b1soul Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 A very speculative thread...but would he still have been a close combat beast? Would he have been something like Leman Russ...or a brawnier Khan? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIDM Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 he'd have been Guilliman 2.0 without nails he would be a rational primarch, but crazy huge and unstoppable in the areans there is no point in wondering really, he has em and they hurt him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Assuming that the Butchers Nails never existed... - He would still have risen up in revolt against the High-Riders. Depending on how much the Nails were inhibiting his tactical acumen, he may or may not have ended up in the situation that the Emperor canonically found him in. I would like to think that without the Nails, he would be a more brutal version of Corax, exterminating the slavers instead of subjugating them. - He would not have had so little regard for his sons. Betrayer described him (in his last days before ascension to Daemonhood) as eating and drinking with his men, laughing with them at their gladiatorial fights, and even pausing to have long conversations with his ship's archivists. I think that is a glimpse to what Angron could have been. - The Devourers would have a job. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 As for who's the biggest douche to his men, I think it's a toss-up between Angron and Perturabo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I see him becoming a sort of mix between Russ and Ferrus Manus, lots of warrior spirit and honour, but with a strong streak of 'darwinism' and unacceptance of failure and frailty. He'd never be close-combat Guilliman. Even without the nails, his time of captivity as a gladiator would likely breed a brutal warrior anyhow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 More importantly, would he have been loyal? Assuming that without the Nails he could have conquered his home planet by the time the Emperor found him, he would have no reason to hate him so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Calmer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Don't think sanity would've led Angron to victory, automatically. He'd still have very limited manpower on his side. His hope would be to go Corax and do things carefully, but even then, it's a tremendous disadvantage. He'd be closer, that's for sure, but I can also see him getting in the same situation as he did with the Nails. Would he react differently with no nails, if the Emperor teleported him and let his friends die? Probably...but for worse. He wouldn't have butchered the War Hounds' officers, but would've truly bonded with them and Russ would have no lesson to teach his brother on loving his sons. Then, come the Heresy, Angron would turn, since he still didn't forgive the Emperor for what he did to him nor the fact that he's a tyrant. And Horus would perhaps have a less dangerous Primarch on his side, but an even more effective Legion. Can you imagine the WE's numbers without their 'Look, a shining muzzel! Must catch it!' drive? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 As for who's the biggest douche to his men, I think it's a toss-up between Angron and Perturabo I dunno, Pertuarbo takes it imo, as of Extermination. Despite having read it, I still don't get why he ordered the IV decimated. Angron was just angry, Pertuarbo was calculated and premeditated with his douchery towards his Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Angron would be able to lead a slave uprising though. Curze conquered a world completely on his own. Different strategies sure, but I have no doubt that Angron would have conquered his homeworld. Ignoring their individual traits for a second, Mortarion united a world of low-tech, untrained humans and formed them into an army which he used to conquer the entire planet, except the one mansion of his adoptive father. The Khan did the same, except he conquered the entire planet. Corax also did the same. The strategies each used is really a nature v nurture debate. If the Khan had landed on Deliverance would he have used the same strategies that Corax used? Who knows. Anyway, my point is that there is precedent for Primarchs conquering their homeworlds from a weak starting position. Angron with the Nails only ever cared about fighting, because it was the only time the Nails weren't tearing his brain apart. Angron without the Nails would have united the slaves in a glorious uprising and threw down the Highriders. Hell a Grey Knight managed to lead a xenos/renegade uprising on a Khornate gladiator world, a world of ordinary humans vs a Primarch? Easy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Nails are just a aesthetic prop. Everyone knows this ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Assuming the same numbers disadvantage, his best bet would be to run into hiding and infiltrate Nuceria's palace to slay the king. Even if it didn't turn the planet to him, at least he'd be able to defend the place with less men. That's something the lack of Nails helps with :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Cramming butcher's nails into pit-gladiators was standard procedure on Nuceria, so for Angron to lack them he'd have to never have been a slave to begin with. He might have grown up in the filth that the high riders forced the population into, or even as a high rider himself. Who knows how he'd have turned out then. Maybe he'd have fought to bring justice to the downtrodden people, or at least to their ruthless leaders. Or maybe he'd have approved the mutilation of those deemed distasteful to society into mindless berzerkers and become an even bigger jerk than Perturabo. It's a little like 'what if Corax was raised not by the slaves, but by their captors?' If there's one alternate universe thing I want to know about Warhammer 40,000, it's what Angron (and the War Hounds) would have been without the nails. Even if I'm not sure I'd enjoy the results. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I think he would've be more like Sanguinius, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3686998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Some Primarchs were tyrants in their own way, but they always worked for the bigger and better picture for Mankind on their planets.So it's a fair assumption a Nail-Free, highborn Angron might've kept the gladiators in a free regimen for recruitment but make do with the Nails. Still, he could've been both a gladiator and Nail-free, if the procedure was deemed impossible due to his phisiology or he was deemed ferocious enough already.. Either way, either/both Nuceria and how it brought Angron up make me think there's a fair chance of him going rogue anyway...but it's a dangerous assumption, I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I see him becoming a sort of mix between Russ and Ferrus Manus, lots of warrior spirit and honour, but with a strong streak of 'darwinism' and unacceptance of failure and frailty. He'd never be close-combat Guilliman. Even without the nails, his time of captivity as a gladiator would likely breed a brutal warrior anyhow. I second these thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 If Angron had been adopted by the Lords of one of the city states that controlled his home world. Angron would have develpoed a strong "Brotherhood" with the army he leads. Like how the War Hounds had strong ties to brotherhood. He also would have conqured all of the other city states on the planet and ended all of thier little wars. The Emperor would have arrived to find a peaceful would living with a warrior code maybe even warrior caste as the rulers. Duels used to settle disputes and as ways of testing a warriors skills. I'm thinking a hollywood version of the Tokugawa shogunate period in Japan. With Shogun Angron, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Corax with muscle, and a detached disdain and insightfullness towards the virtues (or lack of) of the Emperor and his Imperium to rival the Khan's. As a fighter, not so close to the top ranks amongst his brothers as he once was, given that they can actually defend against him now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 They can't lure him into situations where half a Legion is aiming at him while his sons fight the other half, either :p Not as easily, at least Also, his strength must be around the same, and with a planet so centered around war, I'd say he'd get proper training. He'd be almost as good a fighter and a much better commander, for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Haven't we done this subject to death? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaCroix Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 doesnt look like it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I always think of Angron's speech about how just because he thinks the Emperor is a murderous tyrannical monster, that doesn't mean he isn't loyal. He kills whomever the murderous tyrannical monster wants dead, and he enjoys killing them too; he's just under no illusions about who he serves. It's bitter, but it's also insightful, and while the Nails amp up his enjoyment of killing, I don't know that the speech seems quite Nails-motivated. It's impossible to know whether he would have come around to that same point of view about the Emperor's monstrosity or not without the Nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 I always think of Angron's speech about how just because he thinks the Emperor is a murderous tyrannical monster, that doesn't mean he isn't loyal. He kills whomever the murderous tyrannical monster wants dead, and he enjoys killing them too; he's just under no illusions about who he serves. It's bitter, but it's also insightful, and while the Nails amp up his enjoyment of killing, I don't know that the speech seems quite Nails-motivated. It's impossible to know whether he would have come around to that same point of view about the Emperor's monstrosity or not without the Nails. I was thinking that myself. If he did conquer the planet in a slave uprising, there would be no reason for the Emperor to snatch him, so no reason for him to hate the Emperor. Although, given his upbringing and his view of the highriders, he may still see the Emp as a tyrant. I see non-Nails Angron as a lot like Corax, backstory wise, and I think they would be the closest brothers. Corax doesn't make any comparison between the Emperor and his slave-masters, so maybe Angron wouldn't either. Saying that the Khan doesn't really have a positive view of the Emperor, and he's loyal, was in full command of his homeworld and was never a slave either, so who knows really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3687939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Without the Nails, Angron would have become a refined and sensitive philosopher poet, always with a flower in his lapel, and an abhorrence of crude violence. His eloquence and empathy would have made him the imperium's greatest diplomat, renowned for bringing whole worlds into peaceful compliance. ;) Seriously, how can we even speculate about his character without the nails? Maybe by looking at the War Hound's pre Angron disposition, if that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3688000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daylight Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Seriously, how can we even speculate about his character without the nails? Maybe by looking at the War Hound's pre Angron disposition, if that... So, brutal and violent but not insane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291055-what-kind-of-primarch-would-angron-have-been-sans-nails/#findComment-3688005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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