Eberious Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 If you upgrade 3 of the vets to apothecary, champion, and standard bearer. Are they still counted as vets when choosing melee/ranged weapons, do they have access to those options ? Or is it just the two that are left over? Thanks for any help, as right in the middle of modeling them and the question crossed my mind. cheers ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Generally it seems to be accepted that the Banner Bearer is a Vet with a Banner and can still take other ranged/melee upgrades. The champ and the apothecary however become champ and apothecary and cannot take other upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eberious Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 That's what I thought as I was about to start modeling upgrades for the apothecary. :( Never mind, saves me the hassle of modeling the options. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I figured I'd post this here (as this seems to be the most recent tread regardng this topic) rather then start a whole new tread... Since I was wondering which way GW seemed to want to go regarding apohecaries and wargear, I figured I'd take a quick look at the iBook version of C:SM and quickly realsed that it does allow an apothecary or company champion to take extra weapon options (not just because the tool is too dumb to figure it out; it does, after all, prevent you from selecting both a heavy and special weapons in a tac squad if it's not full...), letting me take 5 bolters, 5 power weapons and 5 storm shields (as an example) even if I add an appthecary and champion to the unit... So, thoughts? Or, if someone else has the iBook too, is this something that has been "fixed" in a later update? (according to my ipad, there's been an update to the book at some point, but whenever I try to update mine, the download fails...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The problem with any computerised army builder, whether it's made by GW or a 3rd party is that it invariably contains mistakes. The rules as written in the hard cover codex (and in the actual army list in the digital edition) preclude an Apothecary, which has a different model description for purchasing wargear that states "Any Veteran may..." because he isn't a Veteran any more. That the army selector program built into the digital codex allows something that isn't allowed by the actual written army list suggests an error. Now the question is then "is the army list entry (which is the same across all formats) wrong, or is the army selector program (which isn't)?" The logical conclusion is that it's the army selector program. I'd point to the Chaos Codex Chosen entry as precedent, which has upgrades that specify "the chosen champion", the regular "chosen" and "any model". If an Apothecary/Champion should have access to a special weapon, the (errataed) army list entry should say "Any model may take a weapon from the special weapons section of the wargear list". It instead states (in the errata) that "Any Veteran may..." So... No, an Apothecary/Champion may not purchase a special weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 As an officially released tool built into an actual codex, I'd be hard pressed to argue against it. As Damus Ragnok alluded, our interpretation of the written rule is the 'generally accepted', but by no means guaranteed to be what GW or the author intended. The digital codex discrepancy could simply be another hidden correction that will never make it into a FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The other cheeky tactic they employ with their language is usually make the veteran trade in another critical piece of wargear that allows them to further upgrade, for instance it might say they exchange their Boltgun/Bolt Pistol for X, which then makes them ineligible for getting say a relic blade or Narthecium. I don't know how the C:SM is, but the Apothecary trades his bolt pistol in for the Narthecium, limiting further what he can take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The other cheeky tactic they employ with their language is usually make the veteran trade in another critical piece of wargear that allows them to further upgrade, for instance it might say they exchange their Boltgun/Bolt Pistol for X, which then makes them ineligible for getting say a relic blade or Narthecium. I don't know how the C:SM is, but the Apothecary trades his bolt pistol in for the Narthecium, limiting further what he can take. The Apothecary does not trade his Bolt pistol for anything, he keeps it. On page 88 it lists each model type in the command squad. The Apothecary has a bolt pistol and chainsword. Since this page makes a point of pointing out each of the 3 types of models in this unit(Apothecary, Champion, Veteran) I think that further reinforces that the two specialist's are not Veterans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The other cheeky tactic they employ with their language is usually make the veteran trade in another critical piece of wargear that allows them to further upgrade, for instance it might say they exchange their Boltgun/Bolt Pistol for X, which then makes them ineligible for getting say a relic blade or Narthecium. I don't know how the C:SM is, but the Apothecary trades his bolt pistol in for the Narthecium, limiting further what he can take. The Apothecary does not trade his Bolt pistol for anything, he keeps it. On page 88 it lists each model type in the command squad. The Apothecary has a bolt pistol and chainsword. Since this page makes a point of pointing out each of the 3 types of models in this unit(Apothecary, Champion, Veteran) I think that further reinforces that the two specialist's are not Veterans. I would typically support this whole heartedly. However, my point is more about the fact there is an official Games Workshop product in place that specifies differently. This product is available in a digital only format, which we know they do not publish comprehensive list of changes for. This is not a third party program or database, nor licensed to any other company. This is a GW product, publish date the same as the physical copy (September 7th, 2013). Force Requistion in Codex: Space Marines Enhanced Edition was last (specifically, by name) updated on October 4th, 2013, making it the most recently published GW product (that contains the title Codex, thereby carrying the full weight as such as any other digital Codex does) to address this unit. All that leads us down the path that, perhaps, our past interpretations regarding this have been... flawed. New information in place, leading to new conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Hidden cookies in gw rules are generally either writing mistakes by gw or reading mistakes by the reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Hidden cookies in gw rules are generally either writing mistakes by gw or reading mistakes by the reader. So, then the question is, which is the real cookie? Personally, I'm on the page where of an Apothecary isn't a Veteran for upgrade purposes. This also sucks from a Templar perspective because it limits the number of Neophytes allowed to join a Crusader squad with a Sword Brother. Until an FAQ comes out to clearly say such, that is the RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The other cheeky tactic they employ with their language is usually make the veteran trade in another critical piece of wargear that allows them to further upgrade, for instance it might say they exchange their Boltgun/Bolt Pistol for X, which then makes them ineligible for getting say a relic blade or Narthecium. I don't know how the C:SM is, but the Apothecary trades his bolt pistol in for the Narthecium, limiting further what he can take. The Apothecary does not trade his Bolt pistol for anything, he keeps it. On page 88 it lists each model type in the command squad. The Apothecary has a bolt pistol and chainsword. Since this page makes a point of pointing out each of the 3 types of models in this unit(Apothecary, Champion, Veteran) I think that further reinforces that the two specialist's are not Veterans. I was speaking to the DA codex, which I believe is worded differently than C:SMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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