Changes to psychic powers and Mephiston

[A Son of Sanguinius]

Valerian -

My original post was specifically about using Mephiston but not with the powers he comes with. I mentioned Tycho as he has 2 different stat lines, which in retrospect was a poor example.

[ChapelXIII]

I looked up the Third Edition rules for special characters. The only special character who could change their wargear was Lemartes to match whether the Death Company had jump packs or not. 

 

They should totally bring this back as I love Lemartes, but I don't run Death Company with their gold plated jump packs (so expensive).

[Calnus]

Since there's a good probability we'd have to roll for Wings (if we even get to keep it), and therefore have at best a 1/2 chance in having it on Mephy each game, I'd vastly prefer just keeping his powers as-is, no choices.  If you can't find something useful to do with a mini-MC that can turn on a jump pack and S10 at will, you may need tactical help.

[ianj253]

So, I played mephiston with biomancy today and it's just not the same. However, it's worth noting the changes to ICs joining units now. The rules about ICs are gone about not being able to join a single model unit. This means Mephiston can be joined by ICs. If you take BA as allies and Red scorpions as primary you can make quite the death star: Mephiston, Chapter Master with bike+ shield eternal , and Sevrin Loth. All models are different toughness so you go with majority of T6. Loth picks his powers and gets invisibility to cast on the unit. If Mephiston gets biomancy the whole unit is T9.

[Emperors Immortals]

 

Reason One: Furioso.

 

Reason Two: Librarian.

 

 

A furioso librarian, however, is still a dreadnought. On any turn that he is providing one (or two? I can't remember - eh, it doesn't matter because for all we know the Mastery Levels scale will change) mastery level on a stick, he's still a Strength 6 monstrosity could be hitting on Strength 7 AP 2 (with a force axe) or even Strength 8 if there's a priest nearby (and if there isn't a priest nearby, what did you do wrong?). And he has a heavy flamer and a meltagun and, potentially, a Strength 8 AP 2 magna-grapple.

Furioso Librarians are currently Mastery Level one, come equipped with a Force Axe in one hand and a Blood Fist with built in Storm Bolter on the other arm. They are not eligible for purchasing upgrades as there are no upgrade options for a Furioso Librarian Dreadnought.

 

As for these changes, the rulebook will alter what we think White Dwarf says and the FAQs will alter what we think the rulebook says...

 

But FAQ just made Furioso ML2 right? Cause I'm relying on that formy game.

[Jolemai]

That is correct, this has now changed according to our FAQ.

[Morollan]

An all-Biomancy Mephiston is now potentially S9, T9, I10, A7, AP2, Fleet, Eternal Warrior with 4+FNP. Just need to get him into combat!

[Leonaides]

Special characters like ahriman, tigurius can pick different powers so why should meph be different? And calgar has the option to fight in power armour or term armour.

[Shaezus]

An all-Biomancy Mephiston is now potentially S9, T9, I10, A7, AP2, Fleet, Eternal Warrior with 4+FNP. Just need to get him into combat!

Where does the AP2 come from? I know he gets smash but that's just 1 attack. If mephy gets 7 attacks at AP2 he's pretty much auto-include now!

[TheHarrower]

 

An all-Biomancy Mephiston is now potentially S9, T9, I10, A7, AP2, Fleet, Eternal Warrior with 4+FNP. Just need to get him into combat!

Where does the AP2 come from? I know he gets smash but that's just 1 attack. If mephy gets 7 attacks at AP2 he's pretty much auto-include now!

 

 

Smash gives all your attacks AP2 regardless if you do the double strength.

[Morollan]

What he ^^ said.

[knife&fork]

An all-Biomancy Mephiston is now potentially S9, T9, I10, A7, AP2, Fleet, Eternal Warrior with 4+FNP. Just need to get him into combat!

 

Sure, but how are you planning on getting all those powers off with the new system? 

 

It takes roughly 4D6 to get a ML1 power through with the same chance as the old LD10 stat test. And that's with an increased risk of perils and the opponent getting a 'deny the witch' on top of that. 

 

Mephiston is still a good beat stick but he'll need support to stay competitive in this edition. Either in the form of cheap psyker allies to get you a greater warp charge pool, or through inexpensive ICs as passive, non psychic, buffers and protection. I'm thinking things like priests.

[Jolemai]

The question is, what are the best cost effective batteries? Inquisitors?

[Morollan]

 

An all-Biomancy Mephiston is now potentially S9, T9, I10, A7, AP2, Fleet, Eternal Warrior with 4+FNP. Just need to get him into combat!

 

Sure, but how are you planning on getting all those powers off with the new system? 

 

It takes roughly 4D6 to get a ML1 power through with the same chance as the old LD10 stat test. And that's with an increased risk of perils and the opponent getting a 'deny the witch' on top of that. 

 

Mephiston is still a good beat stick but he'll need support to stay competitive in this edition. Either in the form of cheap psyker allies to get you a greater warp charge pool, or through inexpensive ICs as passive, non psychic, buffers and protection. I'm thinking things like priests.

 

 

I certainly wouldn't bother putting four dice into a WC1 power. Three is good enough and I'm reasonably happy with two. But yes, you're unlikely to get all three powers off each turn unless you bring a lot of psykers with you. I'd consider taking a few Furioso Librarians as they can contribute Warp Charges and still function reasonably well without actually using them.

[knife&fork]

You could always tack on that inquisitor because of his passive buffs. 

 

Before you go crazy with allied psykers or BA librarians it's worth considering just how much you are prepared to invest to make a single model useful. Take a step back think how you could use those points in other ways.

You always get the extra dice for dispells which is nice, but maybe it's better to invest in your strengths rather than trying to patch your shortcomings.

 

 

 

I certainly wouldn't bother putting four dice into a WC1 power. Three is good enough and I'm reasonably happy with two. But yes, you're unlikely to get all three powers off each turn unless you bring a lot of psykers with you. I'd consider taking a few Furioso Librarians as they can contribute Warp Charges and still function reasonably well without actually using them.

 

 

I didn't write that because I think you should always throw 4 dice at WC1 power either, it was simply to illustrate just how difficult is has become to pass powers. 

[Jostal]

it sounds to me that Psykers are going to be a must have in this edition, just incase you run into a "Mage" army. Having Meph as a tanker and Denier sounds very tactically savy. Keep him in the back field to deny powers and possibly summon allies (Daemonology) if you have enough left over warp charges.

 

Technically, Meph's deny the witch roll will be a minimum of 4+ (Against ML 3 Psykers) and 2+ (against ML 1 Psykers). I havent had a chance to look at the rules yet, but does each player turn have a psychic phase? or does each Game Round have a Psychic phase?

[Morollan]

The psychic phase is each player turn. Mephiston will usually deny powers cast against him (or a unit within 12" of him) on a 4+ (+1 for being a psyker, +1 for being higher level than the caster) but that doesn't apply to non-targeted powers, which always need a 6.

[Jostal]

So if an opponent summons some daemons (3 warp charges) and gets 4 successes, do you need to roll two 6+ Deny the witch rolls to stop the summon? or do you need a 6+ success for each one of their successes to stop the power? And you cant continnually burn warp charge dice, you have to select a number of dice and roll them as a deny roll, hoping you get enough successes?

[Jakbal]

So if an opponent summons some daemons (3 warp charges) and gets 4 successes, do you need to roll two 6+ Deny the witch rolls to stop the summon? or do you need a 6+ success for each one of their successes to stop the power? And you cant continnually burn warp charge dice, you have to select a number of dice and roll them as a deny roll, hoping you get enough successes?

 

If your opponent rolls 4 warp charges with success, you need to deny all 4 of them to revoke the benefit of their psychic power.  You must select how many dice you will roll in your attempt to deny, and if you are denying a blessing then you need to roll a 6+ for each of their successful rolls.

[knife&fork]

it sounds to me that Psykers are going to be a must have in this edition, just incase you run into a "Mage" army.  

 

An Eldar or Daemon 'Mage' list can push 20-40 + D6 warp charge in a battleforged army. We can't build a playable list to match that.

[Cronhour]

want to post a link to some of those lists? with the increased chance of perils and what you'd have to take to get those numbers of dice I imagine they'd be pretty vunerable to something, such as a mix of drop pod/doaing shooting, or how about putting a null rod inquisitor in a raven with a reclusiarch and some deathcompany and going caster hunting, if they're that focused on psychic powers see how like a unit invunerable to they're psychic phase causing them to strike at I1.

[ianj253]

If you throw him with the chapter master it helps a bit to tank the wounds Mephiston can't take. Most eldar list will generate 6 WC + d6 outside of seer star which gets 16 + d6.

[Jostal]

Thats nasty. It sounds like with mage lists you are better off taking some long range high strength weapons to hope to get past thier invul saves and wipe them out before they get the chance to use all their fancy psychic powers.

[knife&fork]

You can ally with yourself, so it's really easy to buff the number of WC you generate for those lists. 

 

Eldar really only need to get two powers off, fortune and invisibility. They won't generate quite as many dice as daemons but they can pump all of them through the farseers and safely ignore perils with the ghost helm. 

 

Daemons can play the summoning spam and spice it up with some 'invisibility' buffed units. They can bring enough good, expendable psykers to not care about any perils.  

[Morticon]

You can ally with yourself, so it's really easy to buff the number of WC you generate for those lists. .  

 

I stand to be corrected on this K&F, but you cant ally with yourself.  Your allies cannot be from the same faction.  You can however take multiple combined arms detachments, which is essentially the same thing.