IC, Slay The Warlord, First Blood

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Let me set the scene: A Space Marine Captain, our brave Warlord, has joined up with his Command Squad, and advanced towards the perfidious xenos. Said xenos takes advantage of placement and/or Precision Shots, and kill our galant Captain. The xenos gloat, as they have gotten Slay the Warlord on the first game turn.

 

But does he also give up First Blood?

 

The whole thing came up in a discussion regarding certain rule at the local gaming club. I held that First Blood would also be scored, since the Warlord, being an IC, in his capacity as a dead Warlord, was no longer part of a unit, and this "reverted" to being a unit of one at the end of the phase. Countering this argument came the reply that being dead and removed from the game, his IC no longer had any bearing of the game, and due to being off the table, couldn't "revert" to being anything. The rulebook turned out to be less than helpful, having examined both the Characters section and the box containing rules for ICs (the example there assumes a unit being killed off and the IC being left, not the other way around).

 

Comments, ideas, dry wit?

[Dam13n]

The way we've always played it is that if the Warlord is the model slain first he would give up:

- Slay the Warlord (obviously)

- First Blood (because, although he's attached to the unit, they effectively separate from him upon his death, so he's a unit that's been wiped out)

- A Kill Point (if that's the mission being played, because he's a unit that's been wiped out.)

 

I don't have my BRB on me at the moment, so can't comment on exact RAW at the moment.

[Morollan]

I can't find anything either way in the rulebook and would suggest this is just one of those situation where common sense has to apply. The IC and the unit are separate entities in pretty much every way and just join together temporarily. When no longer joined together (til death do us part) they are once again separate entities and the IC is a unit that has been removed as a casualty, therefore awarding First Blood.

[SvenONE]

Yeah I'm with Morollan.  They are temporarily joined and separate on death.  But Gadzooks, what kind of precision shots hit you, and how on earth did you fail so many LoS AND Armor/Invuln saves.

[Dam13n]

All it takes is one precision shot with a combi-melta that wounds, one failed look-out-sir and one failed 4++ and the Captain is slag.

So that's a 6 followed by a 2+ followed by a 1 followed by a 1-3... So law of averages that equals 1/6 x 5/6 x 1/6 x 1/2 = 5/432 chance.

[Quozzo]

5/423 is about 1/85 so its not as rare as getting the opportunity to do so.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Yeah I'm with Morollan.  They are temporarily joined and separate on death.  But Gadzooks, what kind of precision shots hit you, and how on earth did you fail so many LoS AND Armor/Invuln saves.

It was merely a discussion using a hypothetical scenario, not the result of an actual game. It began with yours truly remarking that a Warlord that fell before any other units were taken down would result in both Slay the Warlord and First Blood, and a fellow at the table (we were having a workshop day, painting our stuff) piped in to disagree as shown up top.

[Gentlemanloser]

/devils advocate

 

An IC joins a unit for all intents and purposes, and remains that way until they leave.  Removal as a casualty isn't the same as leaving a joined unit.

 

So basically the enemy has killed one member of the unit, and should not score First Blood.

[Leonaides]

in that case he's also not killed the warlord either - since the entitiy known as the warlord has become part of a unit and the unit is still in play...

[Gentlemanloser]

The unit isn't the warlord though.

 

The Warlord is an individual mini.  Unless you want to claim that the Warlord Trait aplies to the entire unit as well...

 

No access to my BRB at work, what are the IC rules for leaving a unit?

[SvenONE]

 

Yeah I'm with Morollan.  They are temporarily joined and separate on death.  But Gadzooks, what kind of precision shots hit you, and how on earth did you fail so many LoS AND Armor/Invuln saves.

It was merely a discussion using a hypothetical scenario, not the result of an actual game. It began with yours truly remarking that a Warlord that fell before any other units were taken down would result in both Slay the Warlord and First Blood, and a fellow at the table (we were having a workshop day, painting our stuff) piped in to disagree as shown up top.

 

 

Ahh, I thought it was a result of a situation on the table.

 

After reading FB and IC rules, it's kind of funny.  It actually looks like it WOULDNT be first blood only because like others have said the rules for IC specifically state that for rules purposes he is a part of the unit.  Conversely however, if the unit is killed off then he returns to being a single model unit.

 

So in a round of shooting, say the 5-man command squad is in a conga line with the Warlord at the back and Enemy Squad A inflicts 5 unsaved wounds, First Blood is scored because the Command Squad as a unit has been killed, and the moment the IC is alone, he becomes his own squad.

 

Alternatively it might be that the warlord is 5th in line, with an apothecary behind him (say he has 3 wounds), and Enemy Squad A inflicts 8 unsaved wounds (he failed all his FNP!!) then you don't get First Blood because the unit the IC was a part of is still alive.

 

It's interesting because Dedicated transports are "part' of a unit only in purchase only.  But blowing it up first turn counts as FB since the rules state that despite it being purchased in the same slot, it's a separate unit (same goes for combat squadding anything).

 

In my shop we've always seemed to play as a "if it comes from an FOC slot, it's eligible for FB"

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, here's the RAW on ICs leaving units;

 

 

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement
phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave
during any other phase - once shots are fired or charges are declared, it
is too late to join in or duck out!

 

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or
the unit is locked in combat, falling back or has gone to ground.
He cannot join a unit that is locked in combat or falling back. If an
Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit
are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the
following phase.

 

If all the other models are killed, the IC leaves the unit.  Either that or he moves out of coherency in the movement phase.

 

Those are the only two ways given of leaving a unit.

 

The IC being killed isn't one of them.  An IC that is part of a unit for all intents and purposes, that is then killed while the unit is still alive, is counted simply as a member of that unit.

 

And would not give up First Blood until the entire unit was destroyed.

 

Edit: It explicitly states he cannot leave in any other phase.  Which would include the enemy shooting phase where he was killed.

 

For Completeness;

 

 

First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty
during the game is worth I Victory Point to the opposing
player at the end of the game.

 

 

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the
unit for all rules purposes

[Dam13n]

Purge the alien, page 127:

"Independent characters ... are separate units and award victory points if they are destroyed."

[Gentlemanloser]

IC's are individual units.

When not joined to another unit.

Edit: And what happens when you're not playing Purge?

[Dam13n]

1 - Purge is the only mission in the BRB where a IC can offer a kill point to the opponent

2 - If the IC was on his own, of course he would offer a kill point as a separate unit, so why bother specifying? Unless to tell us that the IC offers a kill point whether he's joined to a unit or not.

3 - It sets precedent for first blood in other missions, although nothing more than that.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

1 - Purge is the only mission in the BRB where a IC can offer a kill point to the opponent

 

Apart form every other mission that uses First Blood. ;)

[Dam13n]

But first blood =/= kill point.  Similar mechanic, but not quite the same thing.

 

One can make the case that in the purge mission (at least) that killing an IC would grant both a kill point and therefore first blood by the wording of the mission special rules.  Otherwise what's the point in specifying that ICs grant a kill point when they are killed (as they count as separate units for this purpose).

 

That in itself sets a precedent that it arguably should apply across all missions, but that is an assumption, nothing more.

 

So you could (and have) made a case that in other missions, that it would not do so.  I'm not disputing the validity of that, but it's not how I would choose to apply the rules.  It's also not how anybody I actually play with applies it either.

 

Seeing as we are due to see pre-orders for 7th edition this evening (where I am) and the new rules will be out the following week, I'm not sure this is something we need get worked up about.  After all, the new rule-set may have altered wording that makes this more (or less) clear.

 

We could always re-commence a RAW based debate then.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

In other words, I was wrong, and my opponent was right. C'est la vie.

[Grimtooth]

The IC dies and you remove him from the board.  The following turn, when said unit moves without the IC maintaining coherency because he is no longer on the board, then First Blood is awarded as he is not longer part of the unit.  Of course if you want to insist that he is still part of the unit even after dying and being removed from the board, then I will insist that you can no longer move said unit or assault with them for the rest of the game because you have a member of the unit no longer on the board and you cannot maintain unit coherency without the IC present.

[Gentlemanloser]

As long as you insit that *for every single unit that loses a casualty*.

 

Which is obviously bogus.

[Raeven]

The rule for First Blood says, "The first Unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty.."

 

The IC meets the requirement of being a unit of it's own, even when joined with another unit.  The "of any kind" points to the distinction.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The IC meets the requirement of being a unit of it's own, even when joined with another unit.

 

How does it?

[Raeven]

FOC.

 

edit : Hit the wrong button.  To finish ...

 

All units in the FOC are separate units, correct?  Even when joined with another unit, the Independent Character does not shed the fact that it is a separate unit according to the FOC.  He can act independently as soon as he separates from any unit he is attached too.  Well, since then an Independent Character character meets the requirement of being a unit, he meets the requirement of being a unit of any kind.  Even if that unit is temporarily joined with another unit.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

FOC.

 

edit : Hit the wrong button.  To finish ...

 

All units in the FOC are separate units, correct?  Even when joined with another unit, the Independent Character does not shed the fact that it is a separate unit according to the FOC.  He can act independently as soon as he separates from any unit he is attached too.  Well, since then an Independent Character character meets the requirement of being a unit, he meets the requirement of being a unit of any kind.  Even if that unit is temporarily joined with another unit.

Which would make IG platoons a beast. Almost a dozen units to kill to get First Blood, since they're all a single unit on the FOC.

[Gentlemanloser]

Even if that unit is temporarily joined with another unit.

 

But the IC doesn't leave the unit he is attached to.

 

I've quoted above the only two ways (by RAW) for an IC to leave a unit.

 

Being removed as a casualty *isn't* one of them.  Most likely an oversight due to lax rules.

 

Edit: FoC aside, how can a unit, be another unit, at the same time?

 

There's no way for a mini in a unit to also be another unit.  You'd have to show how the IC can be classed as a unit, while part of a unit, for them to give up first blood when they die.