Russ is on Terra?

[Grimtooth]

 

Except that doesn't prove a point to Angron.  Laying out Angron, in Angron's head, is just another "twist" to add to his back.  Angron cannot even spell humbling.  We see that with the conversation with Lorgar.  It is even said that when Lorgar explains it to him that he sees that "some cognitive switch had clicked" with Angron.  It even begins to anger Angron again and he reverts back to gladitorial form in his retort to it.

 

I fail to see how winning the duel would prevent the same point from being conveyed just as effectively. Angron respects strength of arms. If Russ beats Angron in a duel, I'd say Angron would be more inclined to respect anything Russ has to say. 

 

As it is, Russ loses to Angron and Angron has something to fall back on (I beat you in a duel...haha, I'm better).

 

If Russ beats Angron and says "You're screwed bro, your dudes aren't even here to help you"...Angron would have nothing to fall back on. No way to convince himself that he's somehow won. He'd at least realise that his men have completely abandoned him in his direst need.   

Angron doesn't even respect the Emperor that could snuff him out like a candle so how is a brother primarch going to humble him?  And a duel of arms is not the point of the exercise as explained by Russ and later on Lorgar.  The Emperor did not create the primarchs to engage in petty duels and feats of strength.  They are supposed to lead tactically and in the interests of the Imperium.  Showing explicitly what the Nails have done to the WE is the point of the exercise.  In reality, Angron is a lost cause with regard to the Nails, but his sons were not.

[GhostMalone]

Can we let the Russ angron debate die it's been going for a year

[b1soul]

Angron doesn't even respect the Emperor that could snuff him out like a candle so how is a brother primarch going to humble him?  

 

Because Russ wasn't the guy who teleported Angron away from his buddies when they needed him most?  Because the Emperor would snuff out Angron with his psychic might? 

 

Russ is a warrior in the same weight class as Angron. He doesn't ridiculously outclass Angron. If Russ beats Angron, that would be a situation where one warrior defeats another in a close fight. That's exactly how respect between warriors usually arises. You respect the other guy for fighting hard and facing down adversity...just like you were doing.

 

If the Emperor beats Angron, Angron would probably view it as a mighty tyrant picking on a far weaker foe.  

[Wade Garrett]

Here's a metaphor for why I think Russ's actions on Ghenna were a bad plan:

 

Let's say we have two boxers. One of them is a practitioner of boxing as a sweet science. He's got the footwork, the head movement, he can feint, he can work the body, he's got a straight jab so educated it can guest lecture at Harvard and can throw a cracking hook and uppercut with either arm. In short, he's a true Count of Monte Fisto.

 

This guy represents the Space Wolves.

 

Now let's look at boxer number two. Combinations? Defense? Ringcraft? Boxer Two ain't got no time for that! Every round of every fight in his career goes the exact same way:

 

Bell rings, he runs out of his corner with his head held high and throws wild overhand rights, and only rights, until the other guy falls over.

 

This guy represents the World Eaters under Angron.

 

Assuming Russ planned the Night of the Wolf from the get go, that's basically the slick technical boxer deciding to take on the brawler by racing him to the middle of ring and trading haymakers until somebody is kissing canvas.

 

Bad plan.

[Conn Eremon]

Your argument condensed to a single sentence is "Russ was holding back, but Angron wasn't".

 

All the while I've been pointing out to you that (1) Angron might've been holding back as well and that (2) Russ might have been less restrained than you're claiming

 

Furthermore, engaging the likes of Angron in potentially deadly combat only to fight with partial effort is either really stupid, really arrogant, or both.

 

Luckily for Russ, Angron actually did show some restraint when they fought. Luckily for Angron, Russ didn't order his men to open fire. I don't think for a second that this whole incident was a carefully orchestrated lesson by Russ. Things got out of hand and the Wolves claimed it as a "lesson" after the fact...whereas the World Eeaters congratulated themselves on a (maybe) higher killcount.

No. Not at all. "Fighting to prove a point" does not mean "partial effort." "Fighting to kill" does not mean "no restraint."

 

All you have been pointing out to me is that you like to keep saying I said things I didn't, while reiterating what I actually say as your own argument. Like how I never said the whole event was 'orchestrated.' Like how I said Russ set himself up to fail, and you proceeded to argue against it by showing how he set himself up to fail.

[Monstra Sumus]

I think the over arching thing people tend to leave out when approaching the Primarchs and their decisions is frankly the simplest. This is not a war fought by generals and the wholesome ideal of allies vs axis. This is a family fued, this is brother turning on brother, there is blood shed between siblings all in the eyes of an uncaring father. That is what affects decisions made, that is what leads to terrible mistakes. The Traitors are, by and large, committed to their cause in the eyes of the eldest, the most influential. Big brother says jump, most of them say how high? The loyal brothers, still stalwart in their upkeep of the family name are shocked by the heir to the family name spitting on everything and turning his back on them. There is a bond you have with your brothers that you don't have with your father. Those who looked up to Horus would naturally follow him, despite what the Emperor meant to them because Horus was there, he was the big brother, in the field with them, giving him what they wanted the most, attention. The Emperor was not. For some, they did not follow into Horus coup because they held the family above all and it cost them dearly. 

 

I grew up with three brothers and I've not always approached things in a rational and decidedly tactful manner. I understand the Gorgons push forward at all costs, I understand Russ' go for the throat despite the odds because I've felt those emotions, no matter what the situation is, there have been times where I've wanted nothing more than to clock my brothers in the mouth, the consequences be damned. 

 

Yes, they are generals of great renown, fighters of uncanny ability, but they are all still brothers and all still children in their unnurtured familial affections. For some, Horus was their father, or at least fulfilled that role. Younger siblings will follow blindly, others will not, throw that into a galaxy spanning civil war where thousands of worlds burn and billions die and you'll have some rather big mistakes. Stupid ones? No. Ones made in the spur of the moment because of emotional investment? Yes. 

 

Whether Russ just wanted a scrap with his brother because he was pissing him off or whether he was luring him into an elaborate trap to make him see the error of his ways is null. It's not that the nails were the defining factor in his derailment, it was probably that he followed Horus without remiss and systematically had his loyalty abused, that just cements a belief, whether it's the right one or not. 

It all comes down to one factor, the Emperor. Benevolent super-God or Tyrannical despot, it's no matter, if he'd spent more time with his children there would have been no war and humanity would be resplendent and his family would be intact. 

[Clone]

 

It all comes down to one factor, the Emperor. Benevolent super-God or Tyrannical despot, it's no matter, if he'd spent more time with his children there would have been no war and humanity would be resplendent and his family would be intact. 

+1

[daveNYC]

The actions at Istvaan V are pure plot armor.

 

1) The fact that they didn't nuke the entire site from orbit would make sense if it was one battlebarge.  In fact there was a fleet from the greater part of six legions.  If the orbital bombartment from six fleets of that size couldn't knock down the shields of a single fortress, then you have to wonder what pop-guns they're firing.  It's not like their target was the Imperial Palace, Horus' fortress had only been recenetly constructed, so it's not like it would have crazy layers of defense.

 

2) The battleplan involved landing three legions in an obvious killing field and sending them foot slogging straight ahead against four legions in prepared fortifications.  Even with the losses that the traitors suffered at Istvaan III, that's not exactly Sun-Tzu.

 

3) Deployment of the first and second waves.  The Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Night Lords are legions that would be best used to disrupt the enemy prior to the major attack, instead you get Raven Guard slogging up the right flank, and the Night Lords held back for the second wave.  A slightly less stupid plan would have involved those three being sent in earlier.  Landing far away from the main fortress and taking out the outlying missile batteries, sentry posts, maybe infiltrating the main fortress and trying to knock out the void shilelds, stuff like that.  They had six legions with a wide range of skillsets yet the implemented battleplan wasn't much more complicated than Hulk Smash.

 

Finally, even the basic premis of the battle was flawed.  The Primarch's are geniuses, rightt?  Even Angron, for all his issues is still a pretty sharp guy when he can hold it together.  Yet here we have Horus and his three allies, all four forces having taken heavy losses, holling up on a planet in a single fortress just waiting to be attacked by the full strength of five legions, with a heavy reinforcement from the Iron Hands.  If Horus is such a genius, why is he presenting such a tasty target and just waiting to be attacked by a force that outnumbers him 2:1 (at least)?  He doesn't even have his fleet in orbit to contest the landing or even provide an escape route if things go poorly.  Horus is there just waiting to be attacked by a hugely superior force, and none of the other Primachs think to ask why he would be doing such an obviously stupid thing.

[Stonerhino]

Here's a metaphor for why I think Russ's actions on Ghenna were a bad plan:

 

Let's say we have two boxers. One of them is a practitioner of boxing as a sweet science. He's got the footwork, the head movement, he can feint, he can work the body, he's got a straight jab so educated it can guest lecture at Harvard and can throw a cracking hook and uppercut with either arm. In short, he's a true Count of Monte Fisto.

 

This guy represents the Space Wolves.

 

Now let's look at boxer number two. Combinations? Defense? Ringcraft? Boxer Two ain't got no time for that! Every round of every fight in his career goes the exact same way:

 

Bell rings, he runs out of his corner with his head held high and throws wild overhand rights, and only rights, until the other guy falls over.

 

This guy represents the World Eaters under Angron.

 

Assuming Russ planned the Night of the Wolf from the get go, that's basically the slick technical boxer deciding to take on the brawler by racing him to the middle of ring and trading haymakers until somebody is kissing canvas.

 

Bad plan.

So Foreman beat Ali in 1974??? 

 

Wait no Ali beat Foreman by getting the crap kicked out of him untill Foreman was overstretched.  Then finished him.  I don't know about you but that sounds simular to what Russ did.  He took a beating from Angron untill Russ was in a posistion to beat Angron (With his Legion of course).  "Only one Legion is about to lose their Primarch" and all that.  But in support of your "Bad plan" post.  Everyone thought that Ali had a bad plan too.  At least untill he used that plan and won.

 

The problem with Night of the Wolf is that there is not a believable scenario for Russ to win and teach his leason.  And before you start in with "Of why couldn't Russ beat Angron and Angron just admit that Russ was Better".  If you honestly believe that Angron would not keep fighting untill he was either dead or near enough to death that he could no longer fight.  Then you really misunderstand Angron.

 

Why was Russ able to clawl away from Angron.  Because Angron didn't go after him.  He went to get an axe instead.  Ya that sounds like someone who is not going for the kill.

 

 

Nothing irritated him [Angron] more than polite submission. Only two things should prostrate themselves: frightened animals and dying men. Anything else was surrender, and no filthier word existed in any human tongue.

 

When he [Angron] opened his eyes, confronted by the utter blackness of his surroundings, he screamed through a mouthful of bloody froth and started digging. No surrender. No submission.

A few quotes from betrayer.  Then reread Angron's interaction with the Communion.  It paints a very vivid picture of a man who would rather die then surrender or even admit he had any weakness at all. 

 

[Vesper]

 

He doesn't even have his fleet in orbit to contest the landing or even provide an escape route if things go poorly.  Horus is there just waiting to be attacked by a hugely superior force, and none of the other Primachs think to ask why he would be doing such an obviously stupid thing.

Indeed. Even the Primarchs, who are supposed to know him quite well, just don't even take into account they're about to face the greatest of them.

[Wade Garrett]

So Foreman beat Ali in 1974???

 

Wait no Ali beat Foreman by getting the crap kicked out of him untill Foreman was overstretched. Then finished him. I don't know about you but that sounds simular to what Russ did. He took a beating from Angron untill Russ was in a posistion to beat Angron (With his Legion of course). "Only one Legion is about to lose their Primarch" and all that. But in support of your "Bad plan" post. Everyone thought that Ali had a bad plan too. At least untill he used that plan and won.

 

Ali's coach Angelo Dundee thought it was a bad plan even after Cassius Clay picked up the "W" with it.

 

And if you look at the quality of life Ali had after he retired, compared to his contemporaries like George Foreman or Smoking Joe, it's hard to disagree with Mr. Dundee that deliberately absorbing round after round of heavy shots from the biggest punchers in the heavyweight division was NOT a good idea.

 

The same thing with Ghenna. I'm not talking about Russ himself, I'm talking about the thousands of Wolves who died because their gene sire decided to take on the XII in the one aspect of warfare where the World Eaters stand the best chance of beating them: a head to head knock down drag out brawl.

 

If Russ set the whole thing deliberately that puts him up with Perturabo, Fulgrim, and Angron himself in terms of "How many of my sons lives can I :cuss away pointlessly today?"

[Sanct]

 

 

He doesn't even have his fleet in orbit to contest the landing or even provide an escape route if things go poorly.  Horus is there just waiting to be attacked by a hugely superior force, and none of the other Primachs think to ask why he would be doing such an obviously stupid thing.

Indeed. Even the Primarchs, who are supposed to know him quite well, just don't even take into account they're about to face the greatest of them.

 

I can see it now.

 

"Sir. They are static and entrenched. What should we do?"

"Hold position and wait"

"They have no orbital support and with our reinforcements moments away we will outnumber them 7 fresh legions to 4 bloodied ones."

"Attack!"

"But they have Horus!"

"Then obviously we retreat!"

"But The Emperor sent us to bring the traitors down"

"Errrrr"

 

Yeeessss.

[Vesper]

"Sire, Horus' forces appear to be entrenched. He doesn't seem to want to go anywhere.

- Well, that's great news.

- The fleets of the traitors are nowhere to be found... Should we expect an ambush of some sort ?

- Nah, Horus ain't smart enough to use Alpharius' tricks. Their fleet is probably somewhere, racing around systems to see who's the fastest of them all.

- Makes perfect sense, sire, yet, and I speak for all the men under my orders, shouldn't we be careful ? After all, it's none other than the Warmaster we're about to face...

- No. We'll land on that rock and throw ourselves at their defenses. It's a tactic I learned from the Orks. Horus is so totally screwed.

- But, and our reinforcements ?

- Reinforcing is for :cuss. Let's rock !"

The last words of Ferrus Manus to his trusted first captain Jabady Jab.

[daveNYC]

Nobody who is rational starts a war they think they're going to lose.  Is Horus irrational, or does he think he's going to win.  And if he thinks he's going to win, what does he know that the loyalists don't, because on the face of it, it looks like Horus is toast.

[Stonerhino]

So Foreman beat Ali in 1974???

Wait no Ali beat Foreman by getting the crap kicked out of him untill Foreman was overstretched. Then finished him. I don't know about you but that sounds simular to what Russ did. He took a beating from Angron untill Russ was in a posistion to beat Angron (With his Legion of course). "Only one Legion is about to lose their Primarch" and all that. But in support of your "Bad plan" post. Everyone thought that Ali had a bad plan too. At least untill he used that plan and won.

Ali's coach Angelo Dundee thought it was a bad plan even after Cassius Clay picked up the "W" with it.

And if you look at the quality of life Ali had after he retired, compared to his contemporaries like George Foreman or Smoking Joe, it's hard to disagree with Mr. Dundee that deliberately absorbing round after round of heavy shots from the biggest punchers in the heavyweight division was NOT a good idea.

The same thing with Ghenna. I'm not talking about Russ himself, I'm talking about the thousands of Wolves who died because their gene sire decided to take on the XII in the one aspect of warfare where the World Eaters stand the best chance of beating them: a head to head knock down drag out brawl.

If Russ set the whole thing deliberately that puts him up with Perturabo, Fulgrim, and Angron himself in terms of "How many of my sons lives can I away pointlessly today?"

The lives where only "Thrown away" because the leson failed. If Angron would have seen what Russ and later Lorgar wanted him to see. Then those few thousand SWs would have been responcible for returning a Legion to its former glory. Or in others words sacraficing a few thousand to gain 100,000+. True those 100k+ would have been there anyways but only as a broken parady of themselves. Then best case would be to have Angron fully restored to a pre-nails mindset. One fully function Primarch is worth the one time loss of all those lives.

You say "Bad plan" I say necessity. The only way to even begin to reach Angron's broken mind. Is to show him just how broken he is and what he has done to his Legion. To bad for the Imperium that Angron was to thick headed to reconize it then. Even after Lorgar points it out to him 100 years later. He has a hard time understanding.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I was avoiding this bullcrap but I feel the need to point out the flaw in that logic.

 

If Russ planned to get beaten to teach a lesson, then losing those lives was a part of that plan as the World Eaters attacked alongside Angron. It was after the beating that the fighting stopped. So either the lives lost are a part of the plan, or the plan never included taking a beating. Not both.

[RapatoR]

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

[Kol Saresk]

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

Trust me, I agree. I think Russ brought his Legion along as a show of force.

 

Russ: "Fear me, I have Astartes."

Angron: "Big deal. Taste my boot."

[ShadowMaster]

Corax was supposed to go to Terra, leave and rebuild his Legion. So far, the pnly discrepancy is that instead of badass mutant-clones, we get mutants.

 

Russ was supposed to get stuck in the Eastern Fringe, join up with the Lion and then try to make it to Terra and fail and become guilt-ridden over it. Not go to Terra when the Heresy is halfway over and then leave evause he was bored and then feel guilt-ridden that he couldn't make it back time while completely ignoring the fact THAT HE WAS THERE AND HE CHOSE TO LEAVE.

 

Its like in an effort to tone down the VI Legion to equalize its standing with the others, there is an effort to make Russ look mentally incompetent.

 

That last line was extremely spot on. Well said.

[Stonerhino]

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

 

While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance.~ Lorgar in Betrayer

So you are telling me that the SWs outmanoeuved the WE this bad as a happy accident.  That there was no planning beyond "Lets go confront Angron and see were it goes". 

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

[daveNYC]

Or that the World Eaters had no intention of trying to break through the Wolves surrounding Angron and instead were focused solely on slicing and dicing whichever Space Wolf was closest, completely oblivious that a sub-group of the Wolves had surrounded both primarchs and had drawn a bead on Angron.

 

Anyone else notice that Lorgar's example of brilliant outmanouvering involved the Wolves forming a circular firing squad? 

[Scribe]

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

 

Not force back at all, threw themselves in the way of while Angron pushed Russ back and beat him into the ground. Yes.

 

| - - |

| . . |

| - - |

 

- | |

| | . . 

- | |

 

Its not really that difficult to imagine.

[Emperor's Scourge]

 

On a slight tangent, apologies for probably treading over old ground, but could someone explain to a relative B&C newbie why there's such vitriol directed to the Sws.

 

Pretty simple. Jealousy. One author said they were special and every other legion player has spent their time since coming up with reasons to say they're not.

 

Pretty sad that some people have invested so much of their egos into this IMO.

[Scribe]

Incorrect completely.

 

A book was written that mistakenly placed them above all other legions. This view was supported by several characters both within, and outside the Legion.

 

This book also placed the Legion above other legions, in areas they where known in the canon to be paragons for, to the point where ADB tried to save the whole situation by writing up some fluff, used in Betrayer even, to de-escalate the situation.

 

This entire world view was then giving form by calling the Wolves the 'Executioners'.

 

This meme, as shallow and worthless as it is, has since been parroted down the rest of the series, removing it from 'maybe just some characters in one book' to an actual thing. The comical watch packs is another aspect of this, serving now as a running joke.

 

Hopefully one day an author sets it all straight, because despite ADB's efforts, he's only one man damn it, and the rest of the team just isnt pulling their weight on this one.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

On a slight tangent, apologies for probably treading over old ground, but could someone explain to a relative B&C newbie why there's such vitriol directed to the Sws.

 

Pretty simple. Jealousy. One author said they were special and every other legion player has spent their time since coming up with reasons to say they're not.

 

Pretty sad that some people have invested so much of their egos into this IMO.

Not entirely true. When it first happened, a few people cared, but not much. Then some of the more.............boisterous SW fans took the fact of the executioner schtick being a "be all, end all" to every debate and turning those debates into arguments. So, instead of being an "eh" detail, it became an "I'm rubbing in your face" schtick and that resulted in resentment being bred. So to this day, most people try to avoid discussing the Wolves because it tends to attract both parties which usually leads down the exact road this topic took. So............... [sarcasm]yay[/sarcasm].