What to do about all high thoughness enemies?!

[Ulfast]

Hell fellow captains.

 

i have a big problem that I face regular two chaos armies with daemon princes, one tyranid with several big bugs and an Iyanden eldar army, all of them with lots of T6 or higher thoughness. And what shall I do? I shoot, I stab, I sneak and still they just comes and eat my marines.  find it very hard to meet this armies.

 

An example; yesterday I fought against the Iyanden player and he had a troops chose of 10 wraithguards with T6, 2+ armour save (from psyhich power) and 4+ inv save. And he had two of them, two wraithlords and one wraithknight!

 

Any help is welcome.

 

My own thought is to get some sternguards with bolters that can wound on 2+ with poison. But is that all?

 

 

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

that's what i did the other day, maybe stick them with someone with prescience for maximum value? the look on his face when his murder sword wielding DP karked it on turn one was priceless

[Grey Mage]

Sniper.... scouts.....

Add in a prescience buff and/or just spam the crap out of them.

Plasmaguns and lascannons, works wonders on wraiths.

Prescienced lascannons do decent anti-aircraft/FMC.

Of course... in three weeks, this will all change anyways.

[Sviar]

With lots of high strength low AP weapons. Devastators, Sternguard with combi weapons(for that extra punch, a DP will get them to the desired location faster), Missile Launchers or plasma or plasmacannons in Tac squads, Vindicators and even though Orbital Bombardment is not a acurate weapon it can really hurt your opponent and it is cheap for what is does/can accomplish. Fighting this way will sadly drive up the point costs very fast. Or you can reduce their effectivness by get into CC. Preferably with Terminators in a LR,LRC or LRR as a dedicatet transport(to free up the HS slot), which of course also drives up the points. Do you use Gunships or Psykesrs.

[knife&fork]

My own thought is to get some sternguards with bolters that can wound on 2+ with poison. But is that all?

 

Grav, it's fantastic. 

[GreyCrow]

I think Grav Centurions are the counter to Monstruous Creatures and overall high Toughness Monsters.

 

No matter how odd they may look, I plan to bring a squad of 3 in my next army iteration, comes 7th edition and the changes to the rules. They are just too good not to be taken ! They won't be good against Daemons, though.

 

Against tough to crack nuts, I would recommend methodical focus firing. Just shoot your entire amy for a turn at them s they can be weakened. Then, take a buffy interceptor unit to deal with them late game.

 

Like Necrons, just shooting everything you have at them migh just work. Try not to split fire, and while it took you 1 Turn of shooting the MC to death, you won't have to deal it afterwards.

 

If the high toughness is not that important in the opponent's army list, then try to delay or tarpit it for a few turns.

[Azash]

I think Grav Centurions are the counter to Monstruous Creatures and overall high Toughness Monsters.

 

No matter how odd they may look, I plan to bring a squad of 3 in my next army iteration, comes 7th edition and the changes to the rules. They are just too good not to be taken ! They won't be good against Daemons, though.

 

Against tough to crack nuts, I would recommend methodical focus firing. Just shoot your entire amy for a turn at them s they can be weakened. Then, take a buffy interceptor unit to deal with them late game.

 

Like Necrons, just shooting everything you have at them migh just work. Try not to split fire, and while it took you 1 Turn of shooting the MC to death, you won't have to deal it afterwards.

 

If the high toughness is not that important in the opponent's army list, then try to delay or tarpit it for a few turns.

This right here.

 

There are pretty much three MC's that grav sucks against. Unclean One, Lord of Change, and Keeper of Secrets.

 

Fortunately people always put wings on em. So if you back your cents up with things like Storm Talons, Quad guns, and Stalkers you will be able to cover all your bases.

[Excubitor]

Also, do you have a dedicated CC unit in the army? Assault terminators, Vanguard, Honour Guard? If you hit the MC with a grav first, Concussive makes them initiative 1 for the rest of the turn, so they can charge a creature and usually knock it out. I've used a Grav gun/grav pistol 5-man tactical squad with a razorback in conjuction with an assault unit, currently 2x TH & SS, 4x LC terminator unit. The tactical takes off a couple wounds, and the LC terminators finish it off before the TH even hit.

 

Combined arms is the best way marines play, at least for me. Little synergies like this can really help with tough matchups.

[Garath]

Here 's an oldy - but a goody.

 

 Ally in some IG .  

 

 Company command squad with snipers- vox caster ,better armor and cammo.

 

 A blob with :  Command squad and 5 squads of 10 guys with absoluetly nothing except 5 power axe sarges.

 

    Get your Troll face on! :D Attach a SM character and advance those guys forward.  First rank fire second rank fire with 27x5 lasgun shots WILL do some damage. Furthermore, they can be a wonderful tarpit for the eldar guys.  And your blob has...5 power axes.

   

  Of course this will all change if the new edition disallows power axes...

[incinerator950]

I'm curious to see if the Defiler will be worth using in the new edition. 

[tdemayo]

Plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

 

Plasma guns solve almost any problem except heavy vehicles.

[GreyCrow]

Plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

 

Plasma guns solve almost any problem except heavy vehicles.

 

The problem I have with plasma is that it's hard to bring them in sufficient quantities. Comparing to Grav Centurions, for example, where 6 wounds will give you 15 Grav shots, rerolling to wound, not counting the odd missile or the Hurricane Bolter.

 

Of course, one could take Plasma Devastators, but that is still only 4 maximum hits on a High Toughness model. It would work well for a unit of multiple high toughness like Wraith Guards, but it will lack against the odd MC.

 

You could have a Plasma sternguard, but since you have a nice 2+ poison round, plasma might be redundant, and unless you go for combis, you lose the ability to carry the Dual Heayy Flamers, which are awesome, haha !

[scrimdog]

I regularly play against eldar, tau, nidds and never leave home without my grav centurions in a raven with tiggy. And if its really looking MC heavy, 10 sternguard with 2 combi melta plasma grav and of course hellfire shells usually do the trick. But apart from combat we dont have many more options . I used 3 vindicators last tuesday against my buds nidds and did some serious squishin until hive tyrant with TLD popped one in shooting and one with vector strike so a bit flimsy.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Grav weapons were made specifically for players in your situation, Ulfast.

 

They use the opponent's armor save as the number you need to wound them with, and they have AP2, so you will wound those Wraithguard on a 2+ and they will get no armor save. The 4++ can still be problematic, but luckily grav weaponry tends to fire many shots.

[tdemayo]

 

Plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

 

Plasma guns solve almost any problem except heavy vehicles.

 

The problem I have with plasma is that it's hard to bring them in sufficient quantities. Comparing to Grav Centurions, for example, where 6 wounds will give you 15 Grav shots, rerolling to wound, not counting the odd missile or the Hurricane Bolter.

 

Of course, one could take Plasma Devastators, but that is still only 4 maximum hits on a High Toughness model. It would work well for a unit of multiple high toughness like Wraith Guards, but it will lack against the odd MC.

 

You could have a Plasma sternguard, but since you have a nice 2+ poison round, plasma might be redundant, and unless you go for combis, you lose the ability to carry the Dual Heayy Flamers, which are awesome, haha !

 

I tend to take a lot of tactical squads, which I operate together.  Two or three squads, firing a plasma and a combi-plasma each, plus all the bolters, tends to evaporate a single target such as a MC or some Wraithguard.  Plasma guns and combi plasma guns are better than plasma cannons at this sort of thing, because they can stack hits on multi-wound single models.

 

If you use your plasma in a more isolated and sporadic manner, however, you are correct: a smaller number of plasma shots struggles.  And as others have said, grav is better against T6+ creatures with a 3+ or 2+ save, but is a more specialized weapon.

[Garath]

 Grav guns in generally more specialised...

 

  Grav cannons on ceturions on the other hand are incredible.  You get to fire five times a model , and re- roll wounds.  Add in prescience and suddenly you're murderin' left and right.  

 

  Also, depending on the local rulling, then may ignore cover saves from vehicles.

 

  That last bit will change perhaps in 7th. 

[SyNidus]

Combined arms, especially against FMCs, bring em down with assault cannon Stormtalons/storm ravens, then rapid fire Bolters. Wiped Belakor off the map in one turn thanks to this combo.

[Kaedes Nex]

 

Plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

 

Plasma guns solve almost any problem except heavy vehicles.

 

The problem I have with plasma is that it's hard to bring them in sufficient quantities. Comparing to Grav Centurions, for example, where 6 wounds will give you 15 Grav shots, rerolling to wound, not counting the odd missile or the Hurricane Bolter.

 

Of course, one could take Plasma Devastators, but that is still only 4 maximum hits on a High Toughness model. It would work well for a unit of multiple high toughness like Wraith Guards, but it will lack against the odd MC.

 

You could have a Plasma sternguard, but since you have a nice 2+ poison round, plasma might be redundant, and unless you go for combis, you lose the ability to carry the Dual Heayy Flamers, which are awesome, haha !

 

Yeah we barely get any plasma, like none on vehicles and just devs and tacticals. I think the best way to get plasma other than the Sternguard are to take a Command Squad with all plasma.

[Garath]

  I wouldn't say CS is the only good option for plasma spam.

 

  6 tacticals with a Plasma gun, combi plasma on Sarge riding in a Razorback with twin linked plasma and a lascannon costs us roughy 200 pts.

[GreyCrow]

  I wouldn't say CS is the only good option for plasma spam.

 

  6 tacticals with a Plasma gun, combi plasma on Sarge riding in a Razorback with twin linked plasma and a lascannon costs us roughy 200 pts.

 

That's how I plan to play Tacticals in Razorback and throwing them on the flanks.

Although it's closer to 185 points, provided you don't take a power weapon on the sergeant.

[Garath]

  The speed of the Razorback actually ensures then get to their target (in this case a MC) to intercept it and kill it before it reaches any of our units.

[Kaedes Nex]

  I wouldn't say CS is the only good option for plasma spam.

 

  6 tacticals with a Plasma gun, combi plasma on Sarge riding in a Razorback with twin linked plasma and a lascannon costs us roughy 200 pts.

 

I had thought of that, but it's still only 3 shots compared to 4 or 5 from the command squad and combis only get to shoot once so it's not like you can count it as a plasma gun all game long when you need it. But you could throw in a Plasma Cannon with that squad and start off disembarked or using scout/relentless etc from chapter tactics and you can spam this unlike the command squad. But the LC turret should count as 2 plasma guns really since LC is better than plasma in every way anyways. It costs the same as the command squad roughly and scores to boot.

 

The real question IMO is if spamming plasma is even worth it right now. Against OP's situation, I don't think so. He should focus on grav and heavy support guns.

[Trevak Dal]

that's what i did the other day, maybe stick them with someone with prescience for maximum value? the look on his face when his murder sword wielding DP karked it on turn one was priceless

 

That's an odd weapon to give to a Daemon Prince...unless it's the Crimson Slaughter one?

 

I hope the new edition makes power spears 2 handed, but +1 initiative and ap4 (with +1 strength and ap3 on the charge) with axes going to -1 or -2 Initiative instead of i1.

 

And I would hope that Plasma cannons can have a Riptide ion cannon type fire mode where they can shoot heavy 2, s7 ap2 shots, and also the heavy 1 blast with gets hot on both of course.

[incinerator950]

CS is the Blade of the Relentless, Murdersword is the standard codex relic. 

[Hellios]

I asked my Eldar friend... He told me to bring bolters.

 

 

Oh, wait...

 

I see what he did there...

 

Any weapons that are S6+ (or poison/sniper/fleshbane) with a low AP can do the job... You just need to figure out what kind of army you want. 

 

I was so sad when a SM player got 4 rending hits from an AssCan on his first turn of shooting against my Wraith Lord... So sad...