Dorn and Perturabo

[Perrin]

Surely it must have crossed Horus' mind while organising the campaign against Demba that this could very well happen to him sometime soon if he wasn't up to the task.

Organize the campaign? Horus' s plan for Davin was "We all run right at the thickest concentration of enemy forces waving our chainswords. I'll be out in front."

This takes organization? (Angron: "No. No it does not.")

Not to mention the ham handed, subtle as a brick to the face way Erebus manipulated him into it.

"Horus. This guy said you stink. But whaaaatever you do, don't lead the assault in person. Doooooon't lead the assault in person...no, stop, come back."

The only way he could have been any less subtle is if he had a 200 voice choir of XVII serfs follow him around chanting "This is shady! This is shay-di!" to the tune of "O Fortuna".

"False Gods" Horus isn't a mythical legend, he's a blustering manchild who stumbles into obvious traps and is suckered by the most blatant lies imaginable.

Really? That whole post just to pick up on "organising the campaign"? If you disagree with the point I made I'd at least expect a bit more than comedic exaggeration over three words

OT, I agree with the thing about Primarchs being overexposed and humanised. Luckily, ADB has said that Master of Mankind will not be from the Emperor's POV, so at least we won't have the same problem with him.

[Hyaenidae]

 

Sometimes, it's ok. Horus's acid trip with Erebus and Magus on davin was fine.

This would be the one where the Beloved Son, the one Primarch that the Emperor was truly a father too, fell from grace because the man pretending to one of his beloved sons that died showed him a vision where people built statues of Sanguinus and not him.

 

Certainly, it's a fine example of Primarch thought processes being completely beyond human understanding, with "WAAAAAAH! RUSS AND KHAN GOT STATUES AND I DIDN'T! WAAAAAAAAAAH!" leading to the murder of one's parent and billions of others.

 

OR it's just awful, awful writing.

 

Attempts at humour aside, I didn't say I liked the scene. But I can see the necessary evil in needing to say it out loud. Because, apparently, folks can't just use their imaginations anymore, they need everything spelled out for them in bright neon letters. But that's an issue I have with the current state of humanity in general, and I'm not going to get into that here.

 

It's all awful writing in the end, because there's no way to make everyone happy. There isn't a single way that anyone could have written that scene that everyone could have agree with it's conclusion.

 

Folks have problems with the writings of Shakespeare. With Ray Bradbury. With Heinlein. With Jules Verne. Because everyone is a critic, and so the only logical answer  to the non-stop critisism of every soul with internet access is that it's all bad writing, across the entire globe. Obviously.

 

Fire is bright and fire is clean. Burn it all, and everyone's happy.

 

"False Gods" Horus isn't a mythical legend, he's a blustering manchild who stumbles into obvious traps and is suckered by the most blatant lies imaginable.

 

None of the primarchs are mythical figures anymore. Which is, again, my point. I had hope in Horus Rising. I kept the hope, up until Fulgrim, when I realized that the Primarchs were being cheapened into normal people with fantastic powers. The X-Men of 30k. The Fantastic 18. Look too closely at any fine piece of jewelry, and it's luster fades as you find all it's imperfections. Some things are better appreciated from a distance.

 

 

To be honest, first captains and at least one or two others per Legion get some good air-time in the novels.

 

I was just using the "big names" as an example. Hundreds of thousands of Legionaries across 18 Legions gives plenty of room for other legends and heroes / villains to be exposed and expanded upon.

 

Best stories so far in the Heresy, in my humble opinion? The Crimson Fist, Little Horus, The Iron Within. Absolute proof that you don't need to be in a Primarch's head, or from their general point of view. Proof that there is more room for new characters (I had a little man-crush on Bion Henricos and Tauro Nicodemus for a while. Truth be told, I still love Tauro). Proof that Primarchs still have room for majesty and development, from a distance, that still leaves an air of mystery around them. (Perturabo in The Crimson Fists is still the best representation of him I've seen yet.).

 

Again, it's my personal taste. My version of the 'burning of the literature', if you will. Make of it what you want.

[Wade Garrett]

Heathens:

 

On the one hand, I agree with you that pleasing everybody is impossible, and that the Fall of Horus is one of those things that is SO BIG! SO IMPORTANT! SO INTEGRAL TO THE SETTING! that whether it was written by McNeil, Abnett, ADB, or the ghost of John Milton, a significant portion of the fandom would hate it.

 

But I still think that Horus in False Gods...after Lord of the Night and Prince of Crows, I can understand why the Night Lords turned. After The First Heretic, I can see why Lorgar did what he did. A Thousand Sons was a good explanation for how the XV damned themselves.

 

False Gods? Horus is shown a vision of the future. Horus is shown the person who produced that vision is a filthy liar. Horus loudly proclaims he knows the vision was likely a lie...Horus does what the filthy lying liar wanted him to do all along.

 

I mean, some of us like our steaks bloody rare, some of us want them charred black, a few like them medium well done, but we can all agree that if the waitress walks out and smashes the plate over your head, that was not an enjoyable steakhouse dining experience, right?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Back in the old days everyone clamoured for more and more information about the Primarchs because, though there was some, there was never really enough to suit everyone's desires. Now though, with the advent of the Heresy setting being realised, there is more and more information out there and quite frankly it is true when people say "familiarity breeds contempt"

[helterskelter]

the only thing erebus lacks is a twirly moustache and megatron/serpentor shouting you have failed me for the last time starscream/cobra commander every book. how he convinced horus and magnus couldn't is a bloomin mystery... i like mystery though and share heathens world view. Maybe we need more to be left guessing as the heresy goes on, if they do a scouring i don't want to know how dorn really dies, i don't wish to know what happens to sevatar. Yeah i like my imagination better, plus when i read its like watching a film in my head anyway

[Marshal Rohr]

Back in the old days everyone clamoured for more and more information about the Primarchs because, though there was some, there was never really enough to suit everyone's desires. Now though, with the advent of the Heresy setting being realised, there is more and more information out there and quite frankly it is true when people say "familiarity breeds contempt"

First, glad you're back :P

 

Second, the quality of the info is what makes people mad. Vulkan being stabbed with a fork and comic book villain Curze isn't what people want, they want more A D-B style Primarchs.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Back in the old days everyone clamoured for more and more information about the Primarchs because, though there was some, there was never really enough to suit everyone's desires. Now though, with the advent of the Heresy setting being realised, there is more and more information out there and quite frankly it is true when people say "familiarity breeds contempt"

First, glad you're back

Second, the quality of the info is what makes people mad. Vulkan being stabbed with a fork and comic book villain Curze isn't what people want, they want more A D-B style Primarchs.

Nice to be remembered!

Aye, but that ties in to familiarity. People are now getting to know, in-depth, the Primarchs and how GW accepts them to be portrayed. That people find those representations contemptible is only right and just, as fandom is what makes something great.

[Karthak]

Back in the old days everyone clamoured for more and more information about the Primarchs because, though there was some, there was never really enough to suit everyone's desires. Now though, with the advent of the Heresy setting being realised, there is more and more information out there and quite frankly it is true when people say "familiarity breeds contempt"

First, glad you're back

Second, the quality of the info is what makes people mad. Vulkan being stabbed with a fork and comic book villain Curze isn't what people want, they want more A D-B style Primarchs.

Nice to be remembered!

Aye, but that ties in to familiarity. People are now getting to know, in-depth, the Primarchs and how GW accepts them to be portrayed. That people find those representations contemptible is only right and just, as fandom is what makes something great.

Not everyone dislikes what the authors are doing with the Primarchs.

[Emperor's Furor]

To be honest everything that happens with the Primarchs impacts majorly on my choice of legion. I've ruled out a number of legions solely because I dislike their Primarch.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Back in the old days everyone clamoured for more and more information about the Primarchs because, though there was some, there was never really enough to suit everyone's desires. Now though, with the advent of the Heresy setting being realised, there is more and more information out there and quite frankly it is true when people say "familiarity breeds contempt"

First, glad you're back

Second, the quality of the info is what makes people mad. Vulkan being stabbed with a fork and comic book villain Curze isn't what people want, they want more A D-B style Primarchs.

Nice to be remembered!

Aye, but that ties in to familiarity. People are now getting to know, in-depth, the Primarchs and how GW accepts them to be portrayed. That people find those representations contemptible is only right and just, as fandom is what makes something great.

Not everyone dislikes what the authors are doing with the Primarchs.

Never said they did, at any point, ever... Which makes this totally irrelevant.

[malorn24]

I love having more about the Primarchs and I do my best not to expect not too much from them. The only part I never liked about them is when the authors talk about space marines wanting to weep when they lay eyes on thier Gene Sire. But I get it, they are supposed to be super uber cool. No one is ever going to completley love what is written about the Primarch you favor the most. Reallity rarely lives up to expectation.

I don't identify with the chaos theme so I play loyalist but I really liked they way they portrayed the Iron Warriors in AE. I mean pulling all your supped up rhinos into a make shift fire base at the entrance of a Eldar temple to defend the Primarchs back is pretty bad .

[mc warhammer]

 

False Gods? Horus is shown a vision of the future. Horus is shown the person who produced that vision is a filthy liar. Horus loudly proclaims he knows the vision was likely a lie...Horus does what the filthy lying liar wanted him to do all along.

 

I mean, some of us like our steaks bloody rare, some of us want them charred black, a few like them medium well done, but we can all agree that if the waitress walks out and smashes the plate over your head, that was not an enjoyable steakhouse dining experience, right?

or to look at it another way- sometimes people know they are being lied to and protest it outwardly (and even consciously to themselves) but it gives them an excuse to do what they truly want, deep down. all they need is the temptation and an excuse to go through with it (convincing or not) and off they go. it looks crazy and illogical and ridiculous to anyone outside of that mindset.

[Greyall]

True, MC.

 

Horus even said he'd decide for himself. Let's be clear: he was aching to shrug off a lot of canned feelings and responsibility - all of which he blamed on his father...

[Phoebus]

Wade Garrett,

 

There is a cap on the number of posts I can "Like" on this forum on any given day.  Let's just say that, if I hadn't already exhausted my quota today, I would have on your posts in this thread.

 

Captain Juan Juarez,

 

It is true that familiarity breeds contempt, but so do bad depictions of characters.  The two can be exclusive.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

 

It is true that familiarity breeds contempt, but so do bad depictions of characters.  The two can be exclusive.

 

Indeed it can and arguing "bad depictions" is another can of worms altogether.

 

What is worse?

 

Bad depictions but ream after ream of information about the Primarchs, the Legions and so forth.

 

The barest minimum.

[Hyaenidae]

A bad depiction of a Character can ruin a character.

 

A bad depiction of a Primarch can ruin an entire Legion.

[Wade Garrett]

Bad depictions but ream after ream of information about the Primarchs, the Legions and so forth.

 

The barest minimum.

Option B. Always and forever, Option B. I am not a fan of the Word Bearers and the Night Lords because I was given volumes and volumes of data on them, down to how many freckles Curze has on the left side of his nose and what color the Devastator Marines of the XVII Company of the Sheathed Sword who wielded heavy bolters painted their armor so they wouldn't be confused for those wielding autocannons.

 

How much detailed information did we get about the TO

& E of the Night Lords or Curze's appearance in Lord of the Night ? Did ADB go on for pages in The First Heretic about the Word Bearer's pre-Primarch history, their preferred tactics before they went full Chaos with the cultist and daemon auxila, and so on?

 

No. And neither of those books are weakened by those omissions. Give me engaging characters and well crafted plots, do NOT drown me in oceans of authorial wordvomit in the form of pointless statistics and trivia.

[Phoebus]

The barest minimum is an extreme.  I, as a reader, shouldn't have to settle for one of two extremes (bad depictions or the barest minimum).

 

Curze and Lorgar (since they were mentioned, above) worked well because their depictions were handled well - not because they received less coverage in their respective books than Horus did in False Gods.  There's nothing unrealistic about the idea of Horus being handled better in False Gods without reducing the word count.