If it's true...

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, I could refuse to play you. ;)

[DinoDoc]

[boreas]

I'm flabbergasted by the "exploit" mentality that runs rempant. I'm my opinion, it's not because you CAN do something that you SHOULD do something. Are your average opponents such "insert negative comment" people that this will spiral off? I've always felt that lack of self-control was a sign of immaturity. Yet, WH40k is a complex enough game that most players should show some degree of self-restraint, no? GL and Number6, you're veterans of the game (heck, I learned playing my SoB and GKs reading Number6's posts over 10 years ago!).

 

Oh well, I feel like I've posted this a few times already, so I'll show some self-control and stop ;)

[number6]

@boreas: Don't think of the players that exploit the rules negatively. I don't.

1. If there's this much universal disapproval of the RAW ... then the game is simply broken and should be accepted as such. No blame can reasonably be attached to players who are simply playing the game as designed.

2. If there's this much universal disapproval of the RAW ... then the creators of the game are to blame. Period. The buck stops there.

3. If players everywhere are like the ones in my local meta, they don't honestly consider themselves to be "abusive" or "WAAC". To them, the fun of 40K is letting them put their biggest, baddest, kewlest toys out on the tabletop every chance they get. They take their hobby very seriously, and absolutely LOVE 40K. To them, that means being allowed to use the models they've spent a lot of coin on, and a lot of effort building/painting/converting whenever they want. These are the players that have always hated how folks with less money refuse them their ForgeWorld expansions in games.

The dynamic I'm describing puts the lie to GW's claim that "the hobby" is primarily about collecting. If that was true, then folks would just buy the models they liked most, paint them up, and enjoy it like that. (Akin to people who build model car/plane/ship/military kits, for example). But clearly, Kewl Factor only plays a part of why folks buy up kits. They also desperately want to play with them.

Well, now GW has finally created a rules set so permissive that literally everything they and ForgeWorld make can be put into a game of any size.

This is reality. As you can tell, I definitely don't like this reality. Firstly, as I've said, I simply don't have the deep pockets to compete. But secondly, it means there is literally no point to studying how to play the game intelligently. There's no point in me trying to help people build strong army lists and learn to play them well. (And thanks for remembering me from so long ago! ) The game has now been blown so far apart that it is literally impossible to build an army list that can compete in a random pick-up game or matchup in a tournament. So, there's really no point.

And that is another pleasure -- perhaps the main pleasure -- I got out of 40K over the years. Taking low-rated armies like Codex: Daemonhunters and figuring out how to make them relevant. Well, GW has taken that away from me as well.

So what's left for players like me? I don't have a community that likes what I like in the game. And the game itself is more about money than about attention to detail, appreciation of the fluff background, and a mentally challenging back-and-forth between you and a sporting opponent.

Credit where credit is due: the 40K universe is far and away the most interesting made-up place in which to game. And GW has far and away the highest quality and most aesthetically pleasing models of anybody. (I know, subjective, but I think this is true for all of us who are here on the B&C, right? )

But cool models and background isn't quite enough to pry me of my hard-earned money, of the limited funds I have available for larks like gaming. Like those players in my local area, I want to play games with my cool models in the cool made-up grim darkness of the far future. Unfortunately ... there really isn't a game there anymore. No game ... no me.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh. Em. Gee.

 

That entire post.

 

Seriously.  Nothing really more needs to be said.

 

I could go on to explain the 40k *isn't* a 'narrative' game, and can never be.

 

But a 'narrative' should be exactly like painted minis.  Nothing to do with the rules, but a tool to help enrich your game.  And that's how GW should push it.

 

But there's no need.  The post above is pure gold. :)

[boreas]

Well, I guess I'm lucky to have my gaming group :) We strive for balanced/all around hobbiying that rests as much on the painting and the fun gaming. We like to be competitive, but will not go overboard. We'll make "that" assault every once in a while, even if it's not optimal strategy, because there's a cool factor. We'll fool around with fun lists, but won't make a 60 jokaero list, etc... In that context, 7th edition seems like the best thing since sliced bread ;)

 

But I understand your position. Yet, I find the exagerations (ie a 7 DK list, a 30 solodin list, etc) very caricatural. I still hope you can find a way to use 7th ed. in a positive way, even including Unbound lists.

[number6]

But I understand your position. Yet, I find the exagerations (ie a 7 DK list, a 30 solodin list, etc) very caricatural. I still hope you can find a way to use 7th ed. in a positive way, even including Unbound lists.

Heh. If only! As soon as White Dwarf reported on Unbound, one of the regular Tau players -- who already owned 3 Riptides -- ordered 3 more, specially crowing about how excited he was to be able to use them in non-Apoc games. He'll have them ready to go by 24 May.

That's what it's like here. (shrug) Nothing to be done about it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Way back in 4th, we self comp'd heavily when we started.

Space Marines can bring how many Lascannons? We can't compete with that. Don't bring that many.

Dark Reapers shoot how many AP3 shots? Don't use them.

etc, etc.

In the end, it didn't help. And limiting stuff like this lead to people not using units they wanted to, felt bad when they did. And just shifted the problems to other units.

Then you had such top heavy things like the original Daemons Codex.

I loled facing them. The Marines players refused to play. There was *nothing* they could do to stop 'letters agressively DSing next to them (with icon for later rounds) and wiping them out in droves in CC due to Power Weapons.

So our Daemon Player stopped playing. (edit, ment to add, not only did he not have other troop minis to swap to, but *why* would you? The other troop choices were *so* bad in that dex, it would be like throwing the game away to use them. Which was no fun for him...)

None of it was ever 'healthy', until we decided, screw it. Just bring whatever you want, we'll play, and not accuse anyone due to what they bring.

And the game became a lot more fun.

Self comp'ing is bad. And just doesn't work.

[Valerian]

But I understand your position. Yet, I find the exagerations (ie a 7 DK list, a 30 solodin list, etc) very caricatural. I still hope you can find a way to use 7th ed. in a positive way, even including Unbound lists.

Heh. If only! As soon as White Dwarf reported on Unbound, one of the regular Tau players -- who already owned 3 Riptides -- ordered 3 more, specially crowing about how excited he was to be able to use them in non-Apoc games. He'll have them ready to go by 24 May.

That's what it's like here. (shrug) Nothing to be done about it.

Where are you? Gangnam?

[Gentlemanloser]

Another example (if you guys don't mind. :) ).

 

When the new Deldar hit, one of our guys developed a devastating CC orientated WWP build.

 

It was harsh.  Two Raider to start, two Hemos with WWP.  If you didn't take both out in the first turn (or he went first) the skimmer would move to the centre of the board, the hemo would get out and drop the WWP.

 

From there, the speed of the Deldar made them able to come on from reserves, stream out of the WWP and dominate everyone else due to thier CC prowess.

 

Then I bought along Coteaz.

 

After wiping out nearly his entire army as they came on through his WWP (Coteaz + 10 Paladin.  They've been expecting you...) and making the game a non event (Sure, he could have not used the WWP, but then he's foot slogging from his board edge, and that's pew pew death.), what should we have done?

 

Me never used Coteaz again, so he could play his army how he wanted?  That would just lead to us losing every game from being overwhelmed in CC.  Him not using WWPs?  He didn't like Raiders, and loved CC Deldar over Blaster Deldar?  Or should we have both toned down our lists?

 

Should I drop Coteaz and never use one of the best HQs in our dex again?  Should he have dropped his Beast Packs, Talos', Wych's and Incubi so we stood a chance in CC?

 

Where does the self comping stop?

[boreas]

Nope, of course not! But you could bring some variety. Let's say you put your minies in your army case, you bring 3-4 army lists and go to wherever you play (personnally, my best friend's basement has tables and shelves for all our gaming group's armies!). Now, he plays his WWP list, you have a Coteaz list. Harsh, he has to try and run around that. Nice. Now, game 2, use another list (heck, pick randomly in the 2-3 other lists) and so does he. Rinse repeat.

 

I could bring a triple DK list whenever I play against my friend's nids (ok, no, I own only 2 DK!). But even when I know I'll play against nids, I bring  one DK. I'll try purifyers. Paladins. Henchmen. Different assassins. Sometimes, my list is way better than his, sometimes, it's the reverse. Yet, most games are a challenge for both players (the one with the best list tries to clear the table, the other player tries to scrape by using objectives). No matter what happens, it's way better than playing the exact same list for lack of options (like Codex:Daemonhunters!).

 

Of course, some idiot could bring a list of 4 riptides and 3 DKs (as bodyguards). Might even be fun, one time. But if a player feels enough need to win to push into absurdity each and every game, he'll probably cheat at monopoly anyways .

[Gentlemanloser]

I only own 2 as well

I've proxied a third using my Ravens Flying base and Stand though...

(End of the day, none of us - the guys I game with - like to win because the other player has purposely brought a 'weak' list. Feels like we were kinda cheated, if that makes sense. So we try to bring potent lists, and we vary them to try new things and not get bored. And to counter what our opponent tried! But on game nights we don't swap lists between games. We each play the same list everyone else has faced.)

[number6]

It also takes a rather huge amount of time and money -- not to mention genuine interest -- to have enough variety in even a single army to be able to "mix it up" as well as you describe, boreas.

In the end, 40K has always been a game of resource management. REAL WORLD resource management!

"How much am I willing to spend?"

"How much time do I have to build/paint what I buy?"

"How much time do I have to actually play games?"

The more limited any of those resources are for you:

* the more carefully you'll choose your units

* the more rigid ("generalist" or "all-comers") your army list must become

* the more you're going to insist that you be able to play with the stuff you do buy.

And on top of that: What if you genuinely just don't have an interest in anything but assaulty armies? Or Tyranids specifically? Or the Ultramarines 1st company? Or <name your limited army niche interest here>? In which case, what're ya gonna do? Force these people to diversify their purchases just to suit your preferences?

Some players around me (near-ish to Chicago, for the record) have effectively unlimited money and can find time to devote painting at home, but very little time for gaming. They always want to play with anything and everything they can.

Others have very few limits on any of their resources (they're young, unattached, in good-paying jobs) so they can do whatever they want ... and see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do whatever they want as a result. (E.g., the aforementioned Tau player.) They play often enough that they're willng to mix it up. A lot. And they do. But they've always got the sexiest new unit or combo that just hit the game rules to try out. So they're always power-playing, even though they don't see it that way.

This easily describes 80% -- or more -- of the player base in my area.

I'm an outlier in this meta. I have a significant limit on my financial ability, and sometimes my time to devote to paint and model, but can almost always get 2-5 games in every month if I'm willing to just show up at the FLGS.

You just can't make all of these people happy in 40K. Somebody's always gonna be left out. The great balancing factor up to this point has always been, "Well, these are the rules. So there's only so much cheese you can pull off in a given game." Wise purchases, tuned army lists, and intelligent play was worth something on the tabletop.

Not any more.

[boreas]

I feel for you :(  I'ts an obvious ploy to sell more models, that's for sure. I can see how players that can't (or won't for a various lot of good reasons!) buy a very diverse range of minis will suffer from a more competitive mindset. But really, if a players really use unbound to add a 4th DK, or play a purifier list without Crowe, I really understand. Heck, even the once in a blue moon deamon-summoning GKs or an "for-old-time-sake-half-eldar-librarian" build a regular Ultramarine-Eldar list. But I'd have trouble playing against a player that would forgo any semblance of normality in order to curb-stomp another player.

[Gentlemanloser]

One of my best mates loves his Tac squads.  Throw in a few Preds and a couple of Termies or two.

 

But for him, it's all about the Tac Squad.

 

He doesn't win many games and is quite jaded with 40k.

 

But he *won't* 'optimise', no matter what suggestions the other players give him.

 

Really, there's not much else we can do. :(

[DinoDoc]

Is he opposed to a Drop Pod Assault army list?

[Gentlemanloser]

Only has two Drop Pods.

 

I've lent him mine, I got one excited we might get them in our new codex.

 

No such luck. ;)

 

(Drop Pods don't fair too well versus me, he's not a big believer in them!)

[Quozzo]

Tell him to take 6 sternguard instead of tacs. Vengeance rounds will do some damage to both sides xD

[DinoDoc]

 

(Drop Pods don't fair too well versus me, he's not a big believer in them!)

Are you expecting them?

[Gentlemanloser]

/chortle

 

Indeed. ;) 

 

Plus Warp Quake.

[boreas]

Okay, so your buddy has problems with tac squads and you offer him drop-pods while playing Coteaz and Strikers? Tsk tsk evil, evil GL

[Gentlemanloser]

:D

 

He sometimes uses them.

 

Just drops them over 12" away from me.  Which usually keeps me out of Rapid Fire range. ;)

 

Of course, then I move up and unload Prescience Storm Bolter / Psycannons into him.

 

Did I also mention he doesn't like Psychics and have never taken a Librarian?  The new Phsycic Phase is going to hit him like a brick! lol ;)

[boreas]

Well, I can't seem to link it, but we don't have access to demonic powers (or course), but we're the only army that can cast Sanctic power without having a Peril on ANY double (perils on double 1 and 6 still apply)! If that table rocks, we'll have yet another boost :)

[DinoDoc]

Well, I can't seem to link it, but we don't have access to demonic powers (or course), but we're the only army that can cast Sanctic power without having a Peril on ANY double (perils on double 1 and 6 still apply)! If that table rocks, we'll have yet another boost

1) Where'd ya here that? The only race I knew of that was barred from Malefic Daemonology were the Tyranids.

2) I hope you are correct on both counts.

[boreas]

Valerian managed to post the link on the "GK and 7th" thread.

 

So, the power is "deamonology". Everyone except Nids can have it.

 

The Malefic side can be used by everyone except units from Codex GK (so yes, =I= from codex Inquisition can!). Every double on the rolls is a PotW, except for Daemons.

 

The Sanctic side can be used by everyone except deamons. Every double is a PotW, except for psykers from codex: GK.

 

Pretty neat, hoping that Santics are just as powerfull as Malefics!