Russ is on Terra?

[b1soul]

 

 

The fact that Angron stopped when Russ crawled away, means absolutely nothing to the fact that Angron was trying to kill Russ up to that point.

 

...and this is because...you say so?

 

If Angron was bent on killing Russ...why would Angron suddenly stop when he has his chance? If Angron wants to kill, I'm pretty sure he's going to see it through.  

 

Aside from your supposition, do you have evidence that Angron was actually trying to end Russ? Do you have evidence that an enraged Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron in the heat of the moment?

 

For all we know, Russ, all worked up and enraged, might've been trying to kill Angron. Had Russ actually done so, he would've ended up becoming the target of sanction despite any regret on his part. This would've been a serving of delicious irony.    

[Wade Garrett]

What I said was obvious was that Russ was trying to prove a lesson. That was obvious, whether goaded into the fight or not. Angron, on the other hand, sees any fight as a fight to the death.

According to After De'She, at least one of the warriors in Angron's slave army was a gladiator he had beaten but not killed in the arena. ("Cromach, he fought with a brazier glaive. Hah! I gave him the first black twist in his rope, and he and I burned the watchtowers at Hozzean together.")

 

Now, this was before the horror of De'Shelika Ridge and centuries of the Nails chewing away at his brain, so it's not unbelievable that Angron at Ghenna can't fight in any way except to the death, but there was a time when he was capable of some degree of restraint.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

What I said was obvious was that Russ was trying to prove a lesson. That was obvious, whether goaded into the fight or not. Angron, on the other hand, sees any fight as a fight to the death.

According to After De'She, at least one of the warriors in Angron's slave army was a gladiator he had beaten but not killed in the arena. ("Cromach, he fought with a brazier glaive. Hah! I gave him the first black twist in his rope, and he and I burned the watchtowers at Hozzean together.")

 

Now, this was before the horror of De'Shelika Ridge and centuries of the Nails chewing away at his brain, so it's not unbelievable that Angron at Ghenna can't fight in any way except to the death, but there was a time when he was capable of some degree of restraint.

 

 

Shoot. according to Betrayer, Angron used to attend strategy sessions. And strategize. And it was only recently that he started leaving early before cutting out altogether. And people say he never planned assaults.

[tdemayo]

I am starting to find all this interminable running about really implausible.  I thought Horus was making a lightning-strike on Terra, a variation of his spearhead tactics.  Instead, the Legions seem to be able to fly around the galaxy pursuing side-wars.

[Scyld Fireblade]

Vlka Fenryka. "Wolves of Fenris". Tag "space" and BAM! You get Space Wolves.

Actually, Vlka Fenryka means Warriors of Fenris. They hate being called Space Wolves. Remember there are no wolves on Fenris.

[Kol Saresk]

Did you know that if you traveled from one end of the country to the other, it would never be a straight line? See, sometimes you have to stop and do things like get gas, eat or sleep. Not to mention laundry. Not to mention the roads themselves do not go in straight lines. Sometimes you have to spend three hours going north before you can continue going west because that is how the roads play out.<br /><br />The galaxy is like that. Horus has to subdue the entire Imperium. This means striking at as many places as possible to cement a power base. Attacking Ultramar, seizing Forgeworlds, capturing weapons of mass destruction, etc. This means it is impossible for him to just attack Terra. Would it have been easier when it was just the Fists and the defenses were just starting construction? Oh most certainly. However, what would he do when the entirety of the Ultramarines, the Wolves(following Prospero of course), the Dark Angels and the White Scars bearing down on him? Try and hastily rebuild Terra in the hopes that he can hold off the assault of four Legions? One of which would number well over 200,000? Blitzkriegs are great for first strikes. But they don't carry wars. And when someone is wearing full-plate armor, a spear strike to the throat usually requires a bit of patience, sweat and blood to engineer.

[Scribe]

We've had enough of your logic here Kol. Lets get back to circular arguments about how Russ picked a fight he shouldnt have.

[b1soul]

 

so it's not unbelievable that Angron at Ghenna can't fight in any way except to the death, but there was a time when he was capable of some degree of restraint.

 

There was a time indeed...like Night of the Wolf when he didn't flip out and enter RAWR RAWR KILL SMASH KILL  mode

 

Instead he exchanged barbed words with Russ, who decided it would be a good idea to charge Angron and swing first.

 

Angron then showed pretty noticeable restraint by not killing a battered Russ who was trying to crawl away 

 

I just find it odd some people argue that Angron is this berserk, Nails-driven maniac...and then they turn around and argue that despite his out-of-control bloodlust, Angron is capable of suddenly switching it off when he realises his opponent has been taking it easy on him. I mean, really?  

 

How about both fought hard to dominate the other but Angron happened to win this time...Russ however also proved his point about the deterioration of World Eater tactical intelligence, i.e. the WE have little to zero in contrast to the SW who have plenty 

[Conn Eremon]

I just find it odd some people argue that Angron is this berserk, Nails-driven maniac...and then they turn around and argue that despite his out-of-control bloodlust, Angron is capable of suddenly switching it off when he realises his opponent has been taking it easy on him. I mean, really?

I only said he was trying to kill Russ. I never said he went berserk and then just went normal again. I just said he was trying to kill Russ. Which it seemed to me was exactly what he was trying to do, up to when a brief lull in the fight segued into Russ trying prove his point.

 

How about both fought hard to dominate the other but Angron happened to win this time...Russ however also proved his point about the deterioration of World Eater tactical intelligence, i.e. the WE have little to zero in contrast to the SW who have plenty

You say that as if the point you are arguing against says anything different than that. How about that's the case for both?

[RapatoR]

Ascribing some sort of intellectual faculties to the Space Wolves, to Russ? Really?

 

All I can say is that they are pelt wearing, mead drinking space barbarians, let them die on the blades of the Alpha Legion I say, no one will miss a few thousand Space Wolves. I think it might even tear the gaze of Magnus for a second or two from his books. 

 

In the end let the doggy play executioner, it seems the only thing he credits himself and his runts to be.

 

Proper Prosperine rant aside, so far in all the novels concerning the Space Wolves this "executioner" role is really overshadowing everything concerning with Russ and his sons and is doing them a great disservice. It is sidelining them in a mentality not theirs, in a role only loosely fitting to the Space Wolves...

 

But hey, all in all who am I to lament the poor writing of the Space Wolves, I read twice every legionary death of the VIth legion with great gusto. Let the dogs die I repeat, they wish to be wolves, but they are mere puppies with only milk teeth to bare. They deserve everything coming after them after their barbarity and betrayal of a brother legion on Prospero.  

 

Oh be quiet you filthy Alpha Legionnaire, Wolves are awesome.

 

To the topic: I don't doubt that Russ has some kind of plan nor I doubt he is intelligent. In the same scene where he reveals his plans, you see he created advanced version of chess and he outplays Malcador. That is not small feat. But this is the problem. Let's forget for a moment that he sent a team on Vengeful Spirit to mar a way for him (so he plans boarding it) and is taking entire legion with him (so it probably won't be something subtle). He plans to take on HORUS by himself. Effin' Horus. You know the guy who was chosen by the Emperor to lead Crusade. Best, brightest, strongest primarch, there is. Russ should know that trying to overpower/outsmart a stronger/more intelligent opponent is folly.

 

Moreover, there is a certain lesson Russ tried to give to Angron and suddenly he has forgotten it?

 

Seriously, it feels like Mortarion would suddenly say: 'Screw you Horus, screw all of you, I am taking on Emperor all by myself.' Not a logical thing to do no matter how cunning your plan is.

[Greyall]

At that time, Horus still

 

 

hasn't gained Emperor-level powers

 

 

and I'm thinking Russ might change his plans when he hears of it.

[GhostMalone]

On the angron Russ thing, angron has honour even with the nails biting what honour or glory is killing your brother if he's not fighting back.

 

The warhounds were the executioners this is fact

 

The world eaters were one of the worst things to face as it's an unrelenting tide of axe blades rage and superhuman psychotics

 

The space wolves were still bound by rules

[Greyall]

More than honour, I think Angron liked a good testing, but once the Nails turned on the afterburners...he wanted nothing but blood.

 

Remember, he went 2x1 against Guilliman and shoved Khârn aside so he could...well...fight the Ultramarines Captain Orpheo...tearing him apart. Even Daemonhost Argel Tal remarked that such an act was sick in the extreme.

[RapatoR]

At that time, Horus still

 

 

hasn't gained Emperor-level powers

 

 

and I'm thinking Russ might change his plans when he hears of it.

 

Well I was talking about Horus before that event.

[Týr]

Did you know that if you traveled from one end of the country to the other, it would never be a straight line? See, sometimes you have to stop and do things like get gas, eat or sleep. Not to mention laundry. Not to mention the roads themselves do not go in straight lines. Sometimes you have to spend three hours going north before you can continue going west because that is how the roads play out.<br /><br />The galaxy is like that. Horus has to subdue the entire Imperium. This means striking at as many places as possible to cement a power base. Attacking Ultramar, seizing Forgeworlds, capturing weapons of mass destruction, etc. This means it is impossible for him to just attack Terra. Would it have been easier when it was just the Fists and the defenses were just starting construction? Oh most certainly. However, what would he do when the entirety of the Ultramarines, the Wolves(following Prospero of course), the Dark Angels and the White Scars bearing down on him? Try and hastily rebuild Terra in the hopes that he can hold off the assault of four Legions? One of which would number well over 200,000? Blitzkriegs are great for first strikes. But they don't carry wars. And when someone is wearing full-plate armor, a spear strike to the throat usually requires a bit of patience, sweat and blood to engineer.

 

The reason it would never be a straight line is because the Earth is approximate a sphere. When travelling around the Earth you always follow a great circle if you want to go fastest from A to B.

Sorry couldn't resist...

[Leif Bearclaw]

The warhounds were the executioners this is fact

Based on what? The main body of evidence I'm aware of for that is Betrayal and the role of the XII in the Unification Wars/Cerberus Station. And it specifically states that the XII being kept back during Unification in case of treachery is pure speculation. And is states that Cerberus happened while the crusade was deploying, and the XII were the most convenient/only Legion to hand. The best interpretation of that fluff I can see is 'executioner' by circumstance rather than design. This compares, poorly imo, with the evidence, both direct and circumstantial for the Wolves in that roles that I've already laid out in this thread.

Although, why do we assume that there was meant to be THE executioner Legion? For all we know the VI and the XII could have been intended to fulfil similar roles. Or the XII could have been the exterminators, annihilating threats from without, while the Wolves and Alphas ideally dealt with threats from within. But very little of the Emperor's plan seems to have worked out as he intended.

Really it's a bit pointless to say that a specific Legion is 'one of the worst things to face', as they're all that, that's the point of the Legiones Astartes. Is a wave of axe swinging psychos really that much worse than the psychic death spewing XV, the unrelenting firepower of the IV or the armoured might of the X? (Rinse repeat for you Legion of choice, I picked the first three that came to mind that weren't the Wolves )

[Clone]

What I found more perplexing is that Russ told Loken and Malcador that he doesn't think he can beat Horus but is going to try anyway.

[daveNYC]

Did you know that if you traveled from one end of the country to the other, it would never be a straight line? See, sometimes you have to stop and do things like get gas, eat or sleep. Not to mention laundry. Not to mention the roads themselves do not go in straight lines. Sometimes you have to spend three hours going north before you can continue going west because that is how the roads play out.<br /><br />The galaxy is like that. Horus has to subdue the entire Imperium. This means striking at as many places as possible to cement a power base. Attacking Ultramar, seizing Forgeworlds, capturing weapons of mass destruction, etc. This means it is impossible for him to just attack Terra. Would it have been easier when it was just the Fists and the defenses were just starting construction? Oh most certainly. However, what would he do when the entirety of the Ultramarines, the Wolves(following Prospero of course), the Dark Angels and the White Scars bearing down on him? Try and hastily rebuild Terra in the hopes that he can hold off the assault of four Legions? One of which would number well over 200,000? Blitzkriegs are great for first strikes. But they don't carry wars. And when someone is wearing full-plate armor, a spear strike to the throat usually requires a bit of patience, sweat and blood to engineer.

 

This depends on what Horus' situation was during the Heresy.  The initial books make it appear that even after the ambush at Istvaan V he is still at a major disadvantage to the Imperium in regards to material and manpower.  This would mean that a rush to Terra with the aim of decapitating the leadership and shutting down the Astronomicon before the Imperium can get it's act together and simply drown him in bodies is his best bet for success.  If the balance of forces between the traitors and loyalists is closer, then waiting to get the ducks in a row and setting up supply chains and the like is a viable plan.

 

We shouldn't forget that Terra is important for more reasons than simply being the center of government and home of the Emperor.  Those reasons would be more than enough to make it the prime target.  It's the Astronomicon that really makes it number one with a bullet.  Now that Horus is discovering the advantages that working for Chaos can bring, shutting down the Astronomicon would win the war for him.  Imperial forces would no longer be able to travel the warp in an effective manner, they'd be limited to short and fairly inaccurate hops, leaving them unable to combine and respond to the traitors, while the traitors would be able to use their daemonic allies to let them group up and knock off all the surviving Imperial forces piecemeal.

 

tl;dr?  Horus needs to take Terra, and the urgency (and hence how much time he can spend mucking around on Randomus Battlus XV) depends on what percentage of the Imperial forces he has managed to turn to his side.

[Kol Saresk]

However he only discovers the advantages four years in. By year three, Guilliman is regaining control in Ultramar to the point he can take a back seat and organize the Imperium Secundus. The White Scars are doing who knows what to the Traitor forces. The Raven Guard have been back in the game for two years. Sometime around this time, Russ has escaped Alaxxes and is either on his way to Terra, or is already there. At least one group of Iron Hands are using the Keys of Hel to make an undead cyborg army and are successfully using it against the Traitors they come across. And the Blood Angels just showed up in Ultramar, where they have joined forces with the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels and can begin being resupplied and receive repairs to their ships. The Imperium has gained its cohesiveness. Yes, its scattered in big giant blocks, but those are big, giant blocks that are weathering the storm. The chance to just rush and take the Astronomicon is gone. And going by Lorgar's plans for Ultramar as well as the objective of Paramar being to capture resources, a big, giant blitzkrieg was never the intent. The intent was to build power base along the way to Terra, from which to conquer the rest of the Imperium.

[Raulmichile]

So the heresy was doomed to fail almost since the beginning. Interesting.

 

So there are two ways of looking at this. First: Horus was not as good a strategist because he chooses after all the wrong moment to sublevate, based on just a glimpse of an real opportunity to win, or: Second, he is really an uber general because considering all cons, he almost pushed the big win.

 

Mmmmmmhhhhhhh.......

[Kol Saresk]

A bit of both. One does not fail because they're stupid. More often than not, the risk was simply too great to succeed. Like Hannibal. He took a risk he could reach Rome through the Alps. He did. But he lost so much of his army and lost the war along the way.

 

Here, Horus planned a multiple prong attack. Hit as many places as he could, as hard as he could. And he did. But they either recovered faster than anticipated or endured better than expected. And it cost him.

[Phoebus]

I'm not here to argue whether or not Russ's actions in Vengeful Spirit (or before that novel, for that matter) make sense.  Without access to Russ's thoughts on the matter, we're stuck with "I'm going to end this war by ripping out his throat."  Any debate on they "why" of that course of action hinges on conjecture.  One side has to accept that certain courses of actions that the primarchs take just don't show them in a positive light.  The other side has to accept that, as paradoxical as it might sound, primarchs are indeed brilliant beings despite actions and decisions that point to the contrary.  Yes, that includes Angron*.  Yes, that includes Russ.

 

While the debate itself can be a fun distraction, can we agree that the Horus Heresy series could benefit from the authors providing some more context regarding major decisions being made?

 

* I think credit should be given to Dembski-Bowden for focusing on the fact that Angron is degrading/falling apart, and that this is having an obvious effect on his sanity, the decisions he makes, the tactics he adopts, etc.  That is, he focuses on the context behind the character's erratic behavior.  Does this make all of Angron's choices plausible?  I don't think so.  For instance, it's easy enough to see how the Butcher's Nails could ultimately lead to a planet-wide holocaust.  It's hard, however, to reconcile Angron's rants against the Emperor, the Imperium, and their enslavement of people when he doesn't seem to feel guilt over his own atrocities.  That comes down to the pre-existing background of the character, though.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, if we go the "Crazy-Smart-Stupid" route, even the Emperor begins to make sense. It doesn't have to make sense to us; it just has to make sense to them.

[DarkChaplain]

I read that there were questions regarding why Russ was on Terra in the first place. Simple:

 

His fleet was wrecked due to the Alpha Legion. He was at Terra, thanks to the Dark Angels' help, to get repairs done and reorganize his Legion.

 

 

‘How long until your fleet is battle ready?’ asked Malcador, though he had already digested the work schedules of the Fenrisian vessels from Fabricator Kane at the Novopangean orbital yards.

‘Alpharius’s whelps tried to tear the Hrafnkel’s heart out, but her bones are strong and she’ll sail again,’ said Russ with a phlegmatic grunt. ‘The shipwrights tell me it’ll be another three months at least before she’s void-worthy, and not even Bear’s threats are getting them to move faster.’ [...]
‘And the rest of the fleet?’ ‘Probably longer,’ said Russ. ‘The delay chafes, but if Caliban’s angels hadn’t arrived when they did, there wouldn’t be a fleet left to rebuild at all. We fill our time though. We train, we fight and prepare for what’s ahead.’

 

Russ didn't just appear on Terra to reject Dorn's request, he was there because he had no other option. Limping to Terra, with its highly advanced shipyards and repair crews, was the best choice he could have made. He was safe there, unlike on Fenris. He could count on the terrans' loyalty and workmanship.

So, according to his replies to Malcador, the Hrafnkel wouldn't be ready for another three months at the earliest, with the bulk of his fleet out for longer.

 

I also don't think that sending the Knights Errant onto the Vengeful Spirit was all there was to it, or that the markings left on the ship were only to mark the way to the bridge. As Bror said, not all signs were visible - I wouldn't be surprised if the bigger task was for them to leave some way for Russ to track Horus in some manner, making a hunt possible, rather than being on the receiving end until Terra.

 

And yes, Russ expressed doubts about his ability to take down Horus. Horus was the only one he said he wasn't sure about being able to beat. Still, Horus was not necessarily the "strongest" Primarch. Vulkan is said to have been the physically strongest, always holding back. Angron was the most brutal, etc. Horus wasn't picked as Warmaster because he could beat up all his brothers one-on-one, but because he combined all the valuable assets into one, very powerful package. It doesn't make him immune to being challenged, however, and in a direct duel, he'd be more limited in what he can bring to bear.

 

Russ wouldn't win, I think that much is clear now, with Horus +9000'd after Molech. But it doesn't mean that Russ could have disabled the flagship, decimated his Legion's leadership and severely wounded the Warmaster in multiple ways. Losing the Vengeful Spirit, for example, or the Mournival, would have been a serious blow to the traitors' morale, and would have pulled Horus's might into question.

Horus already expressed his frustration about the other Primarchs doubting his way in the Warmaster audio drama, what do you think would have happened if Russ had been in some way able to point a blade at the Warmaster's throat?

 

Also, as of Vengeful Spirit, it seems The Unremembered Empire has not yet happened. Malcador tells the Emperor that the Lion is on his way to Ultramar, and they speculate that Guilliman is building an empire, based on what they know about him.

Vengeful Spirit plays after Angel Exterminatus, and at least halfway through Betrayer, as Armatura has already happened. Mersadie Oliton has been held captive for about 2 years, it seems, placing Vengeful Spirit around 2 years after the events of the Eisenstein.

 

Whether or not the Alpha Legion managed to tie the Wolves down at Alaxxes for years we cannot say right now. It seems likely, however, that the road to Terra was not easy for the Wolves. The travel alone might have taken months upon months. If we'd assume that repairs to the Wolves' fleet would take a year, there'd still be half the Heresy left. There's much yet to happen, and I don't see why Russ would have waited for Horus to strike when the Warmaster was reportedly elsewhere and rolling up strategic targets one by one.

 

 

HORUS: A thousand battles, ten thousand, ten times ten times ten thousand, to bring about the new age. All of the certainties of the past torn down, all the beliefs that made them turned to ashes. War on every front, stretched across time until none can know when the final blow will come. There is no disaster, for all disasters serve me alone. [emphatic] The storm rises only so that the thunderbolt may fall.

 

Horus was in no big hurry. He was gathering assets to aid him while crippling his brothers. As of VS, Guilliman, the Lion and Sanguinius have not come together yet. Corax was still rebuilding. The Iron Hands and Salamanders were still scattered and broken.

And if Vengeful Spirit has demonstrated one thing, it is that Horus is playing the long game. He looks at the whole board, and directs his forces accordingly, based on all he knows and suspects.

 

We'll have to wait and read what Russ is truly up to. Anything beyond the fact that he will go for Horus's throat is purely speculation at this point.

[Wade Garrett]

So....the only reason the Alpha Legion didn't leave Russ a frozen corpse in the void was because the Dark Angels came in like the cavalry.

 

Russ's new plan is to go straight for the Sons of Horus, a Legion that is larger and more accomplished than the XX, who are also traveling with the Death Guard.

 

Wow. So executioner. Such planning. Much brilliant. Very tactician.