Russ is on Terra?

[Phoebus]

Let me be clear. I'm really not invested in the multi-thread debate about whether or not Angron won or lost (assuming he won or lost anything). I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive, but I think it's a pointless discussion. I think it's a clearly-written scene, and if there were any doubt as to its "moral lesson", I'm pretty sure the author who wrote it has since cleared everything up.

Here is what I'm saying in regards to your assertion that "[the World Eaters] were happy to sacrifice a primarch to kill a primarch and his legion", or that the World Eaters were acting as part of some strategy during the Night of the Wolf:

Angron and Russ got into a fight. That fight spilled over to their respective legions. At some point during this fight, Russ found himself on the ground and pointed out to Angron that he was, well, surrounded by Space Wolves who were ready to shoot him. The fact that Angron found himself in that situation was not due to some conscious effort on the part of the World Eaters. He was surrounded and cut off from his legionaries because they had succumbed to the Butcher's Nails and were more worried about sating their bloodlust than they were about protecting their primarch. Is it possible that some of the World Eaters noticed that Angron was in a very precarious situation? Perhaps. But if they did notice, none of them is shown caring. They just went on with their personal rampage.

Had Angron somehow killed Russ before the Space Wolves surrounding him shot him down, it would not have been due to the efforts of his World Eaters. They were consumed by the Butcher's Nails and were thus too busy fighting their own fights to aid or support his efforts. It would not have been part of some battle stratagem. Conversely, if Russ or his Space Wolf firing squad had somehow killed Angron, the fact that the World Eaters were consumed by the Butcher's Nails would have directly contributed to their primarch's death - precisely because they had lost their discipline and were too busy fighting their own fights.

[DarKnight]

Kinda sidebar: Do we know for sure if killing/crippling/injuring a brother Primarch without express permission of the Throne would result in censure? If the Wolves were actually able to kill Angron, of if Angron took off Russ' head in self defense, (though Russ would justify himself easier just by not being a frothing lunatic) would that equal execution/flushing a Legion down the crapper?

[Stonerhino]

Hey Stoner, quick question, why do you consider the Astartes in proximity to Angron the elites of the World Eaters? We already know he disdains any sort of bodyguard, and that the World Eaters attack with hardly any semblance of discipline or cohesion. Wouldn't they just be guys that are just there?

He is there with his captains:

 

 

Lhorke had stood with Angron, as had Khârn and the other captains. ~ Betrayer

 And I would guess his "Body guard" who in the early days were the best fighters in the Legion.  Even if Angron just left them in the dust one fighting started.

[Scribe]

Which is largely irrelevant when they almost all had the nails by that point and where already 'used to letting Angon fight alone'.

 

@DarkKnight - Since the Big E essentially forced Angron into fighting for him, I would say it would be poor form to kill him regardless of circumstance. I would think any killing of a Primarch would be a big fat Delete of your Legion from the rolls.

[Phoebus]

I think it's fairly clear that Russ erred by attacking Angron, and that he didn't have authority to Sanction him.  Had Russ somehow killed Angron, which, once the former regained his composure, I don't think would have happened unless his brother really pushed the matter, I think he would have been in a great deal of trouble.  This being pre-Heresy, I don't know exactly what would have happened.  I think it's quite feasible to argue that both legions would have been censured.

 

What to do with their Space Marines, though?  The Emperor had already ordered that the World Eaters cease using the Butcher's Nails, but by then almost all of them had them.  That having been said, the War Hounds had been useful before - even without a primarch.  So perhaps he could have ordered a "reset" button on them - use the geneseed, but "remove from history" those with the Nails.

 

I don't know how the Emperor would have handled the Space Wolves.  Russ had clearly acted on his own and killed a brother primarch.  That having been said, the VI Legion was loyal to a fault.  Do you expunge them for the sins of the primarch?  Maybe.  At least one of the Missing Primarchs was in play for the majority of the Great Crusade, and was not expunged until after Alpharius was found/a few of decades before the Heresy (Laurie Goulding is not sure how to reconcile the inconsistency between the newest products and The First Heretic, which places the removals prior to the events of Monarchia).  Who is to say that this Missing Primarch didn't also have an important role, but was nonetheless erased for his own sins, errors, or accident?

[RapatoR]

 

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

 

While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance.~ Lorgar in Betrayer

So you are telling me that the SWs outmanoeuved the WE this bad as a happy accident.  That there was no planning beyond "Lets go confront Angron and see were it goes". 

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

 

 

Angron’s pain-slitted eyes locked to his brother’s, and he laughed even harder. ‘This was never meant to come to battle! I see it in your eyes – you took a step too far, little executioner, now you fear how this will all end.’

Excerpt from Betrayer. This might be protected by copyright.

Strawman fallacy here - I never said it was a happy accident. It was the thing any reasonable soldier is supposed to do, when battle erupts. Also which WE elite? The Devourers? Guys that everyone mocked and Angron always left them behind?

[daveNYC]

 

 

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

 

While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance.~ Lorgar in Betrayer

So you are telling me that the SWs outmanoeuved the WE this bad as a happy accident.  That there was no planning beyond "Lets go confront Angron and see were it goes". 

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

 

 

Angron’s pain-slitted eyes locked to his brother’s, and he laughed even harder. ‘This was never meant to come to battle! I see it in your eyes – you took a step too far, little executioner, now you fear how this will all end.’

Excerpt from Betrayer. This might be protected by copyright.

Strawman fallacy here - I never said it was a happy accident. It was the thing any reasonable soldier is supposed to do, when battle erupts. Also which WE elite? The Devourers? Guys that everyone mocked and Angron always left them behind?

 

 

Were the Devourers were really made fun of to their faces as being bad fighters?  I got the impression that the other WE more made fun of the group as a whole and kind of felt sorry that they had such a thankless job (running after the trail of bodies left by Angron and hope they caught up with him at some point).

[RapatoR]

 

‘They’re not even the Legion’s fiercest fighters, any more. That rogue Delvarus refuses to challenge for a place in their ranks. Khârn laughed when I asked him if he’d ever considered it. And do you know Bloodspitter?’ ‘I know Bloodspitter,’ Lorgar replied. Everyone knew Bloodspitter. ‘He beat one of them in the pits, and carved his name into the poor bastard’s armour with a combat knife.’

Excerpt from Betrayer. This might be protected by copyright.

[daveNYC]

Poor devourers.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes they were. Angron recalls how in the pits, Argos beat one of them and then etched his own name into their armor. The Devourers are only the best fighters of those who tried to join. And Angron has no problem saying he had different choices in mind, but that those candidates refused the offer.

[Stonerhino]

 

 

I just want to remind that there was no plan at Ghenna. Russ didn't expected it would come to blows, that is obvious from the scene. Surrounding Angron is something they did spontaneously.

 

While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance.~ Lorgar in Betrayer

So you are telling me that the SWs outmanoeuved the WE this bad as a happy accident.  That there was no planning beyond "Lets go confront Angron and see were it goes". 

 

Or do you expect me to believe that the SWs just forced back the elite WEs from around Angron so completely that they had no hope of getting back to their Primarch.  But somehow the rest of the WEs are just killing their way through the Wolves.

 

It does not make any sence.  Either it is Space Wolves > World Eaters in every way and Angron > Russ in personal combat or Russ planned the whole thing.  Which as Kol pointed out would include the losses the Wolves suffered. 

 

Occam's razor...

 

 

Angron’s pain-slitted eyes locked to his brother’s, and he laughed even harder. ‘This was never meant to come to battle! I see it in your eyes – you took a step too far, little executioner, now you fear how this will all end.’

Excerpt from Betrayer. This might be protected by copyright.

Strawman fallacy here - I never said it was a happy accident. It was the thing any reasonable soldier is supposed to do, when battle erupts. Also which WE elite? The Devourers? Guys that everyone mocked and Angron always left them behind?

 

@ Devourers:

‘They’re not even the Legion’s fiercest fighters, any more. ~ Angron in Betrayer

 

Which means that at some point they where the "Fiercest fighters".  Because they are no longer the best.

 

@ Straw Man:

How am I misrepresenting your argument of "There was no plan"???  If there really was no plan and we know the outcome.  Then we have to have something happen to allow the already determined outcome.  Which is The Wolvess advance and for some reason the WEs oppositet them just kind of wounder of to fight else were (Happy accident) or the Wolves killed the WEs opposite them and forced back the remainder.  Given that the WEs used "Angry" to defeat an Ultramarine shield wall setup and supported to kill them.  I don't see the Wolves just steam rolling the WE elite in this manner.   

 

Don't make accusations when your argument infers that what "May be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes" was something the Wolves can just do on the fly.

[Stonerhino]

I think your theory isn't getting traction with some people (including me) is that we aren't even buying the idea that the World Eaters were even trying to reach Angron.  Heck, I don't even think that any of the World Eaters realized that he had been surrounded.  Remember that Angrons standard tactic in battle was to run forward as fast as possible and start chopping.

 

Your theory around the World Eater's tactics is that they would be attracted to the areas of greatest fighting, and since the heaviest fighting would be surrounding the Primarchs, then they should have all gravitated to that location.  Ergo, the Wolves were able to stand fast against the rampaging loonies.  I disagree.  The tactics that you are ascribing to the World Eaters are actually what Orks do.  Orks, while not exactly the sharpest choppas in the drawer, do have an instinctive desire to seek out the biggest fight they can find, and the situational awareness to do so even in the middle of battle.

 

Russ' point, after the whole debacle of the Night of the Wolf had ended, was that the World Eaters were lacking in even that base level of intelligence.  They hadn't lost themselves in some lust for battle that had them seeking out ever greater challenges even to the point of their own distruction, they were so lost in their bloodlust that they weren't even paying attention to anything other than where the nearest target for there rage was.  They didn't care about their Primarch, they didn't care about themselves, they didn't care from whence the blood flowed...

So why would the World Eaters ignore the Wolves in the middle of the SWs line???  Who are advancing to come to the aid of Russ.  Unless the Wolves gave them a closer "Target".  Which is exactly what happens in the scenario I posted.  The Wolves advance the flanks who fire into the center, the World Eaters in the center move to engage the flanks and the WE center no longer has the manpower to overcome the SW center.  Russ falls back through the SW with Angron in tow. 

 

It is the simplest believable way to go from what Lhorke described to where Angron later continues the story.  I just believe that for the Wolves to do it.  It would require planning in advance. 

 

I think that this theory doesn't gains traction with a lot of people because it makes The Night of the Wolf effectively meaningless.  With the exception of Russ' leson, oh and the interaction between Russ and Angron.  To be honest I don't even like the theory and by extention the Night of the Wolf part of the book.  But like I said it really is the simplest believable way to reconcile the two part of the story we are given.  I have even suggested to ADB that he re-address the fight in another book.  Mainly to ruin my theory, alas he said "No".

 

Also there are some people who see the fight as Angron>Russ.  To those people my theory threatens the fluff that proves that belief. 

[Kol Saresk]

The World Eaters are similar to sharks. When there's blood in the water, they all go for it. But there is a status quo; "The biggest go first". I think we all agree Angron would be the biggest shark. So when the World Eaters all reverted to the Butcher's Nails, which is really an adrenaline-fueled rage that operates by instinct alone, they would avoid Angron out of instinct. This would create a natural "eye of the storm" where the Wolves could fill in the gap.

[Stonerhino]

I could see that as a reason the WE wouldn't engage Russ.  But the Wolves around them who are fighting other WEs, that's stretching. 

[daveNYC]

I still think you're giving the World Eaters too much credit.  The only instinct they have is for another victim.  The Space Wolves are forming a perimter around the Angron vs. Russ battle, and the World Eaters are just chopping at whoever is closest.  It's not like the shield wall battle where they at least have an inkling of where they're going and what they need to do when they get there, these guys are just lost in the bloodlust and not making an attempt to break through to the primarchs' battle (assuming they even are aware of what Russ and Angron are up to).

 

As far as Angron beating down Russ proving that Angron>Russ?  Well of course if the battle is 'get angry and start chopping at the guy while yelling' then Angron is pretty much going to beat the crap out of everyone.  Bonus irony points that in Night of the Wolf it's actually Russ who loses his temper to the point of getting violent.  Angron has been fighting in gladiatorial combats since before he was old enough to shave, Russ is fighting the exact sort of fight that Angron is going to win.  Hell, as a bonus, he's even managed to set things up so that Russ' Wolves are serving as both the edges of the arena and the audience.  Angron is going to beat Russ in this situation because this is exactly the sort of fight that Angron excels at.

 

Savage Weapons shows that there is no ranking of Primarch X > Primarch Y > Primarch Z without taking external factors into account.  The Lion is skewering the crap out of Curze right up unitl Curze changes the nature of the fight.  Nobody can read that and say Lion > Curze or Curze > Lion, the correct answer is that the Lion is far better at a knightly duel with swords, while Curze has the edge when choking people with his hands while banging their head against a rock.

 

And please don't argue that Russ meant to lose the fight in order to show Angron the error of his ways.  That's way off in Just As Planned land.