Inquisition Methods

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Not wanting to get the Coteaz thread too off topic, I thought I'd bring this bit of debate over the finer points of fluff into its own thread.

 

 

 

 

Whenever I face GK it's part of my storyline that my puritan inquisitor has hunted down another group of GK that includes members from that Sororitas butchery and he's going to show them the grave error of stooping to such methods in the name of "victory at all costs".

 

That makes no sense though. If he's a puritan if anything he'd approve of such methods. Also, I dunno if you've noticed, but Inquisitors are trained to be equally ruthless as Knights. If he was the kind of guy to go 'woah hey that's a bit extreme' he would've never gotten the rosette. 'Victory at all costs' is kinda of the motto of the Imperium. 'Blood of martyrs is the seed of the Imperium', 'even a man with nothing can give his life for the Emperor' etc etc.

 

I think that saying it "makes no sense" is an overbroad statement considering that it is frequently stated in all the fluff I've read in Codex: Daemonhunters, Codex: Witchhunters, and Codex: Inquisition, that there are a wide variety of methods and approaches pursued by Inquisitors. There is not Atilla-the-Hun sized shoe that fits all. They don't all need to be monsters to fit the description of being ruthless and utterly dedicated in their pursuit of the protection of the Imperium. Codex: Inquisition certainly seems to suggest various levels of cold-heartedness within the Inquisition at large when it describes the polarization that Emil Darkhammer's methods create (i.e. while there are those who, like the blood-bathing GK approve, there are those who strongly disapprove).

 

In Black Library publications, some of them have humanity to them. I'm thinking of Inquisitor Ravenor from the books I've read that feature him. Yet he didn't strike me as a radical. Which I guess brings me to my next point, the suggestion that a Puritan especially would approve of Grey Knights massacring untainted Sisters of Battle and bathing in their blood. It seems to me that puritans or radicals would be equally as likely to approve or disapprove.

 

Looking at human history, there have been many examples of strong, "badass" leaders who could be very ruthless with their enemies, but who still had loyalty to their own, or who had lines that they would not cross to acheive success. Just for one example, I think of Charlemagne who was very good and loyal to his family, good to his people, but quite ruthless in dealing with his enemies like the Saxons.

 

It makes sense to me that there could be an Inquisitor who is a puritan (which to me means he has no truck whatsoever with the daemonic and, being Ordo Hereticus, is very strict on psykers) who would view butchering a bunch of pure Adepta Sororitas and wearing their blood on their armour as over one of those lines, and even wandering into the realm of partaking in Chaotic ritual or certainly Chaotic tactics which is dangerously on the verge of something radicals could do. I do think that even a ruthless and utterly pragmatic inquisitor could be outraged by such an extreme. The way I see Lord Inquisitor Soulis reacting is not saying "that's extreme" but saying "humanity is doomed to fall to Chaos if it must adopt such clearly evil methods. We have already lost to Chaos if this is the only way. I refuse to believe that. Furthermore, you wasted good stock, pure servants who could have equally won the battle fighting alongside you instead of smeared on your armour and could have served the Imperium for years to come." Or words to that effect.

 

The fluff loves to talk about inconsistency in Inquisitorial thought. And if said inquisitor has a special affiliation with the Sisters he might be more inclined to side with them and consider the GK the villains of this story.

 

Plus also a martyr by definition is one who is killed by the OTHER side, not by one's own side.

 

I'd be interested in what other Inquisition players think. Am I off base here?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I think that saying it "makes no sense" is an overbroad statement considering that it is frequently stated in all the fluff I've read in Codex: Daemonhunters, Codex: Witchhunters, and Codex: Inquisition, that there are a wide variety of methods and approaches pursued by Inquisitors. There is not Atilla-the-Hun sized shoe that fits all. They don't all need to be monsters to fit the description of being ruthless and utterly dedicated in their pursuit of the protection of the Imperium. Codex: Inquisition certainly seems to suggest various levels of cold-heartedness within the Inquisition at large when it describes the polarization that Emil Darkhammer's methods create (i.e. while there are those who, like the blood-bathing GK approve, there are those who strongly disapprove).

The methods differ, but what you're calling into question is their dedication. The Bloodtide was a pretty extreme case, it demanded extreme measures to even achieve a Pyrrhic victory (as I recall, the Knights arrived after the nano-collective and Bloodthirster had already destroyed a fair bit, there wasn't much to save). The Knights had a simple choice; they could either fight and die like all the other defenders, or they could use the tools provided to achieve victory. 

 

Let's also consider that even Malleus Inquisitors probably wouldn't have been as knowledgeable as the Knights, and thus might not have even thought of using the Sister's blood in that way. After all, it's basically sorcery (they sacrificed something pure and redirected Khorne's hunger into it instead of them). 

 

In Black Library publications, some of them have humanity to them. I'm thinking of Inquisitor Ravenor from the books I've read that feature him. Yet he didn't strike me as a radical. Which I guess brings me to my next point, the suggestion that a Puritan especially would approve of Grey Knights massacring untainted Sisters of Battle and bathing in their blood. It seems to me that puritans or radicals would be equally as likely to approve or disapprove.

The way the story is presented on the internet irks me. In the codex, the story makes it very clear the Knights had no choice, and the Sisters represented their only narrow chance of victory. Being untainted was the whole point, they couldn't use ordinary human blood, as its not as valuable to the warp and lacks the purity. Puritans wouldn't be comfortable with the methods, but they'd accept it was the correct choice because they're the Grey Knights (and thus beyond reproach in such matters). Radicals would be quite interested, as blood is currency to the warp and the rituals involved (mixing the Sisters blood with certain ungents and combining it with the Knights own psychic powers and Aegis battle-suits). I'm not saying the slaughter of Sisters and blood-magick would sit lightly with the Inquisition, but given that its the Knights doing it, they'd understand if not exactly approve. 

 

Looking at human history, there have been many examples of strong, "badass" leaders who could be very ruthless with their enemies, but who still had loyalty to their own, or who had lines that they would not cross to acheive success. Just for one example, I think of Charlemagne who was very good and loyal to his family, good to his people, but quite ruthless in dealing with his enemies like the Saxons.

Which is precisely why the Knights are so effective, because they operate on a level beyond morality. The enemy they fight is so monstrous and extreme, they have to be equally ruthless and callous. For the Knights, everyone but themselves and the Emperor (and possibly the Custodes too) is a potential vector for the warp. It's why they trust almost no one else but the Ordo Malleus, and why their existence is kept a secret from the Imperium. They're almost as horrifying a force as the Archenemy. 

 

It makes sense to me that there could be an Inquisitor who is a puritan (which to me means he has no truck whatsoever with the daemonic and, being Ordo Hereticus, is very strict on psykers) who would view butchering a bunch of pure Adepta Sororitas and wearing their blood on their armour as over one of those lines, and even wandering into the realm of partaking in Chaotic ritual or certainly Chaotic tactics which is dangerously on the verge of something radicals could do. I do think that even a ruthless and utterly pragmatic inquisitor could be outraged by such an extreme. The way I see Lord Inquisitor Soulis reacting is not saying "that's extreme" but saying "humanity is doomed to fall to Chaos if it must adopt such clearly evil methods. We have already lost to Chaos if this is the only way. I refuse to believe that. Furthermore, you wasted good stock, pure servants who could have equally won the battle fighting alongside you instead of smeared on your armour and could have served the Imperium for years to come." Or words to that effect.

To which the Knights would answer 'well you weren't there, you're ignorant of how the warp operates and the nature of the Bloodtide, and we're above question with regards to the powers we wield'. Which is all true. The Sisters had already tried and failed to contain the threat, they're still mostly human soldiers at the end of the day. When the Knights arrived they were down to a handful of survivors which would've died soon anyway. I'm not denying it's a pretty gruesome act that would horrify most Inquisitors, but their stock in trade is making extreme, callous decisions. As I mentioned earlier, the blood magick would intrigue or disgust (depending the Inquisitors views on sorcery), but its the Grey Knights. 

 

The fluff loves to talk about inconsistency in Inquisitorial thought. And if said inquisitor has a special affiliation with the Sisters he might be more inclined to side with them and consider the GK the villains of this story.

Probably, but personal feelings can't get in the way of the job. As I mentioned in the other thread, Inquisitors (regardless of their views or their mentors influence) have to be screened, trained and pass a lot of trials to carry the rosette. They might decry the waste, but they'd balance that with the fact the Knights not only saved the world in question, but they also banished a daemonic threat. 

 

 

Plus also a martyr by definition is one who is killed by the OTHER side, not by one's own side.

 

Not at all. Martyrs are those who sacrifice their lives for a higher cause. It might not be exactly willing sacrifice (ie the Incans), but its still martyrdom in the simplest sense. Also, you're forgetting that the Imperium routinely sacrifices its soldiers, or even shoots them to prove a point (ie Commissars), or purges them for heresy (ie crusades). Team kills is part and parcel of the Imperium, a lot of the ruling classes view it as a necessary part of weeding out the weak and unworthy from the Emperor's plan. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

If no Grey Knight has ever 'fallen', which I interpret to include any transgression against the Imperium, and your =][= is hunting Grey Knights, they're the radical.

 

Would be my position.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

If no Grey Knight has ever 'fallen', which I interpret to include any transgression against the Imperium, and your =][= is hunting Grey Knights, they're the radical.

 

I don't think we'd be that broad. Knights can and do purge Imperial forces like Guardsmen for the crime of knowing Knights exist. The thing about 'no Knight has ever fallen' refers to no Knight ever serving Chaos, which is a claim no other order (except maybe Custodes) can make. Which is my overarching point, considering the powers they wield and the knowledge they posses (not to mention the resources they command), if the Knights ever did fall, the Imperium would be finished in a heartbeat. 

 

But yeah, hunting Knights...er have fun with that. They know you're coming, assuming you can nullify their powers somehow (which is the only way the fight would even be vaguely possible), they're still the best equipped Astartes in the Imperium. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, we've had Logan Grimnar cutting the head off a Grey Knight Grand MAster (before the Grand MAster can even react...), so the Imperium does and can murder the Grey Kngihts with no repercusions.

 

That said, the Khornite Knights story is rubbish.  And should not be used in any fluff discussion ever.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Well, we've had Logan Grimnar cutting the head off a Grey Knight Grand MAster (before the Grand MAster can even react...), so the Imperium does and can murder the Grey Kngihts with no repercusions.

Space Wolves /=/ Imperium. 'Emperor's Gift' makes that quite clear, they're basically on the verge of being declared outlaws most of the time. Which suits Fenrisians fine, they hate the Adeptus Terra and Ministorum with a passion. 

 

 

That said, the Khornite Knights story is rubbish.  And should not be used in any fluff discussion ever.

 

No, I think it's just badly misrepresented on the internet. Rather like how people turn Draigo into a strawman. If you actually read the actual story in the actual codex, it makes sense and has nuance. On the internet, we instead get boring 'lel they put Sisters into a grinder' or 'wow so Draigo is basically a Mary Sue'.

 

The Bloodtide is a great story about Knights, because it demonstrates everything we're debating in this thread; how far would Knights go in fighting Chaos, what magick would not they not stoop to using, how does the warp interact with realspace technology etc. 

[Gentlemanloser]

No way mate, no way...

 

I've read that story many times.  It's nonsensical, and downright misogynistic.  The GK slaughter Innocent and Pure Sisters of Battle.  Allies to them, that have proved to be utterly immune to the Bloodtide.

 

Just to make sure the GK totaly immunity, remains, total immunity (that has *never* failed in over 10,000 years.  And there was no justification to think it would do so now).

 

It was a pointless act of barbarism and savagry, dedicated to oppose the Chaos God of barbarism and savagry.  And was wholey unnessecary.

 

If anything, it was nothing more than an act of Worship for Khorne.

 

 

Space Wolves /=/ Imperium. 'Emperor's Gift' makes that quite clear, they're basically on the verge of being declared outlaws most of the time. Which suits Fenrisians fine, they hate the Adeptus Terra and Ministorum with a passion.

 

They've not been declared Excommunictus Traitorus yet.  Which can only give the impression that a Space Marine Chapter Master can Murder a Grey Knight Grand Master (in cold blood) and not be punished for it.

 

This isn't the hidden actions for say the sneaky Dark Angels, who blow up an entire Battle Cruiser so there are no traces of what happened, to whom, by who.

 

I really don't think any Chapter Master would get away with killing another (non Traitor) Chapter Master without direct instructions from the High Lords.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I've read that story many times.  It's nonsensical, and downright misogynistic.  The GK slaughter Innocent and Pure Sisters of Battle.  Allies to them, that have proved to be utterly immune to the Bloodtide.

But they weren't immune to the Bloodtide, that was the point. The Sisters lost most of their convent in the fighting, they were down to a handful of survivors when the Knights arrived. The Bloodtide is a nano-machine weapon, which was then tainted by the Bloodthirster when it was unleashed. So, not only are they fighting an incarnation of war, they're fighting an ancient superweapon from humanity's past that's akin to the life-eater virus. Even the Knights stood no chance without a way to combat the Bloodtide itself (the daemon and warp influence they could deal with, the nano-machines not so much). 

 

 

Just to make sure the GK totaly immunity, remains, total immunity (that has *never* failed in over 10,000 years.  And there was no justification to think it would do so now).

 

Well, the Bloodtide wouldn't have corrupted them, because even if the Bloodthirster had offered to spare them its ravages in exchange for their lives, they would've refused and chosen to die pure instead. The Knights remain pure and loyal because of their choices. Not their gene-seed, not even their faith (although both of those are powerful sources of strength for their resolve and abilities). That's what 'Emperor's Gift' explains, Knights could always choose to fall, and it would be infinitely easier to give in than walk the narrow road of loyalty. 

 

 

It was a pointless act of barbarism and savagry, dedicated to oppose the Chaos God of barbarism and savagry.  And was wholey unnessecary.

 

I really hope you're trolling dude, because I cannot believe you read the same story and came away with that reaction. The answer present itself right there; yeah, the Knights invoked blood magick to shield themselves from the nano-machines. It wasn't pointless, it was their only chance at victory. More to the point, they still suffered losses anyway, it wasn't a perfect or even especially long-lived defence. The Sisters blood got them inside the chapel and to the Bloodthirster, and even on the approach they lost battle-brothers. 

 

 

If anything, it was nothing more than an act of Worship for Khorne.

 

Well technically every act of murder empowers Khorne, that's why he's the dominant force in the warp. But in order to actually worship him and recieve his notice, you need to offer up skulls. Blood itself pleases him, but that's true of the entire pantheon (even the non-aligned lessers like blood). If the Knights wanted to invoke Khorne, they would've had to use the Sisters skulls. 

 

They've not been declared Excommunictus Traitorus yet.  Which can only give the impression that a Space Marine Chapter Master can Murder a Grey Knight Grand Master (in cold blood) and not be punished for it.

Logan Grimnar is a special case. If you remember, in the book the Inquisition comes very close to doing just that, and its heavily implied they're simply biding their time to have another go at it (balanced by the need to keep the Wolves in the fold, as they're one of the most famous and effective Chapters). It also wasn't in cold blood, the Grandmaster in question had helped the Inquisition slaughter the Wolves without provocation, at a meeting that was supposed to be a truce. Grimnar even spells the facts out before he swings his axe, to prove his point. 

 

 

This isn't the hidden actions for say the sneaky Dark Angels, who blow up an entire Battle Cruiser so there are no traces of what happened, to whom, by who.

 

No, but of course Dark Angels are a whole other story. They'd be declared Excommunicated if the Imperium even knew half their story, let alone the full truth about the Fallen. 

 

 

I really don't think any Chapter Master would get away with killing another (non Traitor) Chapter Master without direct instructions from the High Lords.

 

(shrug) The High Lords pretend to have sway over the Chapter Masters, but in reality its more a political relationship than a direct chain of command. I think in their view its easier to stay out of Chapter politics until things get out of hand (ie Badab scale conflict). There isn't really a court to try someone like Grimnar, and anyone who was there would probably agree he was within his rights to strike down the one who ordered the unjustified deaths of his battle-brothers. 

[Gentlemanloser]

They were immune to the bloodtide.

They had encounter it, and found it had no effect on them.

That was the reason the GKs chose to bathe in thier Blood. So they could gain immunity to it. It was sorcery they used to (presumably) beocme immune to the taint of the 'tide, not the mechanically side of it. (As you siad, mechanically, they still died to it. They just didn't succumb to the taint. Which they *wouldn't* have , anyway).

GKs don't use Sorcery to become immunit to the other technological weapons of Chaos, only the Taint/Warp side of things.

Otherwise we'd have Psychic Invulnerable saves!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I think the heated debate in this thread -- and very different perception from reading the same events from the same book (i.e. reviewing the same evidence -- supports my original thesis that a puritan inquisitor could strongly object to the actions taken by the Grey Knights in this instance and would not necessarily "hold his nose" because it is the Grey Knights and they are incorruptible therefore it must have been acceptable (hope I'm not misstating Reclusiarch Darius' basic position).

 

Gentleman loser sees the act as "a pointless act of barbarism and savagry, dedicated to oppose the Chaos God of barbarism and savagry.  And was wholey unnessecary." I could see a puritan inquisitor buying into this, since certain strains of puritan would be so rabidly opposed to anything that smacks of sorcery that this blood magic would, in their view, be heresy. It would be tantamount (in the eyes of some) to agreeing to that bargain with Khorne you mentioned, RD, rather than suffer defeat and the Inquisitor could opine that they should have accepted defeat rather than debase themselves thus. Just because we gamers know that the Grey Knights are incorruptible, doesn't mean that individual inquisitors couldn't (quietly) think to themselves that perhaps the GK have gone too far and are at risk of falling to chaos. As such, when given an opportunity to get rid of the surviving knights from that incident, might take it as a precaution (not hunting the Grey Knights at large).

[Gentlemanloser]

All Psychic Powers are Sorcerery. ;)

 

There's no difference.

 

(And the GK Codex clarifies this! :P)

[Eddie Orlock]

All Psychic Powers are Sorcerery.

There's no difference.

(And the GK Codex clarifies this! )

I suppose we could argue this as authoritative over the 'Dark Heresy' distinction that Psyonics are an innate ability and Sorcery is a trained skill, but it'd be a discussion as to which book was more canonical.

Wait. Emoticons.

[Gentlemanloser]

:D

 

Well, one's a 40k book, and the other's a RPG book. ;)

[DinoDoc]

All Psychic Powers are Sorcerery.

There's no difference.

(And the GK Codex clarifies this! )

Which one has the least Ward influence? I'd go with that one.

[jeffersonian000]

While I can see Ward's goal with the Bloodtide story was to paint the Grey Knights as those willing to use any means necessary to stop Chaos from gaining a foothold, the unfortunate reality is that the Bloodtide story does more to hurt the Grey Knight mythology by putting them in a place to enact such a massive piece of misogynistic fiction that GKs now look more like Chaos worshipers than Chaos destroyers. And that is bad. Its a fictional universe, and a fictional crisis, where a fictional group of incorruptible Knight murder most heinously a group of incorruptible Nuns to "literally" appease a Blood God long enough to defeat the incursion. As a fan, I find this one story to be a travesty, a horrible example of misogyny in a male dominate fictionally that was completely unnecessary! There was absolutely no reason to write in a need to kill women so men could succeed, in a book that already extolls the virtues of those men as being incorruptible. Everything we read about Grey Knights tell us that they would have had no need to slaughter the Daughters of the Emperor in order to defeat this specific for, yet that story made it to print. No reason. None.

 

I'm not a Ward-basher, and generally like the codexes he writes, but this one drop of sewage in an otherwise pristine pool of work has given that work a bad taste .. for no reason at all. As such, I chose to ignore it in favor of being able to enjoy the setting rather than being forever turned away.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide

 

 

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides taint, the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.  The innocent blood thus spilled <snip> So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption

 

Taint, corruption.

 

The Incorruptible requiring the sacrifice of innocent to stop the risk of corruption?

 

LOLWAT?

 

Incorruptible at risk of corruption?

 

So are the Grey Knights really Incorruptible?

 

 

A Grey Knights psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemons dark appetites and thus entirely immune to corruption

 

Oh.

 

Yet they still require a talisman to ensure that being incorruptible, they wouldn't be corrupted...

[Eddie Orlock]

Yet they still require a talisman to ensure that being incorruptible, they wouldn't be corrupted...

Wait, maybe the knights are incorruptable, but their gear isn't? See, if the taint seeps into the armour and the marine is in the armour the armour and the marine wind up in a sort of wrestling match and fall prey to the active demons. So, they had to protect their armour, for without it they wouldn't be combat effective against the demons.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Aegis. ;)

 

Otherwise Chaos would just attack the Grey Knights armour all the time and not the Grey Knight.  Nurgle would just rot their PA/TDA, etc, etc.

 

Their armour gets penetrated by Chaos Bullets and Weapons all the time.  That's just standard.  The corruption of the soul, that's the important bit. ;)

 

Plus, where is it mentioned that the Bloodtide is a nano-weapon?  The passage only mentions a flood of gore.  Nothing about it being dark age tech...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

In fairness, I think -- as Reclusiarch Darius pointed out -- it wasn't warp taint that they "needed" the Sisters' blood for, it was the nanomachines that had been corrupted/co-opted by the Bloodthirster. Which I don't really understand but I'm prepared to let that pass since this is 40K, after all.

 

My bottom line is that reasonable people can differ in their perception/reaction to these events and therefore I think that is is entirely plausible that there would be inquisitors out there that would be outraged by the GK's actions in this incident.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why aren't the GK killing SoB every day now?  If they need thier blood to make thier armour physically tamper proof?

 

With the pull they, and the Inquisition have, it would be little difficulty to say "Oi, church.  Pony up some of your daughters.  We need to be safe to protect you!".

 

;)

 

It's not like the Imperium doesn't sacrifice countless Psykers per day already...

[Eddie Orlock]

Why aren't the GK killing SoB every day now?  If they need thier blood to make thier armour physically tamper proof?

What's so say they don't? Obviously it was an extended patrol.

 

See, we can infer from this that there are regular blood drives in the convents, 'cause Sororita blood is a renewable resource. The blood is pooled on titan and the various strikeforces receive allotments to ritually proof their vestiments on a regular basis. The girls regularly bleed for their liege.

 

The group in question, have seen more than their fair share of action, had obviously ran low and needed more in a hurry.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Well in "Sacrifice", it actually kinda goes into how a Knight's war gear is made, prepared, and sanctified

[Reclusiarch Darius]

They were immune to the bloodtide.

They had encounter it, and found it had no effect on them.

Dude, it's a nano-machine superweapon. They're not immune to a bunch of tiny robots eating at their armour and flesh.

I think the heated debate in this thread -- and very different perception from reading the same events from the same book (i.e. reviewing the same evidence -- supports my original thesis that a puritan inquisitor could strongly object to the actions taken by the Grey Knights in this instance and would not necessarily "hold his nose" because it is the Grey Knights and they are incorruptible therefore it must have been acceptable (hope I'm not misstating Reclusiarch Darius' basic position).

Well, let me restate it in more simple terms. A puritan probably would find it uncomfortable that the Knights used blood magick (which incidentally is how all their wargear and even ammunition is created). But he can neither challenge them or condemn them, due to their standing. If he did, he'd quickly find himself without allies and likely purged at some point in the future (the Chapter take a very dim view of people interfering in their work, well intentioned or not).

Gentleman loser sees the act as "a pointless act of barbarism and savagry, dedicated to oppose the Chaos God of barbarism and savagry. And was wholey unnessecary." I could see a puritan inquisitor buying into this, since certain strains of puritan would be so rabidly opposed to anything that smacks of sorcery that this blood magic would, in their view, be heresy. It would be tantamount (in the eyes of some) to agreeing to that bargain with Khorne you mentioned, RD, rather than suffer defeat and the Inquisitor could opine that they should have accepted defeat rather than debase themselves thus. Just because we gamers know that the Grey Knights are incorruptible, doesn't mean that individual inquisitors couldn't (quietly) think to themselves that perhaps the GK have gone too far and are at risk of falling to chaos. As such, when given an opportunity to get rid of the surviving knights from that incident, might take it as a precaution (not hunting the Grey Knights at large).

Except if an Inquisitor did execute Grey Knights, he'd be declared Excommunicate Traitoris and hunted down by the rest of the Chapter. Which goes back to what I said earlier. Yeah sure, an Inquisitor can think nasty thoughts about the Knights all he likes, but he cannot DO anything about it.

All Psychic Powers are Sorcerery.

Well to clarify, all psychic powers are drawn from the warp, and thus the distinction between sorcery and Emperor-blessed powers is a helpful delusion for lesser minds. Knights know they draw upon the same power that they seek to thwart (and which also seeks their destruction/corruption). Hence why Knights resort to any means necessary, including blood magick, because for them its possible to draw upon the warp in ways no mortal could do.

While I can see Ward's goal with the Bloodtide story was to paint the Grey Knights as those willing to use any means necessary to stop Chaos from gaining a foothold, the unfortunate reality is that the Bloodtide story does more to hurt the Grey Knight mythology by putting them in a place to enact such a massive piece of misogynistic fiction that GKs now look more like Chaos worshipers than Chaos destroyers.

First off, can we please stop throwing around 'misogyny' in this debate. Its a highly charged word, and it doesn't apply at all to the situation. Knights have zero interest in gender, they're post-human living weapons.

And that is bad. Its a fictional universe, and a fictional crisis, where a fictional group of incorruptible Knight murder most heinously a group of incorruptible Nuns to "literally" appease a Blood God long enough to defeat the incursion. As a fan, I find this one story to be a travesty, a horrible example of misogyny in a male dominate fictionally that was completely unnecessary! There was absolutely no reason to write in a need to kill women so men could succeed, in a book that already extolls the virtues of those men as being incorruptible. Everything we read about Grey Knights tell us that they would have had no need to slaughter the Daughters of the Emperor in order to defeat this specific for, yet that story made it to print. No reason. None.

I feel like quoting it in full, because I doubt you read it. Which I will refrain from, as I know you own the codex and therefore can easily check.

I'm gonna spell it out in short though, because I feel like people don't get it at all;

- Priests, whilst maintaining a church, accidentally release the Bloodtide and a Bloodthirster when they move a statue

- The Bloodthirster proves greater than any force on the planet to contain. In addition, it corrupts the Bloodtide (a nano-machine collective designed as a planet killer, much in the way of the life-eater virus).

- The Bloodthirster and Bloodtide overwhelm the PDF, Guard regiments and Sisters stationed on the planet.

- The Sisters fight bravely, but they lack both the means, the knowledge, and the numbers to prevail. They are whittled down to a handful of desperate survivors

- Knights respond, arriving in strike force strength

- They consider the nature of the threat. Their psychic powers and gene-seed mean they can resist the spreading influence of the warp.

- The Bloodtide however is a wholly realspace weapon, and sentient after a fashion. It would tear them apart just as it tore apart all the other defenders, as it replicates from the blood of those it slays

- The Knights therefore need a way to get through the cloud of nano-machines to get to the Bloodthirster at the centre. They are prepared to suffer losses to achieve victory, but they need enough Knights to survive to banish the Bloodthirster (who is a singular opponent even for them).

- The Sisters will die anyway if the Knights don't succeed, so they choose to sacrifice them in order to use their blood. Sisters, unlike ordinary soldiers, have pure souls and therefore the purest blood on hand (barring the Knights own, which they need already).

- They proceed to mix the blood of the slain Sisters with other ungents and sacred oils, further increasing its efficacy in holding back the corruption of the warp. It also serves the dual purpose of providing an ablative layer of blood for the Bloodtide itself to feed on, rather than the Knights own.

- The Knights assault the church, suffering significant losses even with the protection of the Sisters blood

- Enough Knights survive the assault to reach the Bloodthirster. It kills several more before they banish it back to the warp

A Grey Knights psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemons dark appetites and thus entirely immune to corruption

Oh.

Yet they still require a talisman to ensure that being incorruptible, they wouldn't be corrupted...

Immune to corruption, but not immune to being destroyed by the warp. Also, 'Emperors Gift' explains that Knights could fall, but choose not to. Their defences are layered; first their Aegis plate, then the wards tattooed into their flesh (even etched on their bones), then their psychic wards, then their mental defences of faith, brotherhood and hate. Not to mention their extensive training and psycho-indoctrination. Having said all that, Knights can still die fighting daemons.

Its a confusing issue because the codex presents Knights as infallible, and yet 'Emperor's Gift' makes it clear that nothing is that certain. Given every codex likes to present its race in the best light, and Knights greatest claim to fame is their unbroken record of loyalty, its not surprising Ward wrote it as 'nah not evah!'. ADB presents a more nuanced view, which is that like any human being, Knights can still choose. So far none have chosen to fall, but it doesn't remove the possibility, it just makes it extremely unlikely.

Plus, where is it mentioned that the Bloodtide is a nano-weapon? The passage only mentions a flood of gore. Nothing about it being dark age tech...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide#.U3YZo_mSx8E

In fairness, I think -- as Reclusiarch Darius pointed out -- it wasn't warp taint that they "needed" the Sisters' blood for, it was the nanomachines that had been corrupted/co-opted by the Bloodthirster. Which I don't really understand but I'm prepared to let that pass since this is 40K, after all.

Chaos can corrupt anything, even machines.

My bottom line is that reasonable people can differ in their perception/reaction to these events and therefore I think that is is entirely plausible that there would be inquisitors out there that would be outraged by the GK's actions in this incident.

As would the Order of the Ebon Chalice. However, no one can sanction the Knights. So, as I said before, they can rage all they want, but if any were to take action or interfere with the Chapter, they'd be purged.

Why aren't the GK killing SoB every day now? If they need thier blood to make thier armour physically tamper proof?

They already do with psykers, as part of the creation of Aegis armour. They need an additional defense against a specific threat that required blood. Also, no defence is perfect. Plus, the Knights were acting in desperation, I don't think they liked killing the Sisters, and they certainly wouldn't make a habit of it (even just for purely political reasons).

Well in "Sacrifice", it actually kinda goes into how a Knight's war gear is made, prepared, and sanctified

Seconded. When you realise that every bit of armour, weaponry and ammunition Knights possess has been created by blood magick and sorcery, you can understand why doing what they did fighting the Bloodtide was entirely in keeping with their methods.

[Gentlemanloser]

http://wh40k.lexican...de#.U3YZo_mSx8E

Blocked at work.

What source is given for it though? It's not from the GK Dex? Have BL made the Bloodtide into a short?

They already do with psykers, as part of the creation of Aegis armour.

And Psybolt ammo. And keeping the big E alive. Alluded to that in my post.

(As an aside, becuase I *really* don't want to focus on it. Any claims of Mysogonry would be directed towards the author, not the Grey Knights. It's not the first time they've been slaughtered for little to no reasons, and if I'm ot mistaken, prior to this story, much like the Grey Knights themselves - Sister players, please correct me if I'm wrong - only a *single* Sister of battle had ever fallen to the Warp. Such is thier faith in the Emperor. Yet now, nearly a whole chapter succumbs...)

but if any were to take action or interfere with the Chapter, they'd be purged.

Unless you're the space wolves. /grumble

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Blocked at work.

What source is given for it though? It's not from the GK Dex? Have BL made the Bloodtide into a short?

'Hunt for Voldorious', Space Marines 5th edition, Grey Knights 5th edition. The Bloodtide has appeared before in the canon.

(As an aside, becuase I *really* don't want to focus on it. Any claims of Mysogonry would be directed towards the author, not the Grey Knights. It's not the first time they've been slaughtered for little to no reasons, and if I'm ot mistaken, prior to this story, much like the Grey Knights themselves - Sister players, please correct me if I'm wrong - only a *single* Sister of battle had ever fallen to the Warp. Such is thier faith in the Emperor. Yet now, nearly a whole chapter succumbs...)

I'd be careful of just denigrating someone to that extent based off one story they wrote.

Sisters are still just mortals. They are capable of facing warspawn and not lose their minds (as they are fanatical zealots and at least partially blessed by the Emperor, as evidenced by many Saints drawn from their ranks and their own faith powers), but they're still just humans with better gear than the average soldier. It would take a lot to corrupt a Sister or a convent, but its not impossible. It's just much more likely they'd choose to die in a blaze of glory than succumb.

Unless you're the space wolves. /grumble

The Inquisition tried sanctioning them, with two whole Chapters backing them up no less, and still came away worse from it. I think Grimnar was within his rights, given the circumstances. And its not like the Knights to engage in personal vendettas. What happened happened, and they'd rather get back to their main job. That said, the Wolves still need to be careful. As Bjorn warned, they need to avoid provoking their enemies further.