that the Emperor has walked and talked as many famous figures. I believe he said that being a pacifist didn't work out too well.

Now that I think about it....are the Catherics only mentioned in Mr. Abnett's books and stories?

Huh! I was thinking the same thing, so I looked up what I could. The only references I can find are indeed in Abnett's work. Hmm...

[Plague Angel]

I'm sure I've seen the word "Catheric" pop up in other writers' works, but I don't recall any Catheric characters that weren't by Abnett. I may be wrong, though, and obviously I'm not going to go back and speed-read all the books to keep an eye out for capital C's.

 

Even if the Emperor was/is the same man that we call Jesus Christ, I don't know that this would make him predisposed to Cathericism. The truth about the Emperor and the opinions he wants others to have about him are in direct contradiction to Catholic teachings, even more so than the Lectitio Divinatus. And a lot of fans agree that the Emperor, as seen in the Heresy novels, wouldn't be too fond of the Imperial Cult as it exists 10,000 years later.

 

I'd be surprised if the Catheric church was still operating as some sort of organized body, but at the same time, some characters are called out as "devout" Catherics, which, in theory, would include regular confession to a priest.

[Sothalor]

I have a suspicion that the Catheric Church members would meet quietly and unassumingly as "community groups" or some such generic term. The era of the Great Crusade isn't yet the paranoid, constantly-under-siege mentality that 40K is, so once the iterators and proclaimers of the Imperial Truth (eg., preachers) deem a world compliant, that's considered done and they move on.

As Kol pointed out, Lorgar was chastised because he was spending too much time on planets he'd already conquered. I imagine that for all the propaganda about the glorious human empire reuniting the stars, joined in unity and purpose, a lot of stuff slipped through the cracks.

Like that bunch of backwards tribals on Davin. Ah, what's the worst they could do?

[Aegnor]

I think in 30k, Catherics are artefacts of the past. Oll Persson/Pious is a Catheric because he's 35,000 years old. References to Catheric churches/chapels etc probably refer to buildings that pre-date a planet's compliance during the Great Crusade.

 

In the case of UR - there were probably Catherics on Macragge before compliance, they probably largely abandoned their faith after Compliance, but because it was a peaceful Compliance and because it was a compliant Primarch's homeworld, they probably didn't insist on demolishing the building.

 

Would be pretty certain such small degrees of flexibility are long gone by 40k.

[Kol Saresk]

Is there any mention of functioning Catheric Church institutions in 30K? I doubt it...there only seems to be mention of individual Catherics (people can practice a religion secretly) and Catheric stuff from the past.

The closest thing we have mention of a functioning locale is Oll's Chapel on Calth. But as far as we know, he is the only one who uses.

 

However, here would be a good way to point out that the first Christians didn't always meet in churches and synagogues. Sometimes they met in each others' homes.

[Adra'Melek]

Is it not just another step that GW are taking to ram it home that the Chaos guys were right? Emperor is a fool, a hypocrite and a tyrant :)

 

The whole cult of the Emperor, meeting in secret, fearful of Space Marines, etc, did the whole "humans need to believe" stuff fine. Then, when the excrement hits the fan, you had guys like Garro coming into the fold. That loses all significance if you have the open tolerance of actual religions. A few guys meeting in secret, facing probable execution if found out, would be fine. Macragge having a functioning cathedral? Erm, no thanks.

[BassWave]

Cathericism might be tolerated by the Emperor because it teaches peace, order and understanding (the chaos gods would not benefit from any of this), and also because of its stance on all things daemonic.

 

I highly doubt it's because he started the religion in a supposed past life as Jesus, considering the Emperor has A LOT more in common with descriptions of the anti-christ.

[Piano_Sam]

I'm sure I've seen the word "Catheric" pop up in other writers' works, but I don't recall any Catheric characters that weren't by Abnett. I may be wrong, though, and obviously I'm not going to go back and speed-read all the books to keep an eye out for capital C's.

 

Even if the Emperor was/is the same man that we call Jesus Christ, I don't know that this would make him predisposed to Cathericism. The truth about the Emperor and the opinions he wants others to have about him are in direct contradiction to Catholic teachings, even more so than the Lectitio Divinatus. And a lot of fans agree that the Emperor, as seen in the Heresy novels, wouldn't be too fond of the Imperial Cult as it exists 10,000 years later.

 

I'd be surprised if the Catheric church was still operating as some sort of organized body, but at the same time, some characters are called out as "devout" Catherics, which, in theory, would include regular confession to a priest.

Well, I just read 'The Last Church,' and I have to agree with you, in the sense that the Emps wouldn't tolerate any holdout religion, not even one he might have started himself. This leads me to wonder, if you take the short story as canon, would the emperor even have founded something like a faith? Another thought occurs, though I'm sure this has been brought up before, the Eldar has/had Gods of Order, the Necron (sorta) had the C'Tan, did mankind have something similar in the past? It couldn't have been the Emperor all along as the only supernatural force for Order for mankind...right?

[SW1]

Doesn't 40k fluff make the emperor the equivalent to a chaos god? Maybe not in all consuming power but enough that faith I'm him is at least partial protection from the gribbly nasties.

 

As faith or emotions in the chaos gods feed them wouldn't the old E have the same if he was freed from his mortal coils?

 

Lol ... A loyalist saying kill the Emperor?

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I raised a similar question last month, that was before I'd seen the catheric monastery in Unremembered Empire: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289322-calth-questions-theoretical-practical/?hl=%2Bcatheric

 

On the digression into Perpetuals, Oll sailed with Jason and the Argonauts. Damon Prytanis was the lifelong (liveslong?) soldier including 7th cavalry and the beach landings on Iwo Jima in WWII which is where/when he was recurited by the Cabal.