If it's true...

[Dread]

With the things I've read, unless an errata comes out, in the psychic phase of the impending edition, we are gonna ROCK!! All the plus dice and the pschic level, well we will have to wait and see but if.....BLAMM!!!

 

I know there won't be much on this topic until the book comes out but speculation is always good to talk about.

[Gentlemanloser]

We're actually taking a nerf.  And depending on how Force Weapons will work, maybe a massive one.

 

In 7th, come the Psychic Phase, we'll now have to choose between Hammerhand (Or Force Weapon) or a Deny attempt.

 

Where as currently we can Hammerhand *and* Deny every Psychic Shooting Attack aimed at us.

[Quozzo]

And Denying is only on a 6+ but gains 1+ for a PML if I recall. It also means that they have limited Deny rolls with a max of 6 per turn. It seems my 30 paladin list with 30 large blast templates may be on the table, they cant deny them all!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

We're actually taking a nerf.  And depending on how Force Weapons will work, maybe a massive one.

 

Brotherhood Banner ;)

 

And Denying is only on a 6+ but gains 1+ for a PML if I recall. It also means that they have limited Deny rolls with a max of 6 per turn. It seems my 30 paladin list with 30 large blast templates may be on the table, they cant deny them all! 

You only generate 2D6 warp charges, so at best that's 12 large blasts a turn. Which is still absurd, but not 30. 

[Gentlemanloser]

1d6 + 30.

 

For 30 Paladin taking as solodins in an unbound list. ;)

[boreas]

I'd be very suprised if it's much of a nerf for force weapons. I played a 1000pts (with a friend having 1000pts of orks) vs 2000pts of nids yesterday. The nids player had 2 psykers (2 Hive Tyrants), so 2+d6 dices (5-6 average). I had 5 psykers, so 8-9 dice on average. Remember, I had half his points! So on that crucial charge my DK did on a unit of Carnifexes I could have rolled 8 dice giving me 4 success (I need 2, assuming activation is a Warp Charge 1). The Hive Tyrant could have dispelled at +1 (on 5's) with 6 dice, averaging 2 Deny. Boom, my FW works. Instead, Yesterday, I had to make a Ld test at -3 (so on a 6), which had only 40% chance of success (for that matter, it worked and I killed the 3 carnifexes on the charge for the best "First Blood" ever! Later in the game the Hive Tyrant charge a depleted GKSS unit and killed 4 out of 5 models. The last GK, equipped with a Force Sword hit.... wounded on a 6 and boom made a Ld test on a 5 killing the HT!).

 

Now, the downside: the new method makes it much more possible to have a Peril of the Warp that could be very bad for my DK.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So you get warp charges based on how many psykers you have? Nice. That makes our squads even more tasty as Allies, as we bring not only daemon killing power but also more psychic power for Allied forces. 

 

Any word on combat squads? Because technically we could double our warp charges just by doing that at deployment. 

[boreas]

Ouch... Didn't think about that one. I guess so! Of course, I find that combat-squadded PAGK are too fragile for my taste, but if I'd come across a psyker heavy list, that's a great option!

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup, 1 WC dice per PML psyker you have in your army.

 

I've no reason to think that Combat Squadded BoP units wouldn't generate 2 WC dice per phase.

 

Solodins are equal in cost to PML1 Inquisitors for WC generation. ;)

[number6]

1d6 + 30.

For 30 Paladin taking as solodins in an unbound list.

The stupid! It hurts!

[boreas]

Now, would a termi unit with Thawn generate 3 WC? I hope they clarify that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope. BoP (unloess changed) would still hold.

 

Thawn would only generate 2WC when he became an individual unit.

[boreas]

Haha, I won't agree with that (we've beat this horse pretty badly before!). But I do hope 7th makes it clear that I was right all along ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Another thing to consider for BoP is ICs...

 

ICs (currently) join a unit *for all intents and purposes*.

 

BoP makes the *unit* a PML1 Psyker.

 

So how many Charges do you generate if a PML3 Psyker joins a BoP unit?

[jeffersonian000]

Another thing to consider for BoP is ICs...

 

ICs (currently) join a unit *for all intents and purposes*.

 

BoP makes the *unit* a PML1 Psyker.

 

So how many Charges do you generate if a PML3 Psyker joins a BoP unit?

4, because ICs have their own rules for interacting with BoP units.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Where's that Jeff?

 

Neither the BoP rule (it only mentions the inabilty to use an ICs Ld value...), not the IC rules, have any special interaction mentioned.

 

At best, you could claim that there's a rule conflict.

 

The IC rules state that units special rules don't confer to the IC.  The IC rules state the IC becomes a member of the unit for all intents and purposes.

 

Is generating Warp Charge points part of the 'intents and purposes' of the unit?

 

Ah, good ol' rule conflicts.

 

I bet 7th doesn't resolve any of the stuff like this.

[jeffersonian000]

BRB, pg. 39, Independent Character, under Special Rules:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself ... , the unit's rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the a Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

 

An IC with PML in a unit with BoP is not effected by BoP. The only time this is not the case is when following Nemesis Force Weapon activation, as if both the IC and BoP unit have NFWs, the NFW confers its rules on to the models which does include verbiage noting ICs can activate on the same trigger, even though they have to roll seperately.

 

As such, a PML3 IC attached to a BoP unit would net 4 Warp Charges between them.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

The IC rules state that units special rules don't confer to the IC. The IC rules state the IC becomes a member of the unit for all intents and purposes.

Advanced - Advanced rule conflict.

(It's also "for all rules purposes....")

[jeffersonian000]

There is no rules conflict. When an IC joins a unit, they count as being a member of that unit for Movement, Shooting, and Assault, for embarking and disembarking, for Precise Shots and Look Out, Sir!, for wound allocation, break tests, average toughness, etc. However, when it comes to the specific exceptions listed under the USR "Independent Character", we follow the more specific rules that tell us how an IC is different. Since Brotherhood of Psykers does not specifically tell us that its rules apply to an IC joining the unit, but the IC rule do tell us that ICs aren't BoPs unless they have the BoP rule already, we know that in the case of being a Psyker, a PML IC does not follow the rules for BoP even if joined to a BoP unit.

 

Confusion does come up with characters like Mordrak and Thawn, both of which have their own PML yet both are not ICs while still being members of BoP units. We still don't really know how a BoP unit works with a non-BoP member that is not an IC. A good assumption is to just follow the rules as written, as most of the time BoP only matters for NFW activation and Perils allocation. Personally, I like to use Mordrak's Warp Charge at the start of the turn, since he doesn't need it for his Hammer, and I'm firmly in the school that Hammerhad does not stack. Thawn, on the other hand, has 2 Warp Charges, has BoP, and is a non-IC in a BoP unit. BoP makes the entire unit a PML1 Psyker, despite Thawn's personal PML2. Since Thawn does not have any additional powers than his unit (unlike Mordrak), yet does have BoP, it can be argued that Thawn counts as BoP until such time as he is on his own. Or, it can be argued, that with the 'Nid codex presidence set, Thawn's unit is a PML2 BoP unit as long as Thawn is a member.

 

So, yes, a PML3 IC joined to a BoP unit would net you 4 Warp Charges, unless that BoP unit has Thawn, which means it might net you 5 Warp Charges. Or maybe just 4.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

There is no rules conflict. When an IC joins a unit, they count as being a member of that unit for Movement, Shooting, and Assault, for embarking and disembarking, for Precise Shots and Look Out, Sir!, for wound allocation, break tests, average toughness, etc. However, when it comes to the specific exceptions listed under the USR "Independent Character", we follow the more specific rules that tell us how an IC is different. Since Brotherhood of Psykers does not specifically tell us that its rules apply to an IC joining the unit, but the IC rule do tell us that ICs aren't BoPs unless they have the BoP rule already, we know that in the case of being a Psyker, a PML IC does not follow the rules for BoP even if joined to a BoP unit.

That's not (Edit for clarity) part of the unit for *all rules purposes* though.

Hopefully the inadiquate IC rules will be tightened up in 7th.

But then the robustness of 6th edition was terrible. It woud be hard to release a more lax ruleset.

[jeffersonian000]

"For all rule purposes" is a general statement. "Does not confer special rules" is a more specific statement. Specific trumps general.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Not in this edition it doesn't.

 

It used to.

 

But now it's only Codex - Advanced - Basic.

 

Nothing at all to do with specific or general.  Those terms aren't even mentioned in the BRB.

 

Sadly.

[IndigoJack]

According to the GW video yesterday, you get one dice per mastery level in your army. So that's 1 dice for ML1, 1 dice for ML2, so on... So the largest amount of dice GKs can produce from mastery levels are 6 (1 for ML3 libby, 1 for coteaz, 1 for just about everything else). So GKs are looking at a healthy d6+6 dice. Spamming low ML units are not going to get you more dice, and this probalby doesn't bode well for us coming out on top this edition.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why would ML2 only give one dice?

[number6]

I really do have 30-odd GK terminators. No reason I can't play Unbound and run them all as solo Padladins. So, wouldn't that mean I'd get d6 + 30-odd dice?

And seeing as I am allowed to Forge The Narrative, I see nothing stopping me from sacrificing a "solodin" or 20 to summon a horde of daemons and assorted greater daemons.

It's how the Grey Knights roll in my universe. And there's nothing you can do about it.