Zahariel/Nemiel vs. Corswain

[Azoriel]

(I didn’t want to continue to derail someone else’s thread, so I figured I’d start a new one.) Saphrael highlighted something that was said earlier, and I wanted to add a response of my own:

FerociousBeast, on 15 May 2014 - 06:31,said:
There's nothing inherently dull about Zahariel or Nemiel. Their problem, to
your point, is the poor writing. But no one was hamstrung with them. Corswain,
by contrast, is no more inherently interesting than his Black Library
forebears. People just like him better because he stuck a sword through Curze
and ADB included some text about him being one of the greatest warriors of the
Astartes. Actually, if I judge him solely on his conversation or backstory or
motivations, I find him just as instantly forgettable as most of the rest of
the HH series's cast of characters.

Nothing inherently dull about Zahariel and Nemiel? Are we talking about the same characters? Consider:

*Zahariel is a natural psyker and is better than Nemiel at pretty much everything... And that’s about it. He’s not really noteworthy for any other reason. Everything that happens in his life happens to him; it simply falls into his lap, by no merit of his own. (This is even pointed out by Nemiel in Descent.) Despite having had two books from his point of view, he has about as much personalty as Anakin Skywalker from The Phantom Menace, and any involvement he has in his storyline pretty much happens along those same lines. (“Oooops!”)

*Prior to his (final) appearance in “The Lion”, Nemiel is pretty much just Zahariel-lite (minus psychic powers); he’s almost always going with the flow, without a single thought or action of his own. It’s not until he defies the Lion under Gav Thorpe that he actually gets a bit of personality (however short-lived). Much could have been done to flesh out his personality before hand: Did he suffer from feelings of inadequacy after years of living in Zahariel’s shadow, thus compelling him to stand against his primarch when none of his other brethren bothered to do so? Did he harbor a secret hatred for his cousin, thus secretly hating all Librarians in general? Did he feel guilty for his involvement in the plot to assassinate the Emperor on Caliban, which pushed him to compensate for his past disloyalty? Any of these motivations would have fleshed him out leaps and bounds above Zahariel... Yet none of these things are even hinted at when we see things from Nemiel’s point of view in Fallen Angels.

In contrast, Corswain is far more than just what happens to him. He’s a warrior-scholar: he not only took the time to study Nostraman culture during the Thramas Crusade, he did so to the point where he could insult the Night Lords in their own native
tongue. He’s dutiful (as pointed out by Saphrael) but also an idealist: in “By the Lion’s Command”, he

avoids violence against the separatists on Argeus, to ensure their safety against the Death Guard fleet

. He’s polite and chivalrous in his dealings with others, but far from socially inept: in the same short story mentioned above, he

is able to pick apart a highly
contentious meeting of the Inner Circle, and later sways the separatists on Argeus back to the Imperium through his own words and example

. (I liked Saphrael’s thoughts on this matter in the original thread, so I won’t restate them here.)

Is he forgettable? No more so than Sigsimund or Khârn in 30K, who are pretty colorful and interesting by the standards of most. (Granted, 30K Khârn has more friends than Corswain, though the Dark Angels aren't really known for making friends, even in 30K.) I wouldn’t put him on the same level as Argel Tal in terms of characterization, but Argel Tal had two books - you can't expect the same of a character who's only received three short stories.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

When a character is treated as "Beloved" Corswain even from other Legions if my memory serves me well, you know that he has something special, even if the writer doesn't say what is it.  I found myself wondering, how noble a soul can be to enticise such brotherly love from his peers and superiors.

Just my 2 eurocents on the subject.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Alajos stands out to me more than Nemiel and Zahariel as well. Alajos is one of my favourite HH characters, and all we see is him dying! I just love his sacrifice and the way he's prepared to take on both NL's despite knowing he is outmatched by Sevetar.

 

However, Corswain is still my favourite. He is pretty much everything I want my HH DA to be.

[Master Sheol]

Corswain is the Perfect marine-Knight the true DA spirit...

If DA are inspired to arthurian myths, Jonson is Arthur, Luther is Mordred and Corswain is Lancelot...

IMHO

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I don't know about Lancelot, he seems to be slightly more like Gawain.

[Dark_Master]

Corswain is the Perfect marine-Knight the true DA spirit...

If DA are inspired to arthurian myths, Jonson is Arthur, Luther is Mordred and Corswain is Lancelot...

IMHO

Not sure, Lancelot betrayed Arthur.

 

How about Perceval or Galahad?

 

DM

[Master Sheol]

Perceval is the one who found the Graal...

That is Cypher

 

Corswain is more like Gawain or Galahad then

[Aegnor]

Lancelot *seemed* perfect as well, until he got to the part where he wasn't. Maybe Corswain has a bit of a fall coming... ;)

 

Or he is Galahad.

[Cyfax]

While I agree some things could have been explained better, I actually rather liked Zahariel. Yes, a lot of stuff *happens* to him, but I don't see that as a negative thing or a lack of personality. In fact, I think it also offers a different view on the betrayal / the fallen that I like and fits my perspective of the fallen. He constantly tries to do good (the bomb, the demon etc.) yet he still gets dragged down by Luther (ultimately) and gets branded as one of the Fallen.

You can judge a person(ality) through his actions and this absolutely applies to Zahariel as well. I also like how this makes the Fallen more of a grey area.. they aren't (not all of them atleast) purely evil which in turn is also described well in Angels of Darkness (through Astelan).

I haven't read about Corswain yet, although judging by all the posts I definitely should, so I can't comment on him. But I can't really share the negativity towards Zahariel especially not the 'dull' comment. Perhaps slightly more towards Nemiel, but over all I liked his role and story too.

And I just had to add it eventhough it's written by a different author, Zahariel is officially badass for me after Pandorax (although not literally explained, the suggestion seems obvious). The end of the character is a whole different matter however (unfortunately)

[Aegnor]

Where is "By the Lion's Command" published? That one seems to have slipped by me.

[SvenONE]

I'm with him being closer to Gawain, I almost want to bet that the writers' notes have him being inspired by Gawain.  Galahad may not be far off, but I think it's the reserved demeanor and respect of all things (enemies and friends) that makes him more aligned with Gawain.

 

I'll also point out that Gawain and the Green Knight ends with the knights all wearing a Green Sash!

 

I'll be honest that I found Zahariel and Nemiel to be pretty pedestrian characters.  Their existence felt born out of necessity to show how the chapter would go it's separate ways, starting at the very beginning, on a personal level that WASNT predominantly from the point of view of Luther or the Lion (to create mystique in those titanic characters for the reader).  We can only hope that when FW does Caliban (I can't think of any other place that DA would fit in) that Corswain is a sculpt along with Luther and the Lion (naturally).  Our sculpts are going to be probably some of the best models in the Heresy line.

[Aegnor]

They felt a bit Tarvitz/Lucius or any of the other best friends destined to face each other during the Heresy pairing we've seen.

[SvenONE]

They felt a bit Tarvitz/Lucius or any of the other best friends destined to face each other during the Heresy pairing we've seen.

 

Yeah but Zahariel doesn't really seem like a traitor or twists like Lucius was, I felt Zahariel was just wrapped up in something that fell into _his_ lap.  Zahariel's intentions, despite Luther's actions I feel are still up in the air.

[Brother dean]

Think rather than Calaban that FW will bring Dark Angels along in the (whatever) sector where they fought the Night Lords...

 

(memory is fickle...)

[SvenONE]

Think rather than Calaban that FW will bring Dark Angels along in the (whatever) sector where they fought the Night Lords...

(memory is fickle...)

That's Thramas, but the thing is Night Lords rules already came out in one of the recent Heresy Books. But the fact you couldn't remember the name I think is a perfect example as to why FW would do Caliban

[Phoebus]

I honesty don't see any parallels between Corswain and Gawain, Galahad, Percival, or really any Knight of the Round Table.  I mean, does Corswain suffer from Gawain's pride and temper?  Does his strength wax to supernatural levels from dawn 'till noon and then wane back to normal levels from noon 'till evening?  Was he "born" to a rival knighthood that the Lion had to subjugate during the unification of Caliban (Gawain was the son of King Lot, one of Arthur's greatest enemies before the unification of England).  Was he the best knight of the realm until being supplanted by a newcomer (Gawain vs. Lancelot)?  Does he have two brothers, like Gawain and Gareth and Gaheris?  There really are no links between the two characters other than that Corswain is a loyal knight and so was Gawain.  Methinks this is a stretch.

 

I mean, I could try to point to a loose thematic link between Corswain and Palamedes of the Questing Beast, since the latter was defined by his quest to catch a beast an uncatchable beast, and the former has dreams about a beast he can never kill.  But at the end of the day, every Calibanite knight's existence was defined by hunting and killing the Great Beasts, and it's unavoidable that they would have bad dreams about them.

[SvenONE]

Well of course we can't draw complete, literal comparisons between the 2, the KOTRT have a multitude of works written over centuries and cultures, whereas Corswain has what, maybe a page's worth of disjointed info on him?  All we know is that he's a champion of the era regarded very highly by his peers, at face value we can say that while maybe not Gawain specifically, the champions and named characters, and Dark Angels for that matter borrow from Arthurian Legend, that I don't think is a stretch at all.

[Bryan Blaire]

While there are some thematic elements of Arthurian tales within the Dark Angels, I agree with Phoebus, it's a bit of a stretch to pin any one character to a similar one directly from Arthurian tales at this point, even Mordred to Luther doesn't really work except for the betrayal aspect.

[Phoebus]

... the champions and named characters, and Dark Angels for that matter borrow from Arthurian Legend, that I don't think is a stretch at all.

 

How do they borrow from Arthurian legend?  That's my question.  Other than the Lion's ten-millennium rest cycle acting as a parallel to the Once and Future King theme, how do Calibanite knights and Dark Angels borrow from Arthurian legend?  I mean, beyond that both groups are knights.  How do Dark Angels seem more like Arthurian knights than any other sort of knights?

 

I'm not trying to be contrary.  I certainly hope I don't come as rude!  I just really don't see the angle, and I'm curious to hear a different perspective.  :)

[Aegnor]

Was he "born" to a rival knighthood that the Lion had to subjugate during the unification of Caliban (Gawain was the son of King Lot, one of Arthur's greatest enemies before the unification of England).

That description actually fits with the Cypher we meet in Fallen Angels (who may or may not be 40k Cypher). Which reinforces the point that exact parallels don't really work, and that where/if inspiration has been taken, it's been mixed up and applied here and there, rather than copied wholesale.

[Phoebus]

By that standard, though, one could claim far more concrete similarities to far less related concepts - purely on the grounds of coincidence.

 

Warhammer 40k isn't very subtle when it comes to sourcing its inspiration.  Most of the legions are very obvious about where they draw from.  The Ultramarines wear their Greco-Roman origins on their sleeve:  Fortress of Hera, Agesilus Barracks, the reforms of the legions into chapters, etc.  Those legions with vaguely attributed sources of inspiration or that are cut from whole cloth are fairly obvious about that, as well.

 

There are very few "known" things about the Order prior to the arrival of the Emperor.  They lived on a Death World whose ecosystem boils down to "poisonous forest populated by hostile and/or corrupted fauna of all sorts".  They were a meritocratic knighthood.  They apparently disavowed personal property and lived in fortress-monasteries.  They were sworn to hunt down the beasts and protect the common folk of Caliban.  They rode destriers, wore archaic patterns of proto-power armour, and wielded comparatively primitive (by the standards of the Imperium) melee weapons and firearms.  They had mysteries and circles of trust that their squires and knights had to be initiated through.  The Lion grew up feral before being found by knights and becoming a knight himself.  He subsequently led a "crusade" to destroy the Great Beasts of Caliban and more or less unified the planet in the process.  

 

That's basically it.

 

I suppose someone could draw some rough thematic parallels from that list.  Some sort of "Mad Max/Fallout" (death world environment, junk technology) meets "western Christian military order" (knights living in monasteries, sworn to poverty) meets "modern Templar novel" (secrets, conspiracies) meets "Tarzan leader".  And, yeah, once you take into consideration his fate, there's that "Once and Future King" Arthurian element.  Beyond that, though?  When someone sees Gawain in Corswain... I honestly think they're projecting rather than seeing something the author put in there.

 

But that's just me.  It's an opinion.  At the end of the day, this is very much a "to each their own" sort of topic.  :)

[Cactus]

But that's just me. It's an opinion. At the end of the day, this is very much a "to each their own" sort of topic.

I've just realised that you're expounding on the lack of Arthurian connections to the Dark Angels (very well, I might add) in two concurrent threads. No wonder I feel a little disjointed. I thought it was an after-effect of reading Vengeful Spirit!

[SvenONE]

... the champions and named characters, and Dark Angels for that matter borrow from Arthurian Legend, that I don't think is a stretch at all.

How do they borrow from Arthurian legend? That's my question. Other than the Lion's ten-millennium rest cycle acting as a parallel to the Once and Future King theme, how do Calibanite knights and Dark Angels borrow from Arthurian legend? I mean, beyond that both groups are knights. How do Dark Angels seem more like Arthurian knights than any other sort of knights?

I'm not trying to be contrary. I certainly hope I don't come as rude! I just really don't see the angle, and I'm curious to hear a different perspective.

Well it seems a little contrary/rude only because to me you obviously have read the books and I would think see the same themes/events that I do. It's loose, but it's certainly a heck of a lot closer to Arthurian legend than any other of the Legion's histories. Maybe it was wrong for me to say they were direct comparisons or "ports" of characters like I mentioned with Gawain, after all, I think Games Workshop would prefer original IP.

• I mean, there's the Lion's journey from boyhood to leader of the order and eventually the legion under the tutelage of a proxy father.
• The Order, let commoners in, which I think compares a little to the Round Table in which there was no head and carries the theme of equality
• Hunting Beasts that are no ordinary beasts, but the thing of legend and myth, or terror incarnate.
• Defeating all the other orders to unite Caliban, much like Arthur had defeated all the other Barons of England, the Orkney clan could draw similarities in that they were a main rival much like the Knightly order who opposed them (sorry I don't know why I'm drawing a blank) in the North who dabbled in "chaos"
• Merlin and Arthur, can be a sort of twisted version of the Emperor and the Lion (you'd have to think the Emperor taught Lion SOMETHING, and had the forsight enough to know what would happen in his life)
• The quest for the Holy Grail and the Great Crusade, and the stress it put on Arthur's Knight and the Lion's Legion
• The Lion Sword and Excalibur
• I mean, Mordred and Arthur, the Lion and Luther (though this really holds better for the Emperor and Horus, but I always held that the Dark Angels were microcosm of the entire galactic civil war).

I mean, if you don't think these things are borrowed themes, then I think we can agree to disagree...

[Bryan Blaire]

Except that Mordred was either Arthur's actual son, foster son or nephew (depending on which legend version you are using), and came along after Arthur was on the throne, so it's actually the opposite of the Lion and Luther (a theme inversion, or a subversion of the trope - in trope-speak). About the only themes that are actually similar are the knightly one and betrayal of a beloved one. The second is actually found in many other stories, such as the fall of Lucifer, numerous Greek myths, etc, and yet those comparisons aren't being made. Luther's story doesn't involve any of the other components of Mordred's, such as Mordred's death at Camlann (somewhat important, Luther didn't die), he hasn't dragged anyone from a throne room to have them beaten, as Mordred/Merdraut did, nor did he marry Guinevere (something Mordred did in myth prior to this role being transferred to Lancelot for that).

 

Now, the Lion himself has Arthurian themes, that's very true. However, the Hunt really isn't that great of a comparison to the Grail Quest, because that was on-going while Arthur lived - while the Hunt happens after the Lion is lost. It is funny that there was a Sir Lionel in the Arthurian legend. However, in the Knight of the Lion, Arthur is actually so far gone that he needs to sleep after a feast, far different than the Lion.

 

Actually, Luther has one similarity to Ywain, in that he rescues a lion (the Lion) from a serpent (the forest itself or possibly the demon Oroborous, who had likely been tempting the Lion in the forests), and the lion in turn proves to be loyal and helps Ywain complete his ventures (as the Lion was to Luther).

 

So they are close, but whether any other Legion's themes are close to Arthurian themes is irrelevant, it's not like a Legion has to have Arthurian theming.

 

As far as the other characters having specific Arthurian analogs, we really don't have enough information to have a substantial discussion on that, any discussion would have to involve personal inferences not truly supported by textual reference.

 

Based on what we have, you could argue that Zahariel actually embodies some of the Mordred themings with regards to his relationship and actions with the Lion... But again, those would be very loose similarities.

[Phoebus]

SvenONE, 

 

I don't see how it's contrary or rude to have a difference of opinion.  Beyond that, you're right.  I don't think the themes you listed play much of a role.  I think some of them don't apply at all, while others share some paper-thin similarities that don't really withstand scrutiny.  I'm sorry to sound blunt.  I can qualify my position more, if you'd like, but I suspect we'll ultimately just have to - as you said yourself - agree to disagree.

 

On the other hand, I do feel obligated to point out mistakes that you've made in citing the Dark Angels' background.

 

The Order considered all men to be equal, but within its ranks there was a definite hierarchy. While only Arthur outranked his knights, within the Order there were a number of ranks and positions beneath the Supreme Grand Master.  There were even mysteries and secrets associated with them, which were not shared with the uninitiated.  The poorest landless knight of the Round Table could call Lancelot to account for himself and simply needed to back his claims with skill-at-arms.  Zahariel and Nemiel could hardly go to Luther and demand he reveal to them just what the Order was planning on doing with the library of the Knights of Lupus.

 

The Order did not have to defeat all the other knighthoods.  Far from it.  Descent of Angels tells us that ...

 

“Since the coming of the Lion, the knights of Caliban rarely made war against each other, at least not in any major or systematic way. Normally, any conflict undertaken to resolve some issue of affront or insult would take one of the traditional forms of ritual combat.
A conflict of the kind he could see before him, where two knightly orders made ready to bring the best part of their entire strength to bear in a single battle, happened hardly once in a generation.”

 

Excerpt From: Mitchel Scanlon. “Descent of Angels.” iBooks.

 

Given that the Lion had been around for only about a decade by the time the Order made war against the Knights of Lupus, we can plausibly assume that was the first war between knightly orders in a long time.  Where the time before the Lion is concerned, there is only one cited instance of serious conflict between the Order (since its creation) and another group of knights.  That's the battle against the Knights of the Crimson Chalice, who attacked the Order - and not the other way around - because of its meritocratic practices.  Sartana, ironically enough, alludes to the fact that the Great Beasts ensured that conflict between the knighthoods was kept at a minimum.  By the time the Lion was rearing to start the Crusade, the Order was the dominant power on Caliban.  It had more warriors, supplicants, resources, and strongholds than any other knightly order.  Even those groups that didn't consider the Order to be their leaders respected them as "first among equals".  Almost all other knightly orders joined Jonson's crusade willingly.