Russ is on Terra?

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The issue is that there's a disparity between the portrayal of Ferrus in Fulgrim and Massacre - or, they depict him within different time frames.

First things first, the Gorgon wasn't a tactical idiot. He repeatedly lead other Legions & their Primarchs during the Great Crusade, and was chosen by Dorn to lead a combined force of 7 Legions at Isstvan V. Hell, Massacre says he was passed over as Warmaster because he didn't have Horus' charisma.

Secondly, the depiction of Ferrus in Fulgrim is merely a snapshot. It shows him after everything he thought he knew had been shattered. Fulgrim, his closest friend and possibly the only sibling he genuinely cared about had just declared himself a traitor to the cause Ferrus has spent 200 years fighting for, and tried to assassinate him to add to the bargain. At Isstvan V, Ferrus is not himself, he is all the terrifying potential for destruction a Primarch possesses incarnate.

Thirdly, there is no indication Ferrus' objective was to end Horus' rebellion himself. It was far more personal. Yes, he laid meticulous plans for the engagement, but once there he relied on the other Legions & their Primarchs to act accordingly. The only real objective he seemed to have personally was killing Fulgrim. For the arduous, painfully slow journey through the warp to Issvan V, it was all he had been thinking of. His entire worldview was that he, his sons and his brothers were weapons of war forged by the Emperor. I have no doubt that other than surviving to end Fulgrim, he didn't view his life as an essential component of a Loyalist victory. The spearhead the Avernii Clan formed served only one purpose: to punch through the enemy lines in order to deliver him to Fulgrim. Also, the psychological impact of executing the Primarch of a Legion which prides itself on mirroring the 'perfect' example set by their father cannot be overstated.

Fourthly, considering the X Legion force accompanying Ferrus as numerically inferior is somewhat irrelevant. Their purpose was to cause as much damage to the enemy as possible, considering the fact the rest of the 52nd Expedition was to damaged / slow to make it in time. As always with the X Legion, survival is optional. Plus, it consisted if huge quantities of heavy armour, within a formation built around armoured assault. They also consisted of the Legion's elite, and this is still within a Legion which possessed bionic augmentation which increased a Legionary's endurance above their inherent biological ability. Something also worth considering is that the Iron Hands were a Legion specialized in fighting the most technologically advanced civilizations the Great Crusade encountered, and was equipped appropriately if any Legion had the equipment to give them an edge against fellow Legionaries, it was these guys. Now, this may sound Mary-Sue-ish, but pound for pound, X Legionaries were some of the most powerful out there [hence, their relatively small number] - although at least I'm not suggesting they're 'Executioners'

[b1soul]

I only said he was trying to kill Russ. I never said he went berserk and then just went normal again. I just said he was trying to kill Russ. Which it seemed to me was exactly what he was trying to do, up to when a brief lull in the fight segued into Russ trying prove his point.

 

The thing is...if Angron had a strong desire to kill Russ, that desire would probably trigger his bloodlust

 

...but let's say (for argument's sake) that it's possible for Angron to really want to kill someone without losing himself to his bloodlust. That still begs the question: Why would Angron suddenly stop wanting to kill Russ upon finding out that Russ had essentially been taking him lightly by not fighting that hard?

 

I mean...really? That wouldn't piss off Angron even more? 

 

Your explanation (i.e. Russ only lost the duel because Angron was fighting to kill whereas Russ wasn't, except Angron suddenly stopped wanting to kill Russ when he had a great opportunity to do so...and despite Russ' lack of control when he charged Angron and swung first) is only one possible explanation. It's the explanation most in favour of Russ, but it certainly isn't the likeliest explanation. In fact, I find it rather unlikely

 

Angron has a strong urge to kill Russ...yet that urge never triggers Angron's berserk mode? 

Angron suddenly loses the urge to kill Russ because...he realises that Russ has the nerve to be holding back against him? 

Russ is the one who isn't fighting to kill...despite being the one who loses control and assaults his brother with deadly weapons?

 

Yeah...not buying it  

[Conn Eremon]

. . . I never said that Russ only lost because of such and such reasons. I said he had set himself up to lose.

 

All to bring something up that had died and moved on three days ago.

[svane jotunsbane]

didn't ADB write " if Russ was fighting to kill, then that whole point of the chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angrons insight - when he recognises that Russ probably didn't have the authority to start a war against the XII legion - is also moot as well."  so maybe im interpreting it wrong but the author pretty much states that Russ wasn't trying to kill him.

 

"...and Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Angron chased as the wolf king staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight. "do you see" he said,"

in which russ goes to point out to angron whats happening in the larger battle picture.

"the axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at he ranks of wolves facing him with there bolters raised." why would you advance on someone after a fist fight on the ground after retrieving your weapon, if u didn't intend to kill them? just my 2 cents worth. so he might not have been beserk, but I believe he certainly was intending to use that axe on russ.

[Wade Garrett]

So...Ghenna was all just an elaborate plan on Russ's part to teach Angron the magic of friendship.

 

And it's all Angron's fault for not recognizing that by calling him a gelded, black hearted heretic, trying to shove a chainsword through his face, and having his Wolves gun down the World Eaters, Russ was just trying to show how much he cared.

 

Am I understanding this correctly?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I would say you have the message right, if you received it from Fox News.

 

WLK

[Conn Eremon]

I think what Kol said about who was 'right' remains true, as I see it.

 

While the point Russ intended to prove was accurate, his entire approach was flawed and doomed to fail. Not just because of Angron's shortcomings in that regard, but also because Russ should have just known better.

 

And Angron himself had the morally high ground, as shown by how easily Russ resorted to violently forcing control as soon as it was resisted.

[Scribe]

As from a distance...he heard the call...

 

Are we doing this again?

[b1soul]

. . . I never said that Russ only lost because of such and such reasons. I said he had set himself up to lose.

 

All to bring something up that had died and moved on three days ago.

 

LOL? It "died" because I was too busy to reply three days ago. What's wrong with replying now? 

 

...and yes you did say Russ only lost because of such and such reasons. 

 

You said Russ lost the duel because he wasn't fighting to kill whereas Angron was. Are you retracting that claim now? 

 

...and no, Russ didn't set himself up to lose. What the...why? Russ was in an enraged state when he charged Angron. We don't know whether Russ was holding back or not when he assaulted Angron out of rage. If Angron had slipped up, Russ might have killed him and ended up regretting it later. Russ has a hot-headed streak of his own.  

 

Russ wasn't behaving like a well-meaning "teacher" throughout the entire incident. He behaved like a hot-head. Got beat down. And then he proceeded to point out his "lesson" to an Angron who was surprisingly willing to hear him out (though Russ' words went unheeded)

 

 

 

didn't ADB write " if Russ was fighting to kill, then that whole point of the chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angrons insight - when he recognises that Russ probably didn't have the authority to start a war against the XII legion - is also moot as well."  so maybe im interpreting it wrong but the author pretty much states that Russ wasn't trying to kill him.

 

If that's the case, I'd argue that Angron wasn't necessarily fighting to kill either. When Angron fights to kill, his kill-switch usually gets flipped on. Angron shows surprising restraint throughout the scene. 

 

It's possible that both were fighting with a mixture of reserve and ill-will. The battle likely played out like a cross between a fight to the death and a brotherly brawl. 

 

 

"...and Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Angron chased as the wolf king staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight. "do you see" he said,"

in which russ goes to point out to angron whats happening in the larger battle picture.

"the axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at he ranks of wolves facing him with there bolters raised." why would you advance on someone after a fist fight on the ground after retrieving your weapon, if u didn't intend to kill them? just my 2 cents worth. so he might not have been beserk, but I believe he certainly was intending to use that axe on russ.

 

This also begs the question: Does Russ crawl faster than Angron runs? Because the only way Russ could gain distance on Angron by crawling is if Angron didn't follow him immediately...which would show some reserve on Angron's part. 

 

Anyway...I think I could ask you a similar question. If Angron was really hell-bent on killing Russ, why did Angron stop just because Russ started to give a speech? I don't think Angron is the type of guy to be scared off by bolters. If he really wanted to kill Russ, he would've made an attempt I think...I don't think he would've listened to Russ' speech.

 

Also, Angron's position was in a bad position but it wasn't as bad as it looked. If he closed distance with Russ, the Space Wolves would risk hitting their own primarch. I don't think the Wolves would be able to put down Angron quickly enough in that situation. However, they could likely saturate Angron with enough firepower to kill him after he finished off Russ. 

[Scribe]

Guys. Havent we done this to death?

 

1. Neither was trying to kill the other.

2. Russ lost the fight.

3. Angron would have lost his life if Russ had chosen to let his marines do what he couldnt.

4. Russ would have lost his life if Angron had wanted to kill him.

5. Both lost, both claim to have won.

6. Angron is morally superior. :p

[Conn Eremon]

I'll just put this here, then.

 

The idea of Russ deliberately throwing the fight is silly. But it was kind of obvious that Russ was fighting to prove a point, not to kill Angron. Angron, on the other hand, was fighting to kill. So while Russ definitely didn't lose on purpose, he was definitely going to lose (and no, not because of the idiotic 'Angron always win because he best fighter' logic that tends to be thrown about without thought) because of that.

Edit: But I did like how you got flustered at the idea of Russ setting himself up to lose, then proceed to describe how he did so as an argent against it.

[Grimtooth]

While Russ got a beatdown, just how much do you think it was given rather then recieved?  In otherwords, we see the end of the fight where Russ crawls away to give a speech, but in turn Angron is completely surrounded by Wolves ready to pull the a trigger. 

 

Could Russ have proved his point about the World Eaters had he not drawn Angron away and instead just dropped him where he stood?  Frankly it appears that Russ pushed and pushed Angron, baiting and baiting him into the situation that Angron ultimately found himself in that Lorgar had to point out to Angron was a losing situation for Angron.  Was it a rope-a-dope?  Since Russ cannot prove his point any other way then completely exposing that the World Eaters were too far gone to care about their primarch, it appears so.

[Scribe]

Russ pushed and pushed? Russ baited Angron?

 

You may wish to re-read it brother.

[Wade Garrett]

I think any plan that has as a starting point "We all line up literally within spitting distance of the World Eaters" as its starting point is a terrible plan that casts grave doubts on the competence of the planner.

 

See also:

"Let's out-siege Perturabo and the Iron Warriors!", "Let's out chemical weapons Mortarion and the Death Guard", and "I know! We'll challenge the Iron Hands to a Who-Can-Cut-Bits-Of-Themselves-Off-And-Replace-Them-With-Metal-Better contest!"

[Grimtooth]

Russ pushed and pushed? Russ baited Angron?

 

You may wish to re-read it brother.

I ask you to look at it exactly as Lorgar explained it.  There is no other way that Russ draws Angron away from his Legion and surround him with his own Legion if the fight had not gone as it did.  No way at all.  If Russ stands toe-to-toe with Angron, no point is made about what the Butchers Nails has done to the World Eaters. 

[Grimtooth]

I think any plan that has as a starting point "We all line up literally within spitting distance of the World Eaters" as its starting point is a terrible plan that casts grave doubts on the competence of the planner.

 

See also:

"Let's out-siege Perturabo and the Iron Warriors!", "Let's out chemical weapons Mortarion and the Death Guard", and "I know! We'll challenge the Iron Hands to a Who-Can-Cut-Bits-Of-Themselves-Off-And-Replace-Them-With-Metal-Better contest!"

You do understand that could have clearly been the point of lining up across from them to prove the defiency of the Nails?

 

Lets say that we remove Lorgar giving context to Angron after the conflict.  All we have is Russ looking as if he is trying to grandstand in a buttkicking.  That would be my impression of him, even as a stauch VIth supporter.  However, the exchange between Lorgar and Angron cements the point being made about the World Eaters and the Nails that reinforces the point Russ was trying to make.  A point that Russ can only make by drawing Angron away from his crazed Legion and surrounding him with Wolves ready to open all types of hell on him.

 

How do you lead a blood crazed animal into a trap?  You give him bloody bait, period.

[Phoebus]

The plan of waiting does impose some questions, such as would the Urgall Depression be a viable landing zone after a few hours of sustained orbital bombardment? It's entirely possible that it would destroy the ground, rendering it impossible for the Loyalists larger landers and heavy gear to be landed successfully.

 

That's an eminently logical question.  Without trying to sound snarky, I think it would be blocked by the same sort of plot armour as the void shield question.  Depending on how the author wants it to work, the Urgall Depression might still serve as a viable landing zone.  Or it might not.

 

That having been said, I do kind of disagree with your premise.  Why exactly would the loyalists bombard it to the point that it's no longer a viable dropsite?  Their actual bombardment was confined to trying to beat down the void shields and to strike mobile launchers shooting missiles into orbit.  The only reason why they would target the Urgall Depression wholesale is if Horus put a worthwhile array of targets out there.

 

As for the assault itself, it was always going to be a costly slugging match, everyone knew that going in. Was Ferrus too impulsive with his attack, not waiting for all his troops, and his refusal to retreat? Yes. However, these mistakes, while still potentially costing Ferrus his life, would not have changed the outcome if both waves had been loyal. They could afford to keep slugging it out, Horus would run out of men before they did.

 

The error with that logic is that you assume Horus's Space Marines would have perished at the same rate regardless of the numerical odds involved.

 

By launching two assaults, one while outnumbered, Ferrus Manus simply ensured that the first assaulting force was going to suffer disproportionate and unnecessary losses.

 

Tbh, when you sum up the plan like that, it has a distinct similarity to Soviet WW2 tactics, which, though brutal and costly, did work.

 

Those similarities are no coincidence - the earlier Forge World books include introductions wherein the writers expressed their fondness for big tank battles.  And of course the tactics used for battles like Kursk did work - but they worked within the context of that era.  40k and the Horus Heresy rely on an amount of anachronism, and to an extent that works.  Space Marines, for instance, don't just use melee weapons because they're stylish; their mobility (drop pods, teleportation, etc.) and the survivability their power armour affords them make getting into close combat not just possible, but desirable.  That shouldn't be a license to rely on anachronism as a crutch, but here we are.  It's how we have artillery that only fires out to a kilometer and walls made of wood and stone in Vengeful Spirit.

 

Also it's worth remembering that the defenders would be as exhausted as the first wave, and didn't have reinforcements. If they'd been loyal (and Ferrus hadn't gone a bit crazy once he landed), you have a situation where the 7 loyal Legions can cycle in and out of the attack, resting and rearming, while the Traitors get no respite. While this effect would have been possible with 1 landing, I think it's a safe assumption that each Legion would work better as a single entity, so landing and attacking in 2 waves gives each attacking Legion the chance to bring it's full force to bear, as opposed clogging up a battlefield with 7 Legions attacking on narrower fronts. The latter also has more potential fracture points between the Legion, as the inter-legion support, comms and coordination is probably not as tight as it is within each individual Legion.

 

Cycle after cycle of outnumbered elements attacking uphill against a fortified opponent?  Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that the loyalists would win, but at what cost?  Ferrus's initial assault, which enjoyed better odds than a single legion attacking on its own, was thought to have suffered around 40% casualties!  Continuing along those lines, though with even fewer warriors would simply have ensured that another legion or two would have been mauled to less than half their original fighting strength.

 

On the first point here, while the answer does contain some 'because', there is some in fluff justification/precedent. It's a general point of the setting the orbital bombardments rarely worry surface installations with intact voids. I believe this is generally due to the plasma generators that power such tech are able to either be bigger, and/or can put all their output towards shields, whereas the equivalent generators on ships have to dedicate their output to life support, engines, weapons etc, so they never have 100% for one purpose. So its more of a setting wide 'because' than a specific issue with Istvaan V.

 

Unfortunately, it's a very inconsistent "because".  That is, I don't doubt the logic behind your argument so much as I'm pointing out that it works or doesn't work as the author desires.  For instance, the Index Astartes:  Battle Barges article issued just a short while ago states that killing void shields and ground defenses is exactly what battle barges are meant to do.  That's hardly a unique position within the setting.  Little fluff blurbs in core rulebooks, codices, and Battlefleet Gothic alike remind us of something that should be pretty obvious:  that the Adeptus Astartes wouldn't work very well as an organization if their battle barges and strike cruisers could only "rarely worry surface installations with intact voids."

 

On the second point, if we apply too much logic, then most of the fights in 30k/40k should really be void war and boarding assaults, especially with Astartes. After all, it takes day/months for a conventional fleet to reach its target from jump points, plenty of time to intercept with space assests, and not endanger your planet based resource/logistic network. But how many time, outside of old BFG fluff, are invaders ever stopped in space?

 

You're preaching to the choir, then.  That's exactly what I'm getting at.  A lot of the action that you see in Black Library novels and Forge World books is the way it is because of a conscious decision to, well, dumb down tactics.  That's not to say that there's no room for tanks, or Titans, or ground battle in general.  I'm a huge fan of the work that Forge World puts in toward creating interesting war machines.  The last thing I want is for someone to think I think their venue is obsolete, or that I don't want Black Library authors to write about them.  Quite simply, there will always be situations where the invaders can't simply say, "Well, we'll just level that city/nation/continent/planet from orbit."  There just needs to be more thought put in toward making those actions more appropriate to the setting.  Right now, though, certain battles we see in the 31st or 41st millennium could literally we dropped into the Warhammer Fantasy setting - so long as you simply replace a few nouns.  And that's simply disappointing.

[Phoebus]

First things first, the Gorgon wasn't a tactical idiot. He repeatedly lead other Legions & their Primarchs during the Great Crusade, and was chosen by Dorn to lead a combined force of 7 Legions at Isstvan V. Hell, Massacre says he was passed over as Warmaster because he didn't have Horus' charisma.

 

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I thought Ferrus Manus was an idiot.  My intent was to qualify exactly the opposite:  that, whether or not they are always shown that way, primarchs are tactically brilliant.  That's my reason for contrasting Leman Russ with Ferrus Manus - not to disparage the latter, but to rebuke assertions that the former is an idiot.

 

With that in mind, I don't have an issue with your second and third points.  You outline Ferrus Manus's motivations well and accurately.

 

Where your fourth point is concerned... Again, I don't disagree with the information you laid out, I just don't think it makes Ferrus's plan any better or worse.  Massacre does a good job of showcasing the various auxiliary assets, war machines, etc., that the Gorgon brought to the fight.  It's still a "straight up the middle" assault, though, and the scenario that ostensibly requires him to go that route is basically defined by plot armour.

[b1soul]

Guys. Havent we done this to death?

1. Neither was trying to kill the other.

2. Russ lost the fight.

3. Angron would have lost his life if Russ had chosen to let his marines do what he couldnt.

4. Russ would have lost his life if Angron had wanted to kill him.

5. Both lost, both claim to have won.

6. Angron is morally superior.

I'm totally down with this

"Neither really trying to kill the other" makes a lot more sense than "Russ wasn't trying but Angron was trying really hard"

"In the heat of battle, each was probably at times trying to kill the other" is also very plausible.

Emotions were running high, but I'm pretty sure both parties were aware that Primarch fratricide would be a heinous crime under the circumstances.

Heck, I could argue that Russ might've had less qualms about killing a brother Primarch as he supposedly had done it before.

I'll just put this here, then.

Your argument condensed to a single sentence is "Russ was holding back, but Angron wasn't".

All the while I've been pointing out to you that (1) Angron might've been holding back as well and that (2) Russ might have been less restrained than you're claiming

Furthermore, engaging the likes of Angron in potentially deadly combat only to fight with partial effort is either really stupid, really arrogant, or both.

Luckily for Russ, Angron actually did show some restraint when they fought. Luckily for Angron, Russ didn't order his men to open fire. I don't think for a second that this whole incident was a carefully orchestrated lesson by Russ. Things got out of hand and the Wolves claimed it as a "lesson" after the fact...whereas the World Eeaters congratulated themselves on a (maybe) higher killcount.

[b1soul]

I ask you to look at it exactly as Lorgar explained it.  There is no other way that Russ draws Angron away from his Legion and surround him with his own Legion if the fight had not gone as it did.  No way at all.  If Russ stands toe-to-toe with Angron, no point is made about what the Butchers Nails has done to the World Eaters. 

 

Russ pushed and pushed? Russ baited Angron?

 

You may wish to re-read it brother.

 

Lorgar is merely an in-universe character giving his opinion upon hearing an account of the event. 

 

On the contrary, if Russ had humbled Angron the way Angron actually humbled him in the duel, he could stand over a beaten Angron and say "look you fool...not a single World Eater is here to save you. I've beaten you and yet still my men are here to ensure that had I not, you'd still die to their guns" 

[Grimtooth]

Guys. Havent we done this to death?

1. Neither was trying to kill the other.

2. Russ lost the fight.

3. Angron would have lost his life if Russ had chosen to let his marines do what he couldnt.

4. Russ would have lost his life if Angron had wanted to kill him.

5. Both lost, both claim to have won.

6. Angron is morally superior.

I'm totally down with this

"Neither really trying to kill the other" makes a lot more sense than "Russ wasn't trying but Angron was trying really hard"

"In the heat of battle, each was probably at times trying to kill the other" is also very plausible.

Emotions were running high, but I'm pretty sure both parties were aware that Primarch fratricide would be a heinous crime under the circumstances.

Heck, I could argue that Russ might've had less qualms about killing a brother Primarch as he supposedly had done it before.

>I'll just put this here, then.

Your argument condensed to a single sentence is "Russ was holding back, but Angron wasn't".

All the while I've been pointing out to you that (1) Angron might've been holding back as well and that (2) Russ might have been less restrained than you're claiming

Furthermore, engaging the likes of Angron in potentially deadly combat only to fight with partial effort is either really stupid, really arrogant, or both.

Luckily for Russ, Angron actually did show some restraint when they fought. Luckily for Angron, Russ didn't order his men to open fire. I don't think for a second that this whole incident was a carefully orchestrated lesson by Russ. Things got out of hand and the Wolves claimed it as a "lesson" after the fact...whereas the World Eeaters congratulated themselves on a (maybe) higher killcount.

Would be concise if said lesson was not put into context by Lorgar. Lorgar even makes the point about the body count mattering as being arguable. It is one thing to have the conflict examined by individual readers with individual bias and/or opinions. But when an in-universe source, and a primarch no less, gives the perspective it weighs a little more heavily in terms of what was being done.

[b1soul]

Would be concise if said lesson was not put into context by Lorgar.  Lorgar even makes the point about the body count mattering as being arguable.  It is one thing to have the conflict examined by individual readers with individual bias and/or opinions.  But when an in-universe source, and a primarch no less, gives the perspective it weighs a little more heavily in terms of what was being done.

 

Even if that were the case, the fact remains that Angron certainly did not show signs of being 100% committed to killing Russ. If he had been 100% committed, I'm fairly certain the whole event would've taken a very tragic turn, with possibly 2 dead primarchs.  

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

Sorry, don't know how to break up your post like you did mine, so I'll do it manually.

 

"The error with that logic is that you assume Horus's Space Marines
would have perished at the same rate regardless of the numerical odds
involved.

 

By launching two assaults, one while outnumbered, Ferrus Manus simply
ensured that the first assaulting force was going to suffer
disproportionate and unnecessary losses."

 

Actually my assumption is that only a finite amount of Loyalists could've effectively fitted in the Combat zone, so attacking with all the Legions at once would narrow  each Legions avenue of attack, with the potential weakness in coordination I expressed in my last post. The vanguard was always going to suffer, and an argument can be made for letting some formations take all that damage, because it leaves the rest of the force fully intact, without any loss of materiel or command cohesion for the next attack, whereas all 7 attacking at once would likely resulted in all the Legions taking their losses is their elite, vanguard troops.

 

 

"Cycle after cycle of outnumbered elements attacking uphill against a
fortified opponent?  Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that the
loyalists would win, but at what cost?  Ferrus's initial assault, which
enjoyed better odds than a single legion attacking on its own, was
thought to have suffered around 40% casualties!  Continuing along those
lines, though with even fewer warriors would simply have ensured that
another legion or two would have been mauled to less than half their
original fighting strength."

 

Well, the extent to which the first wave was outnumbered has been shown quite well by Kol. Given the losses inflicted by the first wave, subsequent attacks would probably be facing a numerically inferior opponent, in damaged positions, with substantial amounts or their materiel expended or destroyed. So really, you would expect each successive assault to suffer a lower attrition rate.

 

Also as an aside, does it say 40% casualties, or 40% killed? Because that's a difference 40k writers often seem to overlook.

[Grimtooth]

 

I ask you to look at it exactly as Lorgar explained it.  There is no other way that Russ draws Angron away from his Legion and surround him with his own Legion if the fight had not gone as it did.  No way at all.  If Russ stands toe-to-toe with Angron, no point is made about what the Butchers Nails has done to the World Eaters. 

 

Russ pushed and pushed? Russ baited Angron?

 

You may wish to re-read it brother.

 

Lorgar is merely an in-universe character giving his opinion upon hearing an account of the event. 

 

On the contrary, if Russ had humbled Angron the way Angron actually humbled him in the duel, he could stand over a beaten Angron and say "look you fool...not a single World Eater is here to save you. I've beaten you and yet still my men are here to ensure that had I not, you'd still die to their guns" 

Except that doesn't prove a point to Angron.  Laying out Angron, in Angron's head, is just another "twist" to add to his back.  Angron cannot even spell humbling.  We see that with the conversation with Lorgar.  It is even said that when Lorgar explains it to him that he sees that "some cognitive switch had clicked" with Angron.  It even begins to anger Angron again and he reverts back to gladitorial form in his retort to it.

 

I mentioned it earlier, I place a bit more weight on the thoughts of a primarch then those of the readers in this case.  

[b1soul]

Except that doesn't prove a point to Angron.  Laying out Angron, in Angron's head, is just another "twist" to add to his back.  Angron cannot even spell humbling.  We see that with the conversation with Lorgar.  It is even said that when Lorgar explains it to him that he sees that "some cognitive switch had clicked" with Angron.  It even begins to anger Angron again and he reverts back to gladitorial form in his retort to it.

 

I fail to see how winning the duel would prevent the same point from being conveyed just as effectively. Angron respects strength of arms. If Russ beats Angron in a duel, I'd say Angron would be more inclined to respect anything Russ has to say. 

 

As it is, Russ loses to Angron and Angron has something to fall back on (I beat you in a duel...haha, I'm better).

 

If Russ beats Angron and says "You're screwed bro, your dudes aren't even here to help you"...Angron would have nothing to fall back on. No way to convince himself that he's somehow won. He'd at least realise that his men have completely abandoned him in his direst need.