Coteaz summoning Bloodletters

[Valerian]

Edit: But if we *don't*, how did Coteaz summon thoer 'letters?

 

/sigh

 

The article in that White Dwarf was about summoning daemons, but nothing was stated about Coteaz doing it; clearly those Bloodletters are sneaking up on him. 

 

"Look out, Torquemada!  They're right behind you!"

[Gentlemanloser]

PMSL. ;)

 

But they're within 1" of him, they would have suffered a mishap if they had just DS. ;)

[boreas]

TL;DR But even I, the eternal optimist or narrative forging can't, won't ever justify Coteaz summoning Daemons....

[Valerian]

PMSL. ;)

 

But they're within 1" of him, they would have suffered a mishap if they had just DS. ;)

They're obviously in the process of charging him :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With the re-fluff of the Grey Knights, I'd like to think of this as a 'streamlining' of the process. There's fluff precedent about summoned demons who are banished being unable to return for a set period of time. (Angron on Armageddon) So, the knights summon and bind them to cast them against their enemies to banish both of them and mop up the survivors afterward. No more radical than 'armour paint'.

No, that makes zero sense. I repeat again, do whatever you want in your games, but there is no background justification for Knights summoning daemons. The Chapter was literally created to prevent that exact problem. The attitude you describe is something radical Inquisitors might have (but even a lot of them would balk at actually summoning the warp, more commonly they'd take advantage of an existing situation).

Edit: But if we *don't*, how did Coteaz summon thoer 'letters?

Inquisitors probably have access, Coteaz is an Inquisitor...I mean, like the above suggestion, it's a blatant violation of the background, but GW have already made it clear that doesn't matter to them. Time to forge a narrative and buy all these boxes of daemons gathering dust!

Boo. I think I'm done, then.

Don't be disheartened man, none of us have even played a game of 7th yet. Also, do you know how annoying that Gargoyle formation is? Now consider how pathetically easy Gargoyles are to kill, and yet them having super-scoring is enough to make Tyranids almost competitive (before 7th of course).

Then feel lucky. Every game -- and I do mean every game -- since Escalation last December has seen superheavies and/or gargantuans and/or any of the innumerable allies-driven monster steamroller units. At least 2 people own and use Harridans. Everybody has multiple Imperial Knights. Stompas are all over the place. One guy regularly fields IG Baneblade variants alongside his IKs. Half a dozen folks have and use Warhounds. At least 3 people have Reaver titans.

I must have a pretty restrained player group. No one here likes Escalation, we all think its dumb shoehorning Apoc into normal 40k. No take takes the overpowered Stronghold stuff either. I'd ask people to play their superheavies in Apoc games, where they belong. If your regular opponents are being that stupid, I'd suggest finding new opponents. Its zero fun when someone can just play Reavers and pie-plate half your army Turn 1.

I can't be the only person in this kind of situation. Setting up 40K to be All Apocalypse All The Time pushes people like me out of the hobby because I simply don't have the deep pockets. It makes the game more exclusive, less inclusive.

No I doubt you're alone, and Unbound is just going to explode this phenomenon across 40k. But likewise, you're not the only one who thinks its dumb and unbalancing. I'm sure a lot of tourney organisers are losing their minds right now. (shrug) As I said before, you might just have to find a new scene to be part of. It's all any of us can do now, find like-minded people.

I agree Number6. Yet the majority of posters here (not the GK subforum ) seem to think that it's easy to say no to Escalation and therefore Unbound, and no one they play with is 'that guy' becuase they won't get games any more...

I'm not saying its easy, but it's not impossible. 40k is a very niche hobby in Oz, yet I managed to find two different groups who take a dim view of such things. Look on other wargaming forums, or even network through this site. It will take some effort, but plenty in the fanbase are disgusted by these changes and want no part of 'Apoc All Day Erry Day'.

Whenever I face GK it's part of my storyline that my puritan inquisitor has hunted down another group of GK that includes members from that Sororitas butchery and he's going to show them the grave error of stooping to such methods in the name of "victory at all costs".

That makes no sense though. If he's a puritan if anything he'd approve of such methods. Also, I dunno if you've noticed, but Inquisitors are trained to be equally ruthless as Knights. If he was the kind of guy to go 'woah hey that's a bit extreme' he would've never gotten the rosette. 'Victory at all costs' is kinda of the motto of the Imperium. 'Blood of martyrs is the seed of the Imperium', 'even a man with nothing can give his life for the Emperor' etc etc.

Speaking of sisters, given all the fluff out there about fallen sisters, it doesn't strike me as totally impossible for there to be SOME GK who have come under the influence of a radical inquisitor or developed radical ideas of their own.

No it is impossible, because Knights may have doubts but they keep it strictly to themselves. 'Emperors Gift' and our own codex demonstrate why this is the case. Knights would never under any circumstances allow daemons to enter realspace, it goes against their entire reason for existence. Knights don't develop radical ideas either, they're mind-scraped on initiation, then get hypno-indoctrinated to a degree not even Marines receive. Remember, this is a Chapter whose own seers have seen that the Imperium, in almost all versions of the future, loses and is consumed by Chaos, regardless of their efforts. They have more reason to doubt than most, and yet they're still 100% loyal and committed to their purpose.

The article in that White Dwarf was about summoning daemons, but nothing was stated about Coteaz doing it; clearly those Bloodletters are sneaking up on him.

"Look out, Torquemada! They're right behind you!"

For bonus hilarity points, Coteaz has a 2+ save, so none of those 'Letters can reliably kill him. Plus he murders like three a turn in melee. 'Come taste hammer!'.

TL;DR But even I, the eternal optimist or narrative forging can't, won't ever justify Coteaz summoning Daemons....

Count-as ;) he could be Eisonhorn if you wish, or some other radical like Quixos.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Inquisitors probably have access, Coteaz is an Inquisitor...

 

I gettit!!!!

 

That was a Codex: Inquisition Coteaz, who has access to Malefic Daemonolgy!

 

Codex: Grey Knights, and Codex: GK Coteaz will only have access to Sanctic Daemonolgy! ;)

 

Ah, two different rules for the same mini.  And some folk still wouldn't let me use both in the same list...  Unique by be-hind! :P

 

;)

[Marshal Rohr]

The Ward giveth, and the Ward taketh away.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I gettit!!!!

That was a Codex: Inquisition Coteaz, who has access to Malefic Daemonolgy!

Which is to say, his evil clone, who is actually the Changeling trolling everyone ;)

Codex: Grey Knights, and Codex: GK Coteaz will only have access to Sanctic Daemonolgy!

That would seem logical

Ah, two different rules for the same mini. And some folk still wouldn't let me use both in the same list... Unique by be-hind!

justasplanned.tzeentch

The Ward giveth, and the Ward taketh away.

To be fair I don't think any of this is Ward's doing. GW is directing the design team to inflate 40k with WHFB concepts and rules, so they can hopefully entice new players into the dying game. Not sure how successful that'll turn out to be...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Reclusiarch Darius, I don't want to get too off-topic on this thread, so I created a new one in response to your comments on my post regarding my Inquisitor's attitude to blood-bathing Grey Knights here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291097-inquisition-methods/

[Eddie Orlock]

"Look out, Torquemada! They're right behind you!"

Don't worry, He's been expecting them.

With the re-fluff of the Grey Knights, I'd like to think of this as a 'streamlining' of the process. There's fluff precedent about summoned demons who are banished being unable to return for a set period of time. (Angron on Armageddon) So, the knights summon and bind them to cast them against their enemies to banish both of them and mop up the survivors afterward. No more radical than 'armour paint'.

No, that makes zero sense. I repeat again, do whatever you want in your games, but there is no background justification for Knights summoning daemons. The Chapter was literally created to prevent that exact problem. The attitude you describe is something radical Inquisitors might have (but even a lot of them would balk at actually summoning the warp, more commonly they'd take advantage of an existing situation).

Come now, the most recent book went to some extended lengths to expound upon the increasing depravity of the knights. Being one of the few forces historically allowed to retain their memories of Demonic engagements as well as possessed of unparalleled lore they would be the premier demon binders, those most able to pull off the feat originally described without picking up too much taint. Their armoury is replete with widgets designed to gain power and influence over the demonic. Titan is reputed to have, for lack of a better term, 'holding cells'. They've already summoned demons to interrogate and imprison them. Perhaps this is like cutting a deal with a small time dealer to nail the big time smuggler? The knights, as of late, have been trucking in all the precedents to the act described.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Come now, the most recent book went to some extended lengths to expound upon the increasing depravity of the knights. Being one of the few forces historically allowed to retain their memories of Demonic engagements as well as possessed of unparalleled lore they would be the premier demon binders, those most able to pull off the feat originally described without picking uptoo much taint.

Well yeah. In the first case, they need unparalleled knowledge of the enemy and the warp, because without it they're just Marines. The whole struggle at the core of every Knights existence is they possess knowledge and power over daemonspawn, but they use it exclusively to banish daemons. And yeah, everything to do with the warp taints. Summoning a daemon is essentially a contract between you and the daemon, one where it is always at a distinct advantage. 

 

Their armoury is replete with widgets designed to gain power and influence over the demonic.

No its not. Everything in their arsenal is designed to either weaken the grip of daemons on reality, or psychically banish them. The few exceptions are the little pocket dimension cages they got from the Necrons (which they don't fully trust and so rarely use), and the daemon lord's skull they have over their feast hall. 

 

Titan is reputed to have, for lack of a better term, 'holding cells'. 

The only daemons they have in captivity are the ones in the Necron pokeballs and the Rajah they have in their feast hall. Although they hint heavily that beneath the fortress-monastery, guarded by the Purifiers, there is some kind of warp creature haunting the caverns. Paladins have to survive travelling through it I believe. Knights generally don't hang onto daemons though, they don't get much reliable information from the process, and the daemon remains a threat until released. Its actually safer to just banish them back to the warp (where they belong) rather than trap them in realspace by whatever means. 

 

They've already summoned demons to interrogate and imprison them. Perhaps this is like cutting a deal with a small time dealer to nail the big time smuggler? The knights, as of late, have been trucking in all the precedents to the act described.

Except that's not how the warp works. Lesser daemons are tiny incarnations of their master, he can revoke their being at will if they displease him. Khorne exiled his best soldier for that exact reason. Anyway, daemons can't be pressured, they're manifestations of lies and emotion. Knights already have the tools at their disposal to oppose the Dark Gods, and they have Prognosticators to find daemonic incursions. Inquisitors might find interrogating daemons fruitful but Knights don't need to. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't worry, He's been expecting them.

So much WIN!

/salute

[Dread]

Okay, stupid question time. Which book/s are y'all talking about 'cause I really want to read them. I'm more of a player and less with the fluff but I enjoyed the 2 sisters books so much and kinda use them in my play style after the books and would like to do so with my GK especially since I have such a large army now.

 

On topic, I second GL.

[Quozzo]

The only daemons they have in captivity are the ones in the Necron pokeballs

Firstly, lol. Secondly thats not strictly true. Brotherhood of the Watch Any daemons they can't banish for whatever reason are imprisoned.

[Gentlemanloser]

Skulltaker, I choose you!!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Firstly, lol. Secondly thats not strictly true. Brotherhood of the Watch Any daemons they can't banish for whatever reason are imprisoned. 

That's an Ordo Malleus cult, and it's not on Titan. So I don't see the connection to Knights. In fact, I'm pretty sure if the Knights became aware of a Watch facility, they'd go down and banish said daemons, then murder everyone just to be sure. Mortals can't be trusted with warpcraft. 

 

Skulltaker, I choose you!!

Oh wow. I just figured it out guys

 

NECRON POKEBALLS EXPLAINS DAEMONOLOGY

 

You're not 'summoning' them, you're just throwing the pokeball at the enemy and releasing the daemon from its prison. 

 

Meanwhile, Trollzyn watches from his tomb ship in orbit, and cackles with glee. 'Just as planned. Beat that Tzeentch!'

[Gentlemanloser]

Team Trollzyn, blasting off again!!!!!

[Eddie Orlock]

 

Titan is reputed to have, for lack of a better term, 'holding cells'.

The only daemons they have in captivity are the ones in the Necron pokeballs and the Rajah they have in their feast hall. ...

I think I'd also count the entity bound in Crowe's Sword as a captive entity. Figure the same 'omniscient morality license' that permits them to bathe in the blood of virgins for the greater good of humanity would also allow them to coercively conscript the demonic for the greater good of humanity.

 

The grimoire of true names may have made it into the armoury as a way to weaken the demons, but like many sorcerous tools, contains within it the ability to manipulate as well as abjure.

[number6]

On the topic of "working to find a community of like-minded players".... It is only for GW games that this is necessary. I don't have to actively fight the game rules to play an evenly matched pick-up game in <name any other tabletop miniatures game you like>.

 

THAT'S the problem . 40k hasn't become more fun. It's become more work.

 

Meanwhile, I can play warmahordes anywhere in the world and expect an even match against opponents I've never even met.

 

Requiring players to self-select into exclusive Groupthink enclaves is not a feature. It's a bug.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

THAT'S the problem . 40k hasn't become more fun. It's become more work.

 

I've been saying that since the release of 6th. ;)

 

It's not the most 'fun' version of the rules GW have released. :(

 

And 7th is seemingly forcing more of this on us.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Sorry to say, but at this point I am about one step away from leaving the hobby altogether. I simply do not like All Apocalypse All The Time. I just don't like how completely blown apart and permissive the game has become, and is still becoming.

 

Not to add to the woe, but the latest WD have some message about the philosophy behind the army choosing changes.

 

Basically, GW see Unbound lists as the basis for every 40k game, and included it so players wouldn't have to worry about whether it was 'allowed' or not.

 

So sure, you can refuse to play an Unbound list, but do you want to become 'that guy'?

[DinoDoc]

 

Sorry to say, but at this point I am about one step away from leaving the hobby altogether. I simply do not like All Apocalypse All The Time. I just don't like how completely blown apart and permissive the game has become, and is still becoming.

 

Not to add to the woe, but the latest WD have some message about the philosophy behind the army choosing changes.

 

Basically, GW see Unbound lists as the basis for every 40k game, and included it so players wouldn't have to worry about whether it was 'allowed' or not.

 

So sure, you can refuse to play an Unbound list, but do you want to become 'that guy'?

Yes. Absolutely.

[Quozzo]

 

Sorry to say, but at this point I am about one step away from leaving the hobby altogether. I simply do not like All Apocalypse All The Time. I just don't like how completely blown apart and permissive the game has become, and is still becoming.

 

Not to add to the woe, but the latest WD have some message about the philosophy behind the army choosing changes.

 

Basically, GW see Unbound lists as the basis for every 40k game, and included it so players wouldn't have to worry about whether it was 'allowed' or not.

 

So sure, you can refuse to play an Unbound list, but do you want to become 'that guy'?

So my dreadknight can wield another dreadknight! Oh wait... is that allowed, let me check my RULEbook.

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course not!  The Rules don't allow a Dreadknight to select another Dreadnight as wargear.

 

But the Rules now do allow you to field an army of *just* Dreadnights. ;)

 

Not only to they allow it, but it's the design studios *intention* that this is the base way for all games to be played!

 

And who wants to run counter to the designers intentions? ;)

[Quozzo]

Of course not! The Rules don't allow a Dreadknight to select another Dreadnight as wargear.

But the Rules now do allow you to field an army of *just* Dreadnights.

Not only to they allow it, but it's the design studios *intention* that this is the base way for all games to be played!

And who wants to run counter to the designers intentions?

Apart from everyone, no-one.

In the rulebook they say we can make our own rules, so why even create an alternative rule in case people can't follow rules just so we don't need to house rule it. Oh i remember, we're a cash cow.