Russ is on Terra?

[Phoebus]

Sorry, don't know how to break up your post like you did mine, so I'll do it manually.

 

Don't sweat it!  It was a giant pain figuring it out.  :D

 

Actually my assumption is that only a finite amount of Loyalists could've effectively fitted in the Combat zone, so attacking with all the Legions at once would narrow  each Legions avenue of attack, with the potential weakness in coordination I expressed in my last post. The vanguard was always going to suffer, and an argument can be made for letting some formations take all that damage, because it leaves the rest of the force fully intact, without any loss of materiel or command cohesion for the next attack, whereas all 7 attacking at once would likely resulted in all the Legions taking their losses is their elite, vanguard troops.

 

On the one hand, Fulgrim and Massacre both describe the corridor that Ferrus Manus had to advance his forces through as being roughly 20km wide.  That is a very constricting area.  The issue I have is that it is presented as a challenge precisely because the author(s) insisted on depicting the Legiones Astartes as fighting in a sort of Napoleonic infantry formation:  that they have to maintain a certain frontage for the sake of firepower, and enough depth for their charges to achieve penetration.  That should not be the case, though.  

 

Why would the warriors of the far future fight that way?  Ironically, on the occasion when the "big guns" of the Legiones Astartes do get a mention, they have an effect that undermines the idea that Ferrus Manus had to charge his legion into the face of the enemy.  It's the artillery that drives off Angron and Mortarion in Fulgrim, and that enables the loyalist legions to extricate themselves in Massacre.  Unfortunately, the technology that informs this setting is treated as an afterthought.  I would guess this is because the author(s) are more concerned with the battles being dramatic and defined by heroic combat.  Heroic combat and the technology of M41 are not mutually exclusive, though.

 

And there are so many other cans of worms battles like these expose.  Like, how is it that orbital barrages can't go through the void shields... but artillery shells, tank rounds, and energy weapons are able to do so?  How is it that and drop pods and gunships can ignore void shields in space... but are unable to do so while going at far slower speeds in atmosphere?  So much of this comes down to author's prerogative.  Don't get me wrong, authors should have that prerogative - I just think it's unfortunate that in many cases they do so to insert a "because", ignore inconsistencies in the setting, or make the battle they're writing simpler.

 

Well, the extent to which the first wave was outnumbered has been shown quite well by Kol.

 

And by me, I hope.  I don't know if you missed it, but I cited numbers straight out of Betrayal and Massacre.  Admittedly, I goofed on the Raven Guard.  :)

 

Given the losses inflicted by the first wave, subsequent attacks would probably be facing a numerically inferior opponent, in damaged positions, with substantial amounts or their materiel expended or destroyed. So really, you would expect each successive assault to suffer a lower attrition rate.

 

I'm not sure about that.  Even using the worst-case scenario for the traitors (see below), you're still talking about roughly 1-1 odds, with the loyalists attacking uphill.  More importantly, the casualties the traitors suffered were on the most vulnerable terrain they possessed:  their improvised fortifications and trench systems between their fortress and the drop sites.  The loyalists never even got to the fortress that was seemingly impregnable against orbital assault.  And the traitors still have Titan superiority, which will only become more devastating in that (hypothetical) phase of the battle.

 

Also as an aside, does it say 40% casualties, or 40% killed? Because that's a difference 40k writers often seem to overlook.

 

It's casualties.  :)

 

What I was going to offer above is that the casualties Ferrus Manus suffered were going to cost him more than those of the traitors.  Unless his casualties amounted to "combat effective" or "walking wounded", they're effectively dead (in the sense that they can't be used in battle).  By contrast, the traitors could place even non-ambulatory casualties capable of firing weapons at static fighting positions.  And let's face it, until the loyalists made their way back to the traitor lines, almost all of the traitor positions would be static.

[Kol Saresk]

Why do they fight with swords and axes and have a preference for melee?

[Leif Bearclaw]

On the one hand, Fulgrim and Massacre both describe the corridor that Ferrus Manus had to advance his forces through as being roughly 20km wide. That is a very constricting area. The issue I have is that it is presented as a challenge precisely because the author(s) insisted on depicting the Legiones Astartes as fighting in a sort of Napoleonic infantry formation: that they have to maintain a certain frontage for the sake of firepower, and enough depth for their charges to achieve penetration. That should not be the case, though.

Why would the warriors of the far future fight that way? Ironically, on the occasion when the "big guns" of the Legiones Astartes do get a mention, they have an effect that undermines the idea that Ferrus Manus had to charge his legion into the face of the enemy. It's the artillery that drives off Angron and Mortarion in Fulgrim, and that enables the loyalist legions to extricate themselves in Massacre. Unfortunately, the technology that informs this setting is treated as an afterthought. I would guess this is because the author(s) are more concerned with the battles being dramatic and defined by heroic combat. Heroic combat and the technology of M41 are not mutually exclusive, though.

And there are so many other cans of worms battles like these expose. Like, how is it that orbital barrages can't go through the void shields... but artillery shells, tank rounds, and energy weapons are able to do so? How is it that and drop pods and gunships can ignore void shields in space... but are unable to do so while going at far slower speeds in atmosphere? So much of this comes down to author's prerogative. Don't get me wrong, authors should have that prerogative - I just think it's unfortunate that in many cases they do so to insert a "because", ignore inconsistencies in the setting, or make the battle they're writing simpler.

And here we have the intrinsic paradox of all 30/40k. It really wants to be Napoleonic era war, with direct influence on the battle by generals, use of melee weaponry and dramatic charges, because that was a 'heroic' age of war that readily lends itself to stories, and swords are pretty boss. However, they also want in corporate cool modern/sci fi things, like tanks, planes and space craft. The 'issue' being that these coll aspects of modernity/future completely break the style of warfare they really want to show. So we have to accept these intrinsic logical flaws with the setting, like how voids negate void assets, but are vulnerable to ground fire, or that the Tyranids are somehow a military threat.

So really we can't pick too deep, because then everything falls apart. Shame the picking apart is such fun .

[Kol Saresk]

But that's the allure. Its an universe in which evil always wins(whether it be the lesser or cooler), an we get steampunk, slapped with fantasy, sprinkled with magic, blended with sci-fi, baked with space opera and mixed with medieval. I'm sure there's more but I ran out of cooking analogies. Anyway, its like a devil's food chocolate caked with dark chocolate icing and chocolate chips sprinkled over it: awesome.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Incorrect completely.

 

A book was written that mistakenly placed them above all other legions. This view was supported by several characters both within, and outside the Legion.

 

This book also placed the Legion above other legions, in areas they where known in the canon to be paragons for, to the point where ADB tried to save the whole situation by writing up some fluff, used in Betrayer even, to de-escalate the situation.

 

This entire world view was then giving form by calling the Wolves the 'Executioners'.

 

This meme, as shallow and worthless as it is, has since been parroted down the rest of the series, removing it from 'maybe just some characters in one book' to an actual thing. The comical watch packs is another aspect of this, serving now as a running joke.

 

Hopefully one day an author sets it all straight, because despite ADB's efforts, he's only one man damn it, and the rest of the team just isnt pulling their weight on this one.

So...one author...in a book written specifically for fans of the SWs...implies that their nature makes them stand out among the Legions. This then spirals out into dozens of arguments that are still going on today. Not to mention a large number of fans from other Legions specifically talking :cuss about the SWs every chance they get. When all they really had to do is put things into perspective, shrug their shoulders, and get on with their own armies.

 

That's not jealousy or resentment? Its "setting the record straight"? Riiiight. I guess all the talking you've done about the WEs/Angron being better than the SWs/Russ was just you altruistically attempting to put things in perspective?

 

I understand that its fun to come here and debate the ins and outs of the Heresy. Totally cool. That's not the issue I'm attempting to raise here though.

 

 

I was wondering...could you please point out to me the book that claims its titular Legion is a complete pushover and lacks any semblance of uniqueness? I'd love to read it.

 

This is going to come as a shock...but I love the VIth. I hated Prospero Burns. I'm fine with the SWs being the same as every other Astartes. I hope this confession leads to you and your like minded peers to get up off the SWs nuts.

[Phoebus]

Or that the World Eaters had no intention of trying to break through the Wolves surrounding Angron and instead were focused solely on slicing and dicing whichever Space Wolf was closest, completely oblivious that a sub-group of the Wolves had surrounded both primarchs and had drawn a bead on Angron.

 

Anyone else notice that Lorgar's example of brilliant outmanouvering involved the Wolves forming a circular firing squad? 

 

You're in good company, given that the author of the book in which this episode takes place basically expressed the same opinion.  :)

 

Incorrect completely.

 

A book was written that mistakenly placed them above all other legions. This view was supported by several characters both within, and outside the Legion.

 

This book also placed the Legion above other legions, in areas they where known in the canon to be paragons for, to the point where ADB tried to save the whole situation by writing up some fluff, used in Betrayer even, to de-escalate the situation.

 

This entire world view was then giving form by calling the Wolves the 'Executioners'.

 

This meme, as shallow and worthless as it is, has since been parroted down the rest of the series, removing it from 'maybe just some characters in one book' to an actual thing. The comical watch packs is another aspect of this, serving now as a running joke.

 

Hopefully one day an author sets it all straight, because despite ADB's efforts, he's only one man damn it, and the rest of the team just isnt pulling their weight on this one.

 

I think that there is a great deal of hyperbole contained in this post.  Did certain posters immaturely fall back on the Executioner meme as a matter of course and thus frustrate discussion and debate on these (and other) forums?  Yeah.  Has the "other side" in this debate made mountains out of the molehills found in Prospero Burns?  Also yes.

 

Prospero Burns offers an interesting mixture of fact and opinion, both presented from the perspective of the Space Wolves.  I honestly don't see how anything shown in that novel is controversial unless the reader conflates the opinions presented in it with the facts.

 

(Fact:  the Vlka Fenryka consider themselves the Emperor's Executioners.  Fact:  the Vlka Fenryka are, indeed, given missions that involve "the ultimate sanction".  Opinion:  Longfang's estimation of the Space Wolves' unmatched loyalty.  Opinion:  Hawser's estimation that the Vlka Fenryka are “the most efficient and ruthless killing machine in the entire arsenal of the Imperium”.  Opinion:  any opinion, in any novel, wherein any character professes something subjective like, "We are the best at X", or "They are the best at Y".)

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said, at this point its people on both sides being ridiculous and continually derailing topics.

[Phoebus]

Why do they fight with swords and axes and have a preference for melee?

That's the thing, Kol. As I said earlier, there is certainly room for anachronism in this setting because in many instances the technology allows for it. Again, the mobility (drop pods, teleportation, jump packs, etc.) and the protection (power armour, Tactical Dreadnought Armour, etc.) afforded to Space Marines makes melee combat not just possible but viable. Quite literally, the power sword is viable precisely because power armour kicks ass, That's a win-win. By contrast, heroic combat is made possible in Fulgrim in large part because battle barges and all the cool artillery pieces Forge World released suck at what they do. That's a win (heroic combat) that's contingent on a loss (dumbing down something that should also be cool).

I'm not asking for the authors to eliminate anachronism. I want them to put more effort in making it plausible within the setting. I would rather we see less instances of plot armour and all the cool things that Forge World and Games Workshop put out being treated as afterthoughts.

And here we have the intrinsic paradox of all 30/40k. It really wants to be Napoleonic era war, with direct influence on the battle by generals, use of melee weaponry and dramatic charges, because that was a 'heroic' age of war that readily lends itself to stories, and swords are pretty boss. However, they also want in corporate cool modern/sci fi things, like tanks, planes and space craft. The 'issue' being that these coll aspects of modernity/future completely break the style of warfare they really want to show. So we have to accept these intrinsic logical flaws with the setting, like how voids negate void assets, but are vulnerable to ground fire, or that the Tyranids are somehow a military threat.

So really we can't pick too deep, because then everything falls apart. Shame the picking apart is such fun .

That's the thing, it only falls apart if you try to keep everything together via plot armour. I categorically disagree with the idea that high technology and dramatic charges, heroic combat, etc., are mutually exclusive. I have no doubt whatsoever that they can co-exist. :)

[Leif Bearclaw]

But that's the allure. Its an universe in which evil always wins(whether it be the lesser or cooler), an we get steampunk, slapped with fantasy, sprinkled with magic, blended with sci-fi, baked with space opera and mixed with medieval. I'm sure there's more but I ran out of cooking analogies. Anyway, its like a devil's food chocolate caked with dark chocolate icing and chocolate chips sprinkled over it: awesome.

Oh absolutely, I didn't mean it as any great criticism of the setting, I've been submerged in it too long for that , only that it's a bit of a shame when my natural predilection for over thinking things and armchair generalship leaves me stuck looking at the unavoidable holes where the setting clashes with reality.

I can't shake the feeling of deja vu that we've had this exchange before...

[Scribe]

 

Incorrect completely.

 

A book was written that mistakenly placed them above all other legions. This view was supported by several characters both within, and outside the Legion.

 

This book also placed the Legion above other legions, in areas they where known in the canon to be paragons for, to the point where ADB tried to save the whole situation by writing up some fluff, used in Betrayer even, to de-escalate the situation.

 

This entire world view was then giving form by calling the Wolves the 'Executioners'.

 

This meme, as shallow and worthless as it is, has since been parroted down the rest of the series, removing it from 'maybe just some characters in one book' to an actual thing. The comical watch packs is another aspect of this, serving now as a running joke.

 

Hopefully one day an author sets it all straight, because despite ADB's efforts, he's only one man damn it, and the rest of the team just isnt pulling their weight on this one.

So...one author...in a book written specifically for fans of the SWs...implies that their nature makes them stand out among the Legions. This then spirals out into dozens of arguments that are still going on today. Not to mention a large number of fans from other Legions specifically talking :cuss about the SWs every chance they get. When all they really had to do is put things into perspective, shrug their shoulders, and get on with their own armies.

 

That's not jealousy or resentment? Its "setting the record straight"? Riiiight. I guess all the talking you've done about the WEs/Angron being better than the SWs/Russ was just you altruistically attempting to put things in perspective?

 

I understand that its fun to come here and debate the ins and outs of the Heresy. Totally cool. That's not the issue I'm attempting to raise here though.

 

 

I was wondering...could you please point out to me the book that claims its titular Legion is a complete pushover and lacks any semblance of uniqueness? I'd love to read it.

 

This is going to come as a shock...but I love the VIth. I hated Prospero Burns. I'm fine with the SWs being the same as every other Astartes. I hope this confession leads to you and your like minded peers to get up off the SWs nuts.

 

I make no claims of innocence. I havent said the WE are better than the Wolves, I would argue the WE killed more, but thats supported by the text. I would argue Angron also bloodied Russ up, again, supported by the text.

 

I make no claims of other books painting 'their' legion as a pushover. Until ADB writes one on the Night Lords I suppose. :p

 

I will however say that there are books that do an infinitly better job of setting the Legion within into the setting, and balancing them against the rest, instead of trying to elevate one above the others in terms of killing :cuss, which is the entire rub. Thats not 'uniqueness'.

 

The legions exist to do what? End things. If you have one legion that is better than the rest at ending things, that legion is the de facto 'best' legion.

 

The issue is not that the wolves claimed it. If it had been brought up ONCE and never ever ever mentioned again, you wouldnt see this come up, but that wasnt enough was it?

 

We see it in Fear to Tread. Though Swallow gave a nice amount of fan service in that one. Thanks Amit.

We see it in Betrayer, but ADB rightfully, artfully, put it into balance by throwing in some ambiguity.

We see it in Vengeful Spirit, with the Space Wolf on the kill team. No balance however in that one.

We see it in Unremembered Empire, comically so with the 'wolves as loyal dogs' played up excessively to the point of it being a tongue in cheek joke.

 

I cant remember what else its been in, but its threaded its way down the series when its inception itself was flawed.

 

ALL wolves consider themselves the exectioner. All wolves think they alone are sanctioned and entitled and capable to do so. Its asinine 

 

--

 

Now I had this convo with Cormac and his angle of PB being a book set with a very shaded perspective is fine. I get that, however you shouldnt write a book that is part of an overwhelmingly central series, that is intended to be within a framework, unless you pay  the rest of the setting some respect.

 

You shouldnt write a book for a subset of the setting, you should write a book for the setting.

 

Thats my issue with this executioner :cuss. It paid zero respect to the rest of the setting and the other themes and tropes for the legions it stomped on.

[A D-B]

Or that the World Eaters had no intention of trying to break through the Wolves surrounding Angron and instead were focused solely on slicing and dicing whichever Space Wolf was closest, completely oblivious that a sub-group of the Wolves had surrounded both primarchs and had drawn a bead on Angron.

Anyone else notice that Lorgar's example of brilliant outmanouvering involved the Wolves forming a circular firing squad?

You're in good company, given that the author of the book in which this episode takes place basically expressed the same opinion.

>>>>Incorrect completely.

A book was written that mistakenly placed them above all other legions. This view was supported by several characters both within, and outside the Legion.

This book also placed the Legion above other legions, in areas they where known in the canon to be paragons for, to the point where ADB tried to save the whole situation by writing up some fluff, used in Betrayer even, to de-escalate the situation.

This entire world view was then giving form by calling the Wolves the 'Executioners'.

This meme, as shallow and worthless as it is, has since been parroted down the rest of the series, removing it from 'maybe just some characters in one book' to an actual thing. The comical watch packs is another aspect of this, serving now as a running joke.

Hopefully one day an author sets it all straight, because despite ADB's efforts, he's only one man damn it, and the rest of the team just isnt pulling their weight on this one.

I think that there is a great deal of hyperbole contained in this post. Did certain posters immaturely fall back on the Executioner meme as a matter of course and thus frustrate discussion and debate on these (and other) forums? Yeah. Has the "other side" in this debate made mountains out of the molehills found in Prospero Burns? Also yes.

Prospero Burns offers an interesting mixture of fact and opinion, both presented from the perspective of the Space Wolves. I honestly don't see how anything shown in that novel is controversial unless the reader conflates the opinions presented in it with the facts.

(Fact: the Vlka Fenryka consider themselves the Emperor's Executioners. Fact: the Vlka Fenryka are, indeed, given missions that involve "the ultimate sanction". Opinion: Longfang's estimation of the Space Wolves' unmatched loyalty. Opinion: Hawser's estimation that the Vlka Fenryka are “the most efficient and ruthless killing machine in the entire arsenal of the Imperium”. Opinion: any opinion, in any novel, wherein any character professes something subjective like, "We are the best at X", or "They are the best at Y".)

All true. But on a general note, rather than a direct reply to you, dude - remember, a lot of the "lively debate" came from Dan saying in the trailer that the Space Wolves were allowed to exist "to take down other Legions", and a lot of the allusions in Prospero Burns (and a couple of other novels) were that the Wolves had taken out the Lost Legions. Add those pretty heavy-duty claims to the opinions voiced in PB (constant "We are the best" repetitions that no other Legions have made, ever, plus the opinions of practically every non-Wolf character they meet in the book who offers an opinion on the Wolves) and that's where the issue came from. People straight-up believed it all in context, whereas a few mentions in PB would've just been considered in-universe opinion.

For the record, the Night of the Wolf wasn't a frivolous fix, purely for that. It'd crush me if anyone assumed I was that petty. Sure, it balanced the idea that the Wolves were "better", but it did way more than that. It showed Lorgar and Angron's inability to relate to each other a lot of the time. It showed the degradation of the World Eaters once they were given the Nails. It showed that Russ gave enough of a damn to try to beat some sense into his wayward brother. It showed just how dangerous Angron is, and how his twisted sense of honour works. It showed how an 'undamaged' Legion fights compared to a damaged one, and the power of brotherhood and loyalty over personal glory. It showed how a tide of World Eaters can be super-dangerous and unstoppable, but pack tactics and loyalty to your kin means you win the war even if you're losing the battle. It showed the the Nails overcome any hesitation at all in regards to the ultimate sin of firing on other Space Marines. That's how severely they affect the brain, let alone the fact the entire Legion couldn't have cared less about its primarch.

It cast doubts about the Executioner thing while kinda confirming it, as Russ acted like it was all good, and Angron suggested Russ had no mandate to be acting as he was. They could both be right or wrong. Both were possible. That's sort of how interactions between emotionally-stretched brothers tends to go. It also offered up questions about who won, what their motivations were, and so on, which are conversations and debates you get over any decent set of characters. Lorgar sure thinks X, but still. For all me and you know, Angron could've still won in the right set of circumstances, or Russ might've actually managed to beat some sense into him. Lots of possibilities, though several (like those last two) are unlikely.

And it also dealt with the fact that half of the series had said "Space Marine against Space Marine is unthinkable" while the other half had alluded to the Space Wolves fighting Space Marines before. As that categorically wasn't the Lost Legions, it had to be someone. The Night Lords fled censure, and the Word Bearers were censured by the Emperor already. It felt right, and made for some good narrative, and some awesome discussions since.

Overall, this situation isn't as simple or as silly as "jealousy", and as misunderstandings go, it's an easy one to make. We can say people are being hard against Space Wolf fans now just as we can say that a lot of Space Wolf fans took this stuff way too literally way back when, but it comes down to all of us sucking up the focus and maturity not to sling insults or make strawmen.

[Vesper]

While we're deep into off topic territory, I'd like to say I have an insider in BL.

He assures me that they plan on retconing the final confrontation between Horus and his father. And apparently, it's the big kind of retcon, like the Lucius one (they thought about making Sigismund as crappy as Lucius, for good mesure, but they finally chose not to). So yeah, huge spoilers :

 

Horus will not lower the shields of the Vengeful Spirit because he's out of time. Instead he'll allow the Emperor to teleport aboard solely to show that he's good sport. That's also the reason why he'll play this song in the whole ship when they'll finally clash swords.

 

What was the original topic already ? Executioner talk ?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But that's the allure. Its an universe in which evil always wins(whether it be the lesser or cooler), an we get steampunk, slapped with fantasy, sprinkled with magic, blended with sci-fi, baked with space opera and mixed with medieval. I'm sure there's more but I ran out of cooking analogies. Anyway, its like a devil's food chocolate caked with dark chocolate icing and chocolate chips sprinkled over it: awesome.

Oh absolutely, I didn't mean it as any great criticism of the setting, I've been submerged in it too long for that:wink: , only that it's a bit of a shame when my natural predilection for over thinking things and armchair generalship leaves me stuck looking at the unavoidable holes where the setting clashes with reality.

 

I can't shake the feeling of deja vu that we've had this exchange before...

 

 

It's a possibility. I do believe that I've said more than once that when I lose myself in a fantasy world, the part of me that'd normally go "That doesn't fit with my worldview" takes a backseat and I don't really remember who all I say it too.

[Scribe]

 

 

The Night of the Wolf wasn't a frivolous fix, purely for that. It galls me to think people would assume I was that petty. Sure, it balanced the idea that the Wolves were "better", but it did way more than that. It showed Lorgar and Angron's inability to relate to each other a lot of the time. It showed the degradation of the World Eaters once they were given the Nails. It showed that Russ gave enough of a damn to try to beat some sense into his wayward brother. It showed just how dangerous Angron is, and how his twisted sense of honour works. It showed how an 'undamaged' Legion fights compared to a damaged one, and the power of brotherhood and loyalty over personal glory. It showed how a tide of World Eaters can be super-dangerous and unstoppable, but pack tactics and loyalty to your kin means you win the war even if you're losing the battle. It cast doubts about the Executioner thing while kinda confirming it, as Russ acted like it was all good, and Angron suggested Russ had no mandate to be acting as he was. They could both be right or wrong. Both were possible. That's sort of how interactions between emotionally-stretched brothers tends to go.

 

I hope thats not how I come across when I mention your work in this context. I realize far more was going on than offering a counter point to 'executioners'. 

[A D-B]

 

 

 

The Night of the Wolf wasn't a frivolous fix, purely for that. It galls me to think people would assume I was that petty. Sure, it balanced the idea that the Wolves were "better", but it did way more than that. It showed Lorgar and Angron's inability to relate to each other a lot of the time. It showed the degradation of the World Eaters once they were given the Nails. It showed that Russ gave enough of a damn to try to beat some sense into his wayward brother. It showed just how dangerous Angron is, and how his twisted sense of honour works. It showed how an 'undamaged' Legion fights compared to a damaged one, and the power of brotherhood and loyalty over personal glory. It showed how a tide of World Eaters can be super-dangerous and unstoppable, but pack tactics and loyalty to your kin means you win the war even if you're losing the battle. It cast doubts about the Executioner thing while kinda confirming it, as Russ acted like it was all good, and Angron suggested Russ had no mandate to be acting as he was. They could both be right or wrong. Both were possible. That's sort of how interactions between emotionally-stretched brothers tends to go.

 

I hope thats not how I come across when I mention your work in this context. I realize far more was going on than offering a counter point to 'executioners'. 

 

No, no, not at all, Scribe. Sorry, I was meta-replying. Will edit it in.

[Wade Garrett]

I would like to say that The First Heretic opens with Guilliman, Malcador, and the Emperor telling the Word Bearers how much they suck, gives us a middle section of a lone Custodian hacking down half the Legion's high command before they can pull weapons, and finishes with Corax stomping the proverbial mudhole in Lorgar's heinie and walking it dry.

 

It is also the best Word Bearer centric work of literature Black Library ever released.

[Phoebus]

A D-B, I don't take issue with anything that you outlined. It makes sense. The point that I'm trying to make is that that the reader sometimes has the responsibility to absorb what the author is telling them as opposed to jumping to a conclusion.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

Let's assume for a second that the events of Prospero Burns are indisputable proof that the Space Wolves took out the Missing Legions. Even if that somehow were the case, the reader still has the obligation to process the fact the the Executioners didn't just show up to Prospero to fight the Thousand Sons on an equal playing field, mano-a-mano. They brought with those advantages the Throne thought they'd need to win. That same logic has to be applied when someone starts arguing that the sanctioning of the Missing Legions serves as proof that the Space Wolves are innately superior.

 

That was something I loved about the unauthorized "intervention" Russ tried with Angron, incidentally - the contrast between it and the sanction of Prospero. When Russ confronted Angron, he only had his legion - precisely because (well, in my eyes at least) his effort was not endorsed by the Throne. When he went to Prospero, though, he had Custodes, Sisters of Silence, and who knows what other special war materiel to aid his effort.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Space Wolves are to the HH as the Ultramarines are to 40k then?

 

One gentleman said a bit too much and its snowballed into a mess of twisted emotions that have positively(Betrayer) and negatively(fear to tread) affected the HH as a whole. Honestly, no one here wishes we could forget Prospero Burns more than me.

 

That said, I apologize for helping to derail the thread.

[Stonerhino]

 

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

 

Not force back at all, threw themselves in the way of while Angron pushed Russ back and beat him into the ground. Yes.

 

| - - |

| . . |

| - - |

 

- | |

| | . . 

- | |

 

Its not really that difficult to imagine.

The reason that the World Eaters that were actually trying to get to Angron couldn't.  Was because of numbers.  In your example you are actually saying that the most elite section of the WE's line not only could not react fast enough but had to take enough casualties for their number to be low enough that those low numbers are the desiding factor.

 

When you look at the WE's method of war.  The area with the toughest fighting would attract more WEs not less.  Meaning that if the SW drove encircling pincers around Angron.  Then that thrust would have been the focus of all of the local WEs.  So if you want to believe your "Art".  Then you are saying that the SWs steamrolled the elite center of the World Eater line bad enough that what was left had no hope of getting to Angron.  Personally I don't believe that the Wolves are capable of doing that in this style of engagement.

 

The more believable version would something like this:

| - - |

| . . |

| - - |

 

- I I -

- - I I ..

- I I -

 

As Russ falls back.  The WE's entire line advances.  The Flanks of the SW line advance but the center remains stationary.  This leaves the center of the WE line to continue advancing.  At least until the SW flanks attack them as well.  This would draw the WEs from the central push.  Reducing the available numbers for the central push into manageable levels.  This also explains why the Wolves are suffering.  They are simply engaging to many enemies.

 

I know it's more complicated then your idea.  But it is the simplest way make the scenario end how the text tells us it does.  Where as your idea requires the SW to simply demolish the WEs in a way that they should not be capable of.

[daveNYC]

I think your theory isn't getting traction with some people (including me) is that we aren't even buying the idea that the World Eaters were even trying to reach Angron.  Heck, I don't even think that any of the World Eaters realized that he had been surrounded.  Remember that Angrons standard tactic in battle was to run forward as fast as possible and start chopping.

 

Your theory around the World Eater's tactics is that they would be attracted to the areas of greatest fighting, and since the heaviest fighting would be surrounding the Primarchs, then they should have all gravitated to that location.  Ergo, the Wolves were able to stand fast against the rampaging loonies.  I disagree.  The tactics that you are ascribing to the World Eaters are actually what Orks do.  Orks, while not exactly the sharpest choppas in the drawer, do have an instinctive desire to seek out the biggest fight they can find, and the situational awareness to do so even in the middle of battle.

 

Russ' point, after the whole debacle of the Night of the Wolf had ended, was that the World Eaters were lacking in even that base level of intelligence.  They hadn't lost themselves in some lust for battle that had them seeking out ever greater challenges even to the point of their own distruction, they were so lost in their bloodlust that they weren't even paying attention to anything other than where the nearest target for there rage was.  They didn't care about their Primarch, they didn't care about themselves, they didn't care from whence the blood flowed...

[DarKnight]

Hey Stoner, quick question, why do you consider the Astartes in proximity to Angron the elites of the World Eaters? We already know he disdains any sort of bodyguard, and that the World Eaters attack with hardly any semblance of discipline or cohesion. Wouldn't they just be guys that are just there?

[Scribe]

The only elite I recall, is the Contemptor, the guy without the Nails. The rest where all running around killing Space Wolves.

[Kais Klip]

I think your theory isn't getting traction with some people (including me) is that we aren't even buying the idea that the World Eaters were even trying to reach Angron. Heck, I don't even think that any of the World Eaters realized that he had been surrounded. Remember that Angrons standard tactic in battle was to run forward as fast as possible and start chopping.

 

Your theory around the World Eater's tactics is that they would be attracted to the areas of greatest fighting, and since the heaviest fighting would be surrounding the Primarchs, then they should have all gravitated to that location. Ergo, the Wolves were able to stand fast against the rampaging loonies. I disagree. The tactics that you are ascribing to the World Eaters are actually what Orks do. Orks, while not exactly the sharpest choppas in the drawer, do have an instinctive desire to seek out the biggest fight they can find, and the situational awareness to do so even in the middle of battle.

 

Russ' point, after the whole debacle of the Night of the Wolf had ended, was that the World Eaters were lacking in even that base level of intelligence. They hadn't lost themselves in some lust for battle that had them seeking out ever greater challenges even to the point of their own distruction, they were so lost in their bloodlust that they weren't even paying attention to anything other than where the nearest target for there rage was. They didn't care about their Primarch, they didn't care about themselves, they didn't care from whence the blood flowed...

Do remember that Angron bled a technologically advanced military with a kitchen sink group of gladiators to the point of where said military might as well (and did, to Angron's incredulity) have simply charged the rebels to deny them the initiative. Angron's strategy is much more than zerg rushing forward, contrary to the micro glimpses that we are shown, which is a side effect of the narrative focusing on the on-the-ground fighting.

 

Concentrating maximum amount of force on the most vulnerable target; yes, it is simple (as Khârn points out in Massacre) but it is also effective. That tactic held; an area surrounding Russ is certainly not a tactical weakpoint of Russ' force; the World Eaters of the legion were happy to sacrifice a primarch to kill a primarch and his legion, demonstrating commitment greater than even that of the IVth at the Iron Cage.

 

You underestimate it merely because the tactic focuses on utilising Astartes instead of howitzer shells, when each are just as effective as the other in their own circumstances. Lots of BFF ensues when the two are combined.

[Phoebus]

Kais, the problem with your proposal is that ignores the qualified fact that Angron was deteriorating as time went on, and so did his legion.  Betrayer makes it clear that Angron's mindset and psychology was affected, just as his warriors'  was.  It is clearly stated that the World Eaters' discipline deteriorated.  Given this, I'm not sure how it's accurate to say that the World Eaters were abandoning Angron as part of a calculated sacrifice to take out Russ and the Space Wolves.  The scene, as written, certainly doesn't support this viewpoint.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the author of the novel in question has stated, on these forums, that it was a case of exactly the opposite:  that Lorgar was trying to show Angron just how far he and his legion had fallen, precisely because the World Eaters had basically abandoned him to his own devices.  Angron was too thick-headed to accept this, though.  As far as he was concerned, he had "won".

[Kais Klip]

I agree with you, though not in a passive aggressive way. The legion may not have known what it was doing, but it was it was doing it and it was effective. For me, for you, for Lorgar, Angron had lost, but for him and therefore the world eater's view, where one only cares about his current battle and wins the war by winning it and the next one, Angron was winning. It's not such a cop out either as saying 'opinons'; the way the battle was going we see that Angron had Russ on the ropes, and Angron's legion had Russ legion on the ropes. It is only that Russ' and Angron's parameters of victory differed that we say Angron lost; the point, the message, was that Angron's Nails were killing his legion (Lorgar, you and I agree), but Angron didn't care and in this case as in many others settled it his preferred way; force of personal arms. Angron's objective is to get his king to kill the queen; he kills it but the King finds himself right next to the other King. Checkmate, Russ wins; at Chess (the game we are watching) while Angron wins at Lol-I-Got-Your-Queen. 

 

Edit: it goes alongside the authors intent because that is the gift of the Nails; you do not care if you die, so your opponent has no defense against you, because you simply are not playing by his rules that hold self-preservation as the keystone constant.