teblin Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 So the latest rumours suggest that these guys are squads of Blood Angels that have beaten the black rage. If this happens it's very good news for the BA. It means they're not completely doomed to one day being wiped out by the Rage and Thirst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 So the latest rumours suggest that these guys are squads of Blood Angels that have beaten the black rage. If this happens it's very good news for the BA. It means they're not completely doomed to one day being wiped out by the Rage and Thirst. It also means they lose some of their appeal. Being Honourable, Noble and Loyal to the Emperor even in the face of ultimate defeat (Black Rage) appeals to me so much more. And as others have stated, what would become of the Flesh Tearers if the Rage can just simply be overcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 It also takes away a little edge of their fluff. And they would go from "doomed but fighting on anyway" to beeing "not doomed and extremely bad ass because we can be" which we already got so much of in terms of space marines.... Part of the allure of the blood angels is that they are doomed. Cursed to either die to their own blood or to an opponents sword. But theyre definitely doomed... A nice revealing story in (I think 3rd?) edition codex showed a chaplain (I think) interogating a DC marine in times of peace. He asked questions about what the marine saw as he went further and further into madness. The small story ended with the marine having died of severe seizure as his mind got more and more violent attacks from the curse, which caused his eventual death. The last thing the DC marine saw and was shouting at was Horus, incidentily. The whole "were dying out" stuff is a part of new fluff though.... It used to just be "all blood angels will succumb to the flaw (or death in combat) eventually." but aside from that there wasent any major issues with the chapter. Then it became "OMG the geneseed is deteriating! OMG THEYRE ALL GONNA DIE!!!! Its going faster and faster as time passes on!" Uhm..... Yea, that was a pretty huge fluff change as well Now I dont mind change, if it makes sense somewhat, isent over the top fluffwise (see Draigo for that...) and adds something to the army :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cor3y Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 It's not like we know that every d*ck within the DC that survives, handles to keep in check the rage... so it could just be the ones with most "force of will", like Lemartes himself! So what the heck... as already said, it seems to me that it's always a good moment for being conservative! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 For a galaxy thats on the knife edge of destruction there sure is a hell of alot of hope flying around (and by hope i mean "get out of the Black Rage gaol free card") That depends on how many there are. For example, let's say there are 10 Blood Brothers per Chapter. Out of 1,000 marines that's only 1%. Of course I'm just throwing a random number out there, but just because these guys exist doesn't mean the Black Rage isn't a threat. Even if there are 50 of them out there, that's still only 5%. I sure as hell wouldn't want a 5% chance to keep my sanity. And I doubt that they'll be hundreds of these guys walking around. It's all a matter of perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Even if there is 10 of them in the whole chapter, I am more than sure, you will see all of those every time you are going to face/place BA (assuming GW will make them the new stars of the power-creep-dex) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Luckily GW is really bad at making intentional star players. Sanguinary guard or Sanguinor anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Got the feeling that we may be barking up the wrong tree and that Blood Brothers will have nothing to do with death company or the black rage. But while we are on the topic, what was the name of Rafen's sergeant, Koris or Konis or similar? He took that drink from Inquisitor Stele which caused the onset of black rage, yet he still had moments of clarity where he was aware of what was happening and told the others of what Stele had done. Just an example, but if a Blood Angel has to battle down the rising rage every day or before every battle, is it such a great leap to think he could not still retain enough self-awareness and willpower to overcome it if he falls to it? I like the idea personally, it's a progression. Maybe as time goes on, the psychic backlash from our Primarch's death becomes weaker, or our brothers become more able to cope. This would be possible from an evolutionary or genetic adaptation viewpoint. I do find it funny that when GW introduce something fairly close to what the Blood Angels have been seeking for millenia - if not a cure, a form of reistance to the black rage - people cry out "No! We want to be flawed! It is what makes us who we are" Corbulo would be fuming with ragee if he read this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 For a galaxy thats on the knife edge of destruction there sure is a hell of alot of hope flying around (and by hope i mean "get out of the Black Rage gaol free card") That depends on how many there are. For example, let's say there are 10 Blood Brothers per Chapter. Out of 1,000 marines that's only 1%. Of course I'm just throwing a random number out there, but just because these guys exist doesn't mean the Black Rage isn't a threat. Even if there are 50 of them out there, that's still only 5%. I sure as hell wouldn't want a 5% chance to keep my sanity. And I doubt that they'll be hundreds of these guys walking around. It's all a matter of perspective. For the sake of the chapter Harrower, i hope your right ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I do find it funny that when GW introduce something fairly close to what the Blood Angels have been seeking for millenia - if not a cure, a form of reistance to the black rage - people cry out "No! We want to be flawed! It is what makes us who we are" Corbulo would be fuming with ragee if he read this thread This actually made me laugh thanks Shaezus, I suppose I am jumping the gun on this issue a bit, after all its only a rumour at this point. So ill save my "Rage" for if and when it becomes a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 For the sake of the chapter Harrower, i hope your right What's probably going to happen is the rumor is bollocks and we wasted all this time for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomanyprojects Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Why don't we wait and see what the rules are? If you don't like the idea of brothers surviving the black rage, field them as uber death company and problem solved :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenderDead Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Blah blah love/hate thread about something you have no real evidence for, typical 40k environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 People talk as if the Blood Angels fluff and the black rage has never changed. The 5th ed codex introduced the idea that the curse was getting worse. Before that in third edition it was simply something that overcame all Blood Angels eventually, but in relatively stable numbers. The Flesh Tearers IA was the first to introduce the idea of a degenerative version of the Rage. It was Codex: Angels of Death which first introduced the notion of the Death Company, before which their colour scheme belonged to a unit of regular marines described in the original Chapter Approved book as having "sworn the terrible blood oath of the Blood Angels." The space vampire theme has dropped in and out through several editions too. On the subject of the name, even if it's true people are still complaining a bit much. Unimaginative naming has been part of every Space Marine chapter since they were first concieved. The Blood Angels fight in blood red armour, swear blood oaths, are recruited from a tribe called The Blood, drink blood in their rituals and are led by the Sanguinary Priests and descended from Sanguinius. Likewise, the VI Legion just happened to end up on a planet full of wolves, name themselves the Space Wolves and despite having been engineered in a completely different part of the galaxy have a wierd genetic trait that gives them wolf-like senses and occasionally turns them into werewolves. Their Primarch was raised by wolves and went into (fully mechanised) battles accompanied by them, as do his descendents. They come equipped with such imaginitive units and war gear as wolf tooth necklaces, wolf tail talismans, wolf packs, wolf standards and wolf priests. None of this fluff is any newer than second edition. 40k is grimdark but it is also a bit silly, and always has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapelXIII Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I would hope that instead of it being a unit that has beaten the black rage, it is a unit if brothers that use the red thirst as an advantage while fighting. Giving over to the flaw and using it to strengthen themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Blah blah love/hate thread about something you have no real evidence for, typical 40k environment. Not quite. This thread is civil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I can understand the "new things" are never like we wanted... but really guys... it's not that freaking terrible! Even the fluff makes sense. Lemartes was one of the first to be spared from Astorath's hand, and in the Lemartes fluff, it's said that it gives hope for the entire chapter. However, unlike Mephiston, Lemartes hasn't actually overcome the Black Rage - he's still very much right in the middle of it. The difference between him and the rest of those that succumb is that he was able to stay lucid long enough to convince Astorath not to just chop his head off. It is important to note that he stays in stasis at all times, being released occassionally just long enough to fight a battle. Lemartes doesn't provide any hope for the Chapter - he is still very much doomed; we all know the fate that is awaiting him. If anything, he's cursed more than the others, because he has chosen to continue to fight and serve in the only way that he can, instead of taking the option of release and ease of his soul, that those whose minds have been completely lost to madness are granted. Mephiston is the character that provides any hope for the Chapter - he's the only one in Studio background material (I can't speak for BL novels), who has actually made it through to the other side and come out intact. Do the Blood Angels players here on the boards really support the concept of a new unit of these statis-bound warriors? It really would take everything that is exceptional about Lemartes and throw it right out of the window. Furthermore, there is the more practical matter of necessity - disregarding the fluff-destroying aspects of this possibility, and looking toward the army list itself, where would they fit in? The Blood Angels are already fortunate enough to be filled with Elite infantry, and especially Jump Infantry units. With Honour Guard, Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Death Company, and then regular Assault Squads as Troops, where on Baal are these so-call Blood Brothers going to fit in? What role are they going to fill that isn't already ably filled by other options? I'd much rather get something new in the army list that we can actually put to use. Regards, Valerian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I like the idea of them harnessing the red thirst to aid them in battle instead of it being a desire to drink blood etc, they use it to drive their abilities even further Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Yep, harnessing the Red Thirst rather than overcoming the Black Rage would be far less problematic and keep our special characters special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I'm not against the idea of a new unit, or the fluff expanding/getting improved, but if there's enough brothers who "have beaten the Black Rage" to warrant a new squad in-game because they are so common, it just doesn't make sense, unless they change a fundamental part of the BA's fluff. I mean, Death Company(despite their fame) are quite rare, which is represented in game in that you're limited to only one unit per army(unless you specifically pick the High Chaplain.) If suddenly you can field even one squad of brothers who have beaten the rage, that implies that they are about as common as Death Company. I'm skeptical because the feeling I get is that someone came up with the idea "wouldn't it be cool if we could make a new unit that have overcome the Black Rage"(just like somebody came up with the idea "wouldn't it be cool if Space Wolves are actually riding on wolves!"), not taking into account that it invalidates a ton of the previous background and novels, and makes the BA and successors lose much of their flavour as the doomed heroes. And also, nothing stops you from creating your own fluff, if you think the idea is cool there is room in the canon for making up fluff about your unit of Vanguard/Honour Guard/etc. There's just no reason to make such a massive retcon IMHO. And if you seriously think it's a good idea because it means that the BA has a chance to survive, it's basically the same thing as wanting GW to change the Dark Angels fluff and make them forgive all the Fallen who haven't turned to worshipping Chaos, because you symphatize with the poor bastards... I'm really hoping it's just a semantic mistake, and the source meant that they are currently keeping the Black Rage in check, or harnessing the Red Thirst or something similar. I would actually be okay with something similar to the Relic vehicle-rule that Forge World uses, only allowing you to field them if your army is led by a Reclusiarch/Special Character, to represent how extremely rare they are. But something in me says that GW won't choose that approach... Sorry for the wall of text, but I just want to show that I'm not raging, I'm just skeptical. We'll have to wait and see. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I'm not against the idea of a new unit, or the fluff expanding/getting improved, but if there's enough brothers who "have beaten the Black Rage" to warrant a new squad in-game... This is a pretty huge assumption. As someone has mentioned, if 1% of battle brothers can defeat the Black Rage, that's still 100 battle brothers, or 10 per company. That's enough for me to feel pretty good about fielding a five or ten-man squad of Blood Brothers in my army. Sure, there's only one squad of these guys in the Knights of Blood Fifth Company - and all of them are here! That's fine by me. There's only one Dante or Mephiston in the entire galaxy, and I don't feel bad about putting him in my army. The situation could still be pretty grimdark if only 2% or 3% of those who succumb to the Rage can defeat it, and that's enough to double or triple the number. It looks like GW is getting out of the telling us what we can and can't put on the table, and that's cool. But a single squad with an awesome backstory that defies the prior fluff? I'm cool with that. It's only a few battle brothers and a single squad on the table. That's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I understand that this is a pretty big fluff change so a lot of people won't like it, but before anyone gets to worked up let's try to remember that this is an unconfirmed rumour and may well be fake or misinterpreted. We are still a good 3 months out from a BA release at best. I agree if they really are called Blood Brothers.... Well that is a terribley uncreative name. [\quote] Yeah, I'm not even a Blood Angels players and I'm not liking that. Also because I have DIY chapter called the blood brothers. Seriously it's linked in my signature. I wonder if I could play the legal game with that..... Doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I'm not against the idea of a new unit, or the fluff expanding/getting improved, but if there's enough brothers who "have beaten the Black Rage" to warrant a new squad in-game... This is a pretty huge assumption. As someone has mentioned, if 1% of battle brothers can defeat the Black Rage, that's still 100 battle brothers, or 10 per company. That's enough for me to feel pretty good about fielding a five or ten-man squad of Blood Brothers in my army. Sure, there's only one squad of these guys in the Knights of Blood Fifth Company - and all of them are here! That's fine by me. There's only one Dante or Mephiston in the entire galaxy, and I don't feel bad about putting him in my army. The situation could still be pretty grimdark if only 2% or 3% of those who succumb to the Rage can defeat it, and that's enough to double or triple the number. It looks like GW is getting out of the telling us what we can and can't put on the table, and that's cool. But a single squad with an awesome backstory that defies the prior fluff? I'm cool with that. It's only a few battle brothers and a single squad on the table. That's fine. How do you get those numbers? 1% of a chapter is 10 brothers, and the "Blood Brothers" would have to outlast a whole generation of marines falling to the Black Rage to even reach that number! Anyway, I think your argument is pretty valid. Of course you should be able to field anything that exists in the canon, no matter how rare the unit is. I just really hope they won't replace a unit that we already have. F'rex: "Blood Angels battle-brothers can only earn Veteran status by beating the Black Rage!"... ugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 A little off topic but, I would have really liked to see GW run with the Erelim (even sound way better that Blood Brothers) that Andy Smillie wrote about in his (really) short story Gabriel Seth: The Flesh Tearer. He described them as being similar to chaplains but they were Astoraths honour guard so to speak, painted in all black apart from the chapter symbol on their poldrons and were as dark mirrors to the Sanguinary Guard who stood in the light with Dante... oh but i can dream :) Might have to make my own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 A little off topic but, I would have really liked to see GW run with the Erelim (even sound way better that Blood Brothers) that Andy Smillie wrote about in his (really) short story Gabriel Seth: The Flesh Tearer. He described them as being similar to chaplains but they were Astoraths honour guard so to speak, painted in all black apart from the chapter symbol on their poldrons and were as dark mirrors to the Sanguinary Guard who stood in the light with Dante... oh but i can dream Might have to make my own You already have the option to take the Erelim (bottom of page 84 of your 5e codex....paint black). V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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