Irony, perseverance, or tolerance? - 30k Catherics

[Cerbero666]

We don't know how Cathericism works on 30k. If it's a reference to Catholicism maybe it has devolve to a more ancient state. More like the first christians than the current Catholic Church. Then, more a philosophy or a way of life than a religion. If it's that way then I can imagine the Emperor allowing it. 

 

And the Emperor feed by faith in the Warp is something almost confirmed, I think. It would explain the phenomena like "saints" and "angels" and "miracles" and stuff between his worshipers. It wouldn't surprise me that his ultimate plan was becoming a God to fight the Chaos Gods in their own terrain. Maybe the Heresy was his last sacrifice to obtain victory, the only way the Big Four wouldn't suspect.  

[SW1]

And then some idiot stuck him on the golden bog for eternity.

 

Hmmm ... Good job it's finally starting to breakdown.

[Kais Klip]

Just hopping on to say finally, a B&C thread worthy of its name. As you were, gents.

 

As for Catherism and Guilliman's Empire, I believe that such overt worship would only be possible on Roboute's doorstep; he probably sees it as relatively harmless, and doing less harm than dismantling it might do. As for the majority of the Imperium, keep in mind that as long as it's not on the centurial planetary report, no one cares or, indeed, knows. The imperium is riddled with infestations such as the cult Molech had, and there's no way to scour them out without diverting significant forces from the Crusade effort in the form of Iconoclasts or Alpha Legion. What I wonder is how involved Fist-garrisoned worlds would be.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's one other thing I just realized. Was there any official regulation within the Imperium? From how the Cult of the Lectitio Divinatus was described as being handled in Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames, it was "self-regulated", meaning how it was dealt with was determined by those around it. For example, the Moderati Primus of the Dies Irae, his friend kept discouraging him from practicing it but also encouraged discretion for his safety, while his commanding officer knew all along and didn't say anything until the Betrayal at Istvaan III. And in Know No Fear, Oll said that his neighbors knew about his chapel, neighbors who knew the Imperial Creed just as well as he did, and they did nothing either.

[Daemon2027]

Cults tend to work that way if there is nothing centralised to bring it together. It's how early Christians got by until they started to not take part in Roman religious social events.

 

As long as people like Oll didn't rock the boat and followed the rules, I would imagine local administration would over look his faith.

 

The Emperor may have been the one who shaped Catholicism(in the Warhammer universe that is), which is why he has left it in the shadows. Or he may see it as the vehicle for a religion based around himself, if Godhood is his end game.

[Emperor's Furor]

Doesn't it say in Know No Fear that on the edge of the Imperium such religions were tolerated and the culture was a lot more open to letting you believe what you wanted to believe, kind of sure it said something a long those lines.

[Kol Saresk]

Cults tend to work that way if there is nothing centralised to bring it together. It's how early Christians got by until they started to not take part in Roman religious social events.

 

As long as people like Oll didn't rock the boat and followed the rules, I would imagine local administration would over look his faith.

 

The Emperor may have been the one who shaped Catholicism(in the Warhammer universe that is), which is why he has left it in the shadows. Or he may see it as the vehicle for a religion based around himself, if Godhood is his end game.

Early Christians never partook in Roman Social Festivities. They took part in the Jewish ones until the writings of the books of Romans, Hebrew and Galatians(and possibly other letters that did not survive the tests of time) when the Apostles started to preach that Christians were no longer bound by the Law of Moses, except where it was "the law of the land". Ironically, modern Christians are more likely to partake in the Roman social festivities with events like Easter, Christmas and other "Christian holidays" that are not found in the Bible, but coincide with and parallel the "pagan" holidays.

 

Okay, history lesson over. Yeah, that was pretty much my thought. Outside of the initial act of Compliance where centers of religious worship were as viable a target as actual military centers, it seems that religions, and the practice of such, were self-regulated by the locals. For example, Fenris. Perfect parallel to the Vikings in most respects. Wyrds, rune-casting, everything. Except for the Gods. Lectitio Divinatus. Cathericism. Tribal beliefs. Who knows what else. To the "outside eye", appear merely as "quirks of society". But to the person who knows, it appears as something else. And as long as it is harmless, it is left alone. If it strikes someone as something malevolent, or dangerous, it is then exterminated. Complete and total self-regulation.

 

A lone chapel with a single worshipper who fought for the armies of Mankind and now is merely enjoying retirement as a farmer whose foodcrops now go toward feeding those same armies, not a threat. The tribal inhabitants of a planet that slip into human sacrifices and turn on their Imperial masters, and by doing so disrupt the mining of valuable minerals needed to build the Imperium's weapons of war? That gets wiped out. Etc etc etc.

[Wade Garrett]

I believe Know No Fear mentions that some of Oll's neighbors mocked him as "the Pious" and some of them attended services at the chapel with with him.

 

So he wasn't quite a congregation of one.

[Russ Brother 92]

I realise it's a slightly moot point based on the various quotes/information previous - but have any of you dabbled with the idea of them being not just 30k Catholics but in-fact Cathars (the relatively small but incredibly powerful sub-sect of Catholicism during the Medieval era who based their religious ethos around the bloodline of christ...)?

[Kol Saresk]

I realise it's a slightly moot point based on the various quotes/information previous - but have any of you dabbled with the idea of them being not just 30k Catholics but in-fact Cathars (the relatively small but incredibly powerful sub-sect of Catholicism during the Medieval era who based their religious ethos around the bloodline of christ...)?

Which would drive it back to Catholicism.

But yeah, technically it could be anything. For all we know, its the Nazis but they forget the part about the Aryan master race and picked up prayer beads. O.o

[Dragonkin Arenis]

If we think about it, 30k Catherics live in a society that can be likened to the Ottoman Empire: one, official religion (or lack of) that is practically-universally recognised, with a handful of other religions that are (usually) tolerated and managed in ways that aren't destructive.

 

In 40k, however, welcome to Tudor England, where we have the Dissolution of the Monasteries, burnings-at-the-stake and death sentences for anybody who does not renounce their faith and support the state religion (which was Anglican/Protestantism).

 

As a (loose) Catholic myself, I can see the appeal in imagining that my religion would continue far, far into the future, but what about Islam or Judaism? Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy? What happened to the other religions present in our time? That's something that I'd like to find out.

[tdemayo]

I disagree.  I do not think the Catherics are Catholics.

 

I got the impression that they are some sort of modified descendant of earlier religions, but are not Catholics or Christians as we would define them.  At one point a Biblical quotation is listed as "proto-Catheric."  So the implication is that there have been further developments, changes, lost faiths, etc.  Let's not forget that there have been 30,000 years of human culture between today and the Heresy.  I'm thinking the situation is rather like Dune, where the religions we are familiar with have merged and changed and transformed.  I think it should also be noted that the "Cathars"  were a Christian dualist heresy in the Middle Ages; so Catheric blends several suggestive words.  (Dan Abnett is actually really good at coining future words from ancient roots to add a veneer of versimiliitute to the 30/40k universe.) 

 

It also seems that while the Emperor and Imperium destroy religious organizations and discourage and suppress religion, there are degrees of de facto tolerance, whose limits are politically murky.  A sort of dont-ask/don't tell.

[depthcharge12]

I disagree.  I do not think the Catherics are Catholics.

 

I got the impression that they are some sort of modified descendant of earlier religions, but are not Catholics or Christians as we would define them.  At one point a Biblical quotation is listed as "proto-Catheric."  So the implication is that there have been further developments, changes, lost faiths, etc.  Let's not forget that there have been 30,000 years of human culture between today and the Heresy.  I'm thinking the situation is rather like Dune, where the religions we are familiar with have merged and changed and transformed.  I think it should also be noted that the "Cathars"  were a Christian dualist heresy in the Middle Ages; so Catheric blends several suggestive words.  (Dan Abnett is actually really good at coining future words from ancient roots to add a veneer of versimiliitute to the 30/40k universe.) 

 

It also seems that while the Emperor and Imperium destroy religious organizations and discourage and suppress religion, there are degrees of de facto tolerance, whose limits are politically murky.  A sort of dont-ask/don't tell.

Good point.

 

I might have to whip out some Orange Catholic bible quotes from Dune :P

 

 

I'm really enjoying how this thread is progressing and all your takes on it so far. I'm also glad that it hasn't been derailed or had a vicious arguement. So good job everyone, I'm really liking this one so far.

 

 

Now I would love to hear Dan Abnett's take on all of this...is anyone seeing him at any of the upcoming events and would like to talk to him about it?

 

 

Failing that, I would like to see Laurie Golding or ADBs view on the matter (even though I think the Catherics only pop up in Abnett's work).

 

 

I remember something from Unremembered Empire where John is pretending to be Oll and let's slip something like "Oh God, this is horrible," and the Ultramarine Lieutenant looks at him weirdly and John says he is a renounced Catheric or something.

[Plague Angel]

The "proto-Catheric" quotes were Old Testament quotes, though. Christianity incorporates those texts via its Judaism roots, but those texts are older than Christianity. So them being "proto-Catheric" doesn't stop Catherics from being 100% Roman Catholic.

 

While Catholicism would no doubt change over time, the trappings we've seen about the Catherics show that it's supposed to be identifiable as the same religion, just like the play Guilliman mentions is obviously Hamlet with some letters changed. It's not an unrecognizable far-future religion like the O.C. Bible or the Buddhislamic Faith are. Though its inclusion is probably due to Dune influences.

[Kilofix]

The Emperor unsuccessfully preached and pushed the Imperial Truth;

only and ironically to become the worshipped deity of the Imperial Cult.

 

That is why he is false.

 

To the OP:

It is irony, preserverance, tolerance AND truth.

 

All mankind's roads lead to Chaos.

 

[Plague Angel]

Well, the tolerance people are noting on Macragge is pretty similar to Roman tolerance, which makes sense as Macragge is basically SpaceRome.

[tdemayo]

I'm not sure we've seen enough of the Catheric religion to say much about its tenets.  It seems to believe in a God, is connected to Christianity in some way, and I think Oll  wears a cross symbol.  BTW, wasnt Kaspar Hauser raised by a Catheric seperatist community in Prospero Burns?  As I recall, they were building a giant pyramid or something. I don' t have it with me to look up.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I personally think it's 1. Abnett being Abnett and getting away with something that is usually avoided as a rule; 2. meant to show the Perptuals as being rooted in older culture.

 

Personally it annoys me.

[Hyaenidae]

Personally, I enjoy it, along with all the other bits and pieces that show pre-unification stuff that show through. It gives a feeling the humanity just dragged itself out of Old Night, and that it wasn't a clean process. There are left-overs, scraps of pride and ignorance and faith that won't know the truly brutal pogroms of the God-Emperor's church quite yet.

[Marshal Rohr]

The real issue isn't that Catherics practice religion, it's that in the 40K universe ALL worship of any kind is fuel for the Gods of Chaos. Benevolent dieties don't exist, only the chaos Gods. So any worship by Catherics FEEDS chaos. It doesn't matter if they believe in God, since there is no God in 40K, all their prayers go to one of the 4.

 

This doesn't make much sense, given that the guy who invented the Catherics also wrote about how hymnals and faith kept the chaos gods at bay throughout human history which directly contradicts A DBs all gods are chaos thing.

[Wade Garrett]

The real issue isn't that Catherics practice religion, it's that in the 40K universe ALL worship of any kind is fuel for the Gods of Chaos....

[Citation needed]

 

There is no Chaos God of "religion". The Four want you to be ambitious, despairing, wrathful or hedonistic. They could care less whether you wallow in such while waving a copy of the King James Bible or The God Delusion.

[helterskelter]

we have days of the week named after gods, im good with catherics in 30k, thought it was a nice touch with ol.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wasn't Lorgars whole spiel in Aurelian and TFH that angels and daemons and gods are all just aspects of the Chaos Gods? I distinctly remember Ingethel talking about humanity misunderstanding the gods.

 

 

Also, the Gods apparently feed off the emotions of positive and negative actions. So killing a murderer is a positive, but the act of killing itself feeds Khorne. I don't know why that's the way it is, but at some point the designers wanted chaos to be evil all the time, instead of light and dark (which cheapens them tbh, remember when Khorne was the god of war and brilliant strategies and victories were worship for him? Those were the days).

[Plague Angel]

The real issue isn't that Catherics practice religion, it's that in the 40K universe ALL worship of any kind is fuel for the Gods of Chaos. Benevolent dieties don't exist, only the chaos Gods. So any worship by Catherics FEEDS chaos. It doesn't matter if they believe in God, since there is no God in 40K, all their prayers go to one of the 4.

Asuryan. Isha. Vaul. Khaine. Gork and Mork.

 

There are gods besides the Big Four. There are even Chaos gods besides the Big Four, which is why they're big.

 

Nothing suggests that orks worshipping Mork, Eldar worshiping Asuryen (before he died), or even Sororitas worshiping the Emperor feeds the Ruinous Powers.

[Marshal Rohr]

Except for the fact Khaine, Gork, and Mork ARE Khorne. There used to be Khorne Orks, etc.