Russ is on Terra?

[Tenebris]

Ascribing some sort of intellectual faculties to the Space Wolves, to Russ? Really?

 

All I can say is that they are pelt wearing, mead drinking space barbarians, let them die on the blades of the Alpha Legion I say, no one will miss a few thousand Space Wolves. I think it might even tear the gaze of Magnus for a second or two from his books. 

 

In the end let the doggy play executioner, it seems the only thing he credits himself and his runts to be.

 

Proper Prosperine rant aside, so far in all the novels concerning the Space Wolves this "executioner" role is really overshadowing everything concerning with Russ and his sons and is doing them a great disservice. It is sidelining them in a mentality not theirs, in a role only loosely fitting to the Space Wolves...

 

But hey, all in all who am I to lament the poor writing of the Space Wolves, I read twice every legionary death of the VIth legion with great gusto. Let the dogs die I repeat, they wish to be wolves, but they are mere puppies with only milk teeth to bare. They deserve everything coming after them after their barbarity and betrayal of a brother legion on Prospero.  

[Night Runner]

 

A. The White Scars gave a fairly good accounting of themselves at Terra. The Wolves are less suited to defense than biker Mongols who emphasize mobility and fluidity above all? Of course, Khan has never given himself a fancy title and thought it was his appointed place to dictate to his brothers. Which is probably why he worked with Dorn instead of going off on some fool crusade.

 

The White Scars aren't at Terra yet. We're still years from the Battle of Terra. If the Khan was in Russ's position at this point in the story, would he be content to sit around waiting for Horus to show up? Doubt it.

 

>B. Whether or not Russ can punch Horus's face off one on one has no bearing on the wisdom of him throwing his Legion at another Legion that outnumbered them even before they were ground up by Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion, and has the Death Guard backing them up.

 and is far more interesting

There's nothing in Vengeful Spirit to suggest he intends to "throw" his Legion at anyone. Maybe his plan is a little more subtle than that?

 

 

Ah, Loken, you’ve a lot to learn about how clever the Rout really are.

 

I agree completely Lucien.  Most of what is being said is mostly conjecture, assumption and speculation.   What we do know at this point is Russ is not patient enough to sit and wait.  From a narrative perspective, I find waiting boring.  I'd rather see him make his plans and take the war to the enemy.  It seems to fit the character of Leman better and is far more interesting.  The 'logical' path, which many seem to endorse is rather stale for a story.  There is already one legion doing that, and for narrative purpose that seems enough.

 

Personally, I want to see what went wrong with the Space Wolf plans, and how Horus turned the scales around and kept Leman from returning to Terra - a regret that Russ would always carry with him.  For a Primarch rekown for his cunning, it seems he was outwitted by Horus.  I want to see how this defeat and humiliation effects Russ and how he manages to rally from it.  These are the stories I want to read, and not of Leman waiting behind a wall and arguing with Dorn half the time.

[Tenebris]

Well lets just say that the Imperium had only one legion of wolves and those were the Luna Wolves. There, I have said it. 

[Vesper]

Well lets just say that the Imperium had only one legion of wolves and those were the Luna Wolves. There, I have said it. 

Hey, that's my theory ! I said that the SW named themselves that way because they are LW wannabes !

 

On a more serious note :

 

 

Personally, I want to see what went wrong with the Space Wolf plans, and how Horus turned the scales around and kept Leman from returning to Terra - a regret that Russ would always carry with him.  For a Primarch rekown for his cunning, it seems he was outwitted by Horus.  I want to see how this defeat and humiliation effects Russ and how he manages to rally from it.  These are the stories I want to read, and not of Leman waiting behind a wall and arguing with Dorn half the time.

Yeah, I mostly agree with you. That's the reason I suppose we're going to get to Yarant. And it would indeed be quite interesting.

[Kais Klip]

There's nothing in Vengeful Spirit to suggest he intends to "throw" his Legion at anyone. Maybe his plan is a little more subtle than that?

Given the "subtlety" we've seen on display the only other times Russ has engaged other Primarchs (Night of the Wolf and Prospero) I feel it is not unreasonable to assume that his plan for dealing with Horus has more in common with "LEMAN SMASH!" than "What we do is, when our fleet enters the system, we hail the Vengeful Spirit, and I tell him I'm Alpharius disguised as Leman Russ, because reasons. Then when he drops his guard..."

Or, he does what is clearly a demonstrated metaphor in Vengeful Spirit, and changes the layout of the board so that Horus comes to him. Because Horus totally doesn't have any sort of preference towards taking the fight towards the enemy's leadership. Oh, and guess who has awesome new chaos boons that need testing out to persuade him the idea is a good one. And guess who will get a gift from a fickle foe to cancel those boons out.

[Night Runner]

Well lets just say that the Imperium had only one legion of wolves and those were the Luna Wolves. There, I have said it.

Hey, that's my theory ! I said that the SW named themselves that way because they are LW wannabes !

On a more serious note :

>

Personally, I want to see what went wrong with the Space Wolf plans, and how Horus turned the scales around and kept Leman from returning to Terra - a regret that Russ would always carry with him. For a Primarch rekown for his cunning, it seems he was outwitted by Horus. I want to see how this defeat and humiliation effects Russ and how he manages to rally from it. These are the stories I want to read, and not of Leman waiting behind a wall and arguing with Dorn half the time.

Yeah, I mostly agree with you. That's the reason I suppose we're going to get to Yarant. And it would indeed be quite interesting.

Actually it was the other legions that named them SW, they call themselves by a different name altogether. But I kind of like the title LW wannabee, it gives them somethig to aspire to . Vesper, I am glad we agree on the second part though.

[Leif Bearclaw]

To be fair Night Runner, the 'logical' path that I'd advocate is not having Russ turn up on Terra in the first place. Leave him slowed and fighting bush wars his morality and honour won't let him refuse.

 

I know that now the Heresy is meant to have lasted something like 7 years, does anyone know if it had a time-scale before it got so massively fleshed out? Part of the problem here may trying to fill the 7 years of Heresy. Previously, there were only 3/4 really important set pieces of the Heresy that set up the status quo for 40k, Istvaan, Prospero, Terra and Caliban, whereas now we need 7 years 'worth' of stories for 18 Legions, so they're going to flail around a bit unfortunately.

 

On a slight tangent, apologies for probably treading over old ground, but could someone explain to a relative B&C newbie why there's such vitriol directed towards the 30k Wolves?

 

I get that the executioner thing carries a certain 'special snowflake' stigma, and I'm rather biased, but really it didn't come across in PB as any worse than any other Legion. Every Legion thinks they're great, why should the Wolves be any different? We don't see vitriol directed at the SoH/EC for example, both of which are Legions that thought they were the bees knees.

 

Personally I found the Wolves portrayal in ATS/PB really interesting, both the darker character contrasting with the more humanitarian 40k Wolves, and because it explained one of my biggest bugbears with the old, sparse Heresy fluff, namely why Russ was sent to Prospero. Previously sending Russ didn't make sense, why send a Primarch with an axe to grind to retrieve Magnus? We now have the answers, Russ was sent because his was the Legion that was both reliable and would not hesitate to combat other Astartes (remember how anathema such a concept was in Horus Rising?), then Horus changed the orders from arrest to terminate. Excellent, plot hole closed. On top of that given the particular potency of the Wolves gene-seed, plus its Chaos-resistant traits (see 13th Company), it makes a certain amount of sense that this Legion was intended for such a purpose.

 

What I really don't get though, is this sort of thing, as Tenebris said earlier in this thread:

"In the end let the doggy play executioner, it seems the only thing he credits himself and his runts to be."

 

Where did this idea that Russ and his Legion are delusional, self-appointed executioners come from? As far as I'm aware, the executioner title has been used in the novels by characters that aren't Wolves, such as Malcador. Combined with the FW snippets like their involvement in [redacted] incidents and the whole 'Trefoil Legions' thing, it looks like the Wolves were considered to have a specific purpose by the Emperor/Crusade command, and there's no evidence (that I'm aware of) that counters the idea of executioners, carrying out the will/judgement of the Emperor/those who speak in his name.

[Kol Saresk]

Vlka Fenryka. "Wolves of Fenris". Tag "space" and BAM! You get Space Wolves.

[Vesper]

Men of good will, let's just all agree on not making this thread the 7786574278675th to turn into executioner talk.

[Night Runner]

To be fair Night Runner, the 'logical' path that I'd advocate is not having Russ turn up on Terra in the first place. Leave him slowed and fighting bush wars his morality and honour won't let him refuse.

 

I know that now the Heresy is meant to have lasted something like 7 years, does anyone know if it had a time-scale before it got so massively fleshed out? Part of the problem here may trying to fill the 7 years of Heresy. Previously, there were only 3/4 really important set pieces of the Heresy that set up the status quo for 40k, Istvaan, Prospero, Terra and Caliban, whereas now we need 7 years 'worth' of stories for 18 Legions, so they're going to flail around a bit unfortunately.

 

On a slight tangent, apologies for probably treading over old ground, but could someone explain to a relative B&C newbie why there's such vitriol directed towards the 30k Wolves?

 

I get that the executioner thing carries a certain 'special snowflake' stigma, and I'm rather biased, but really it didn't come across in PB as any worse than any other Legion. Every Legion thinks they're great, why should the Wolves be any different? We don't see vitriol directed at the SoH/EC for example, both of which are Legions that thought they were the bees knees.

 

Personally I found the Wolves portrayal in ATS/PB really interesting, both the darker character contrasting with the more humanitarian 40k Wolves, and because it explained one of my biggest bugbears with the old, sparse Heresy fluff, namely why Russ was sent to Prospero. Previously sending Russ didn't make sense, why send a Primarch with an axe to grind to retrieve Magnus? We now have the answers, Russ was sent because his was the Legion that was both reliable and would not hesitate to combat other Astartes (remember how anathema such a concept was in Horus Rising?), then Horus changed the orders from arrest to terminate. Excellent, plot hole closed. On top of that given the particular potency of the Wolves gene-seed, plus its Chaos-resistant traits (see 13th Company), it makes a certain amount of sense that this Legion was intended for such a purpose.

 

What I really don't get though, is this sort of thing, as Tenebris said earlier in this thread:

"In the end let the doggy play executioner, it seems the only thing he credits himself and his runts to be."

 

Where did this idea that Russ and his Legion are delusional, self-appointed executioners come from? As far as I'm aware, the executioner title has been used in the novels by characters that aren't Wolves, such as Malcador. Combined with the FW snippets like their involvement in [redacted] incidents and the whole 'Trefoil Legions' thing, it looks like the Wolves were considered to have a specific purpose by the Emperor/Crusade command, and there's no evidence (that I'm aware of) that counters the idea of executioners, carrying out the will/judgement of the Emperor/those who speak in his name.

Great points, especially the filling in of the 7 year period.  I agree there.

 

As for the vitriol towards the 30K SW, persoally it is just people taking the fluff too seriously and coming out childish for it.  If they can't take it for what it is, just ignore their remarks and answer those that are worth your time.  Don't get me wrong, a friendly jab here and there is fine and keeps the atmosphere lively - I also enjoy it.

 

Personally I enjoy all the fluff of all the first founding legions - and the Space Wolves in particular because I have always played SW and been a fan. The fact that our legion's perspective has changed over the 10000 year period adds depth to their history - and the  fact that they have made serious mistakes and suffered for them makes them even more interesting from a narrative point of view  imo.

[depthcharge12]

Now I hate to sound like I'm defending the Space Wolf fluff, but here's how I can draw a parallel.

 

 

Maybe Russ (being a Viking werewolf in sphess) has the Beowulf mentality that he still has one good fight still left in him before the crap hits the fan, and goes and picks out the biggest, meanest baddy he can find to slay and die gloriously. He doesn't want to die next to the hearth with his back up against the wall, but rather do the most damage he can before kicking the bucket. It might not make the most tactical sense or be the best help, but Russ isn't one for that generally.

 

Though I will also try and avoid the Christian allegorical references to Beowulf too as Russ promises to come back after disappearing into legend.

 

 

That's it Space Wolf fans. That's all you get in defense. Everybody gets one.

[Sanct]

I like the idea that the Wolves were originally the executors of the Emp; carrying out his will even when it was a less destructive task. (like the Night of the Wolf in Betrayer)  Buuuut the other Legions misheard (deliberately?) and used the bloodless side aspect of those tasks to mock them by calling them executioners. 

[Barn]

It's also worth noting that individual authors dont have a say in the overall direction the story takes.

[Wade Garrett]

I like the idea that the Wolves were originally the executors of the Emp; carrying out his will even when it was a less destructive task. (like the Night of the Wolf in Betrayer)

*Looks at the giant piles of bodies in grey and white power armor strewn all over Ghenna*

 

Le-le-LESS DESTRUCTIVE?!? Less destructive than what, Isstvan V?

 

No, if you want to see how a Primarch who lacks a hair trigger temper handles a sanction like that, you want Roboute Guilliman at Monarchia, not the Primarch who was the first one to pull a weapon and swing while arguing with ANGRON.

 

Let me repeat that. Angron was the cooler headed party during NoW. ANGRON.

[b1soul]

The White Scars gave a fairly good accounting of themselves at Terra.

 

I'd say they gave a very good accounting of themselves, retaking the space ports and all

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

I like the idea that the Wolves were originally the executors of the Emp; carrying out his will even when it was a less destructive task. (like the Night of the Wolf in Betrayer)

*Looks at the giant piles of bodies in grey and white power armor strewn all over Ghenna*

 

Le-le-LESS DESTRUCTIVE?!? Less destructive than what, Isstvan V?

 

No, if you want to see how a Primarch who lacks a hair trigger temper handles a sanction like that, you want Roboute Guilliman at Monarchia, not the Primarch who was the first one to pull a weapon and swing while arguing with ANGRON.

 

Let me repeat that. Angron was the cooler headed party during NoW. ANGRON.

There is another perspective however (and to be clear, I am not pushing it as the 'truth'), and that is that Russ did keep a cool head. If being told the truth was having no effect, then the alternative is to be shown the truth. This, ultimately, had even less effect. But, that wouldn't invalidate the possibility that Russ was thinking clearly at the time, just as being wrong doesn't necessarily mean that there was not any valid thought behind it.

 

Whether this is the case or not, I doubt we will ever know. All we see is Angron's view, and Lorgar's observation.

[b1soul]

On a somewhat related note, I've argued with SW fans who claim Russ allows Angron to beat him down in front of his puppies...

 

If anyone supports that argument, I'll gladly point out why I find it incredibly silly

[Conn Eremon]

On a somewhat related note, I've argued with SW fans who claim Russ allows Angron to beat him down in front of his puppies...

 

If anyone supports that argument, I'll gladly point out why I find it incredibly silly

The idea of Russ deliberately throwing the fight is silly. But it was kind of obvious that Russ was fighting to prove a point, not to kill Angron. Angron, on the other hand, was fighting to kill. So while Russ definitely didn't lose on purpose, he was definitely going to lose (and no, not because of the idiotic 'Angron always win because he best fighter' logic that tends to be thrown about without thought) because of that.

[Scribe]

Its not obvious in the least. The only thing obvious is that Russ was goaded into a fight he had no sanction to carry to its ultimate conclusion.

[b1soul]

Cormac Airt, on 16 May 2014 - 11:14, said:

But it was kind of obvious that Russ was fighting to prove a point, not to kill Angron. Angron, on the other hand, was fighting to kill.

Funny as Angron didn't kill Russ. What Angron did was beat Russ into the ground and prove his superiority (in his mind)

 

When did Angron try to kill Russ? You'd think Angron would've made a move to finish Russ as Russ was crawling away from him on all fours. Instead, Angron let Russ crawl away

 

I could just as easily argue that Angron was fighting to prove his superiority by giving Russ a brutal beating. If Angron were fighting to kill (i.e. if Angron were in berserker mode), he would've killed Russ as he crawled away...and I doubt the onlooking Space Wolves would've been able to kill Angron quickly enough to prevent it

 

After losing their primarch to a berserk finishing blow, the Wolves would've opened fire on Angron and probably would've brought Angron down eventually with combined firepower...since as we know, Angron is one tough dude, even for a primarch.

 

Sorry...but I've encountered your argument before and I'm not sold on it. Russ was in a more enraged state than Angron. I don't see how Russ would've been holding back more than Angron.

[Kol Saresk]

Angron stopped because he realized Russ wasn't putting that much effort. And that's when Russ did his "I might lose but I'm better than you" speech. Angron proved the hypocrisy of the Imperium and all of its supporters, Russ proved that Angron broke his own Legion. As far as I'm concerned, they both lost that day. Still, its sad when Angron of all people have the moral high ground. You have to be pretty low for that to happen. Like Curze low.

[Scribe]

Angron stopped because he realized Russ wasn't putting that much effort. And that's when Russ did his "I might lose but I'm better than you" speech. Angron proved the hypocrisy of the Imperium and all of its supporters, Russ proved that Angron broke his own Legion. As far as I'm concerned, they both lost that day. Still, its sad when Angron of all people have the moral high ground. You have to be pretty low for that to happen. Like Curze low.

 

Nah, like Emperor low. Curze died for his beliefs!

[Conn Eremon]

The idea that Russ might not have been goaded was in a different post entirely, where I said the exact opposite of obvious . . .

 

What I said was obvious was that Russ was trying to prove a lesson. That was obvious, whether goaded into the fight or not. Angron, on the other hand, sees any fight as a fight to the death.

 

Meaning Russ, whether intentional or not, goaded or not, had set himself up to lose. My personal opinion is goaded and unintentional. But I do recognize that this is my opinion of something that is left vague enough for either potential to be right.

[b1soul]

Angron stopped because he realized Russ wasn't putting that much effort.

 

That's circular reasoning. There's no evidence that an enraged Russ was not putting in that much effort. 

 

Also, if Angron stopped because he realised Russ wasn't trying...that shows Angron wasn't in berserk killer rage mode

 

Think about it. Russ had very good incentive to win the duel. Not only for personal honour, but he could've made his point just as powerfully (if not more powerfully) had he won the duel. 

 

If he had won the duel, he could've pointed out to a humbled, possibly incapacitated Angron...

 

1. You're totally screwed because none of your men are here to save you. Not only have you been laid low by an enemy primarch, but the sons of that primarch are all here with their guns aimed at you

2. Even had I lost this duel, at least my men are here to minimise your chances of survival  

 

On top of that, not going hard against an opponent as dangerous as Angron is completely stupid

 

 

 Angron, on the other hand, sees any fight as a fight to the death.

 

Obviously not as Angron passed up an easy opportunity to kill a beaten, crawling Russ

[Conn Eremon]

Angron stopped because he realized Russ wasn't putting that much effort. And that's when Russ did his "I might lose but I'm better than you" speech. Angron proved the hypocrisy of the Imperium and all of its supporters, Russ proved that Angron broke his own Legion. As far as I'm concerned, they both lost that day. Still, its sad when Angron of all people have the moral high ground. You have to be pretty low for that to happen. Like Curze low.

I was going to respond to b1soul's post directly, but this says a lot of what I was going to say anyways.

 

The fact that Angron stopped when Russ crawled away, means absolutely nothing to the fact that Angron was trying to kill Russ up to that point.

 

And aye, back to Kol's post, that is the hypocrisy I love so much. Angron did have the moral high ground. The freedom-fighter who enslaved himself worse than any former master, is as much a hypocritical character as Mortarion, the Primarch who backed the worst tyrant of all in his act to betray a far lesser one, or Russ, the Primarch who takes pride in his role as executioner in spite of having no power to fulfill the role on his own.

 

In this situation, Russ was factually right, but morally wrong. And this prevents him from accomplishing his goal, to 'fix' them.