hydra

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Res Ipsa Loquitur, one hydra is 70 pts for the same output. You could almost have two Hydras (and 8 twin linked str 7 shots) for the price you quote. I'm not sure toughness 7 and 2 wounds is THAT much better.

[hendrik]

sabres used to be the ultimate AA due to how interceptor used to work. but given how interceptor changed, now the hydra took back it's rightfull place

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Res Ipsa Loquitur, one hydra is 70 pts for the same output. You could almost have two Hydras (and 8 twin linked str 7 shots) for the price you quote. I'm not sure toughness 7 and 2 wounds is THAT much better.

 

Only because I am unclear. 

 

120pts gets you three platforms, 12 TL S7 shots, each 4 of which can be directed at a separate target. 

 

Also doesn't use a HS slot, not that FOC really matters any more. They replace HWTs in a Platoon.

[hendrik]

 a sabre platform only fires 2 shots, not 4, so 3 sabre paltforms give you 6 TL S7 shots, not 12 whereas 2 hydras give you 8 shots. the main difference between the two has now become mobility VS imobile superscoring

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 a sabre platform only fires 2 shots, not 4, so 3 sabre paltforms give you 6 TL S7 shots, not 12 whereas 2 hydras give you 8 shots. the main difference between the two has now become mobility VS imobile superscoring

 

You are correct, my bad. 6 S7 TL shots. So take four independent platforms and have 8 S7 TL shots for 160pts and all your HS free.

 

I'm not dismissing Hydras, I just prefer Sabres. 

[march10k]

Hmmm...more expensive per shot and more fragile, not to mention that FW isn't universally accepted?  I'm not saying you don't legitimately prefer Sabres, I'm just saying  it's based on emotion, not fact.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

And the fact that my HS slots are full of LRs.

[march10k]

~shrug~  I regularly field 5-6 LRs, but I'll be making room for a pair of hydras in one of the HS slots as soon as I get them painted...all it takes is moving a tank from HS to pask's squadron, with a techpriest to split his fire...and the lucky tank even gets preferred enemy out of the deal!

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

One squadron means that you can only fire at one target a turn, mind.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Sabres aren't as good, true, but they were bloody amazing before so it's no real loss. 

 

120pts for all the AA you'll need. Still T7. Still W2. Still 4 S7 TL shots.

 

As long as IA is allowed in your games...

 

Imperial Armour has Griffons. But the Wyvern performs so well, I do not see why.

 

See above, plus...I already own the griffons, and they are not at all the same...Large S6AP4 ordnace pieplate that rerolls scatter versus two small blast S4AP6 cover ignoring shred.  S6 ordnance can hurt light vehicles that happen to be sitting next to the targeted troops, although I would hesitate to deliberately target one.  And there's no comparison between S6AP4 and S4AP6, shred be damned.

 

Vs T3 carapace in ruins, the griffon wounds on 2+ versus 3+ for the wyvern, with 4+ save either way.  In the open (which includes behind an ADL), no save versus the griffon, full save versus the wyvern.

 

Vs MEQs, 2+ to wound from the griffon, 4+ versus medusa, and yeah, 1/6 of wounds will cut armor.  Doesn't offset the difference in to-wound chances.

 

Anyway, I'll probably just end up taking an eradicator...120 points for an S6AP4 pieplate with no minimum range, AV14, ignores cover instead of ordnance, and the option for sponsons...yum!

 

 

Get the rules right, Wyvern is Twin-Linked, 4 small blasts, barrage, ignores cover and shred. The rending came from an outside effect. 4 small blasts rerolling to hit and to wound beat a big one. Ignoring cover forces smaller and stealth units to use their crappy armour, at which point the ap4 does not matter. An average of 10-15 wounds on 5 models from 1 Wyvern beats both Eradicator and Griffon, even against MEQ and TEQ, especially for the 65 points. Don't get me started on blob control. Wipes entire 10man squads of smaller 5+ and 6+ units of the field in 1 shooting phase.

Just try it, I didn't want to use it either. Now I run 2 of them.

[Raulmichile]

Basically, Griffons are better all rounders than Wyverns. On the other hand, Wyverns are vastly superior at one thing: vs light infantry behind cover or in area terrain. The potential area covered by four small templates is higher also although not as constant.

[Raulmichile]

Oh, and I also hesitated to swap my Griffon for a Wyvern. Now after a couple of games shredding deep striking daemon infantry and eldar scouts, I am a happy Wyvern owner.

[Frater Cornelius]

Basically, Griffons are better all rounders than Wyverns. On the other hand, Wyverns are vastly superior at one thing: vs light infantry behind cover or in area terrain. The potential area covered by four small templates is higher also although not as constant.

My experience has been very consistent. The fact that you can reroll every scatter, even the ones when flipping the template to force direct hits, makes it very reliable. 3 direct hits is the average on that.

T6 2+ save is the only thing that it could not reliably hurt. Anything below that will take losses. 5 man terminatorn squads will die more reliably because large blast can get 5 hits at most. While the Wyvern (when hitting 2 on averge, 3 if you are lucky) can get from 8-12 hits. That is around 4 griffons wounds and 6-10 Wyvern wounds. Guess who will kill more.

 

The only thing a Griffon can do better is hurting light vehicles with s6 ordnance, thus bringing flexibility to the game where the Wyvern is specialized to kill dudes.

[march10k]

Sabres aren't as good, true, but they were bloody amazing before so it's no real loss.

120pts for all the AA you'll need. Still T7. Still W2. Still 4 S7 TL shots.

As long as IA is allowed in your games...

Imperial Armour has Griffons. But the Wyvern performs so well, I do not see why.

See above, plus...I already own the griffons, and they are not at all the same...Large S6AP4 ordnace pieplate that rerolls scatter versus two small blast S4AP6 cover ignoring shred. S6 ordnance can hurt light vehicles that happen to be sitting next to the targeted troops, although I would hesitate to deliberately target one. And there's no comparison between S6AP4 and S4AP6, shred be damned.

Vs T3 carapace in ruins, the griffon wounds on 2+ versus 3+ for the wyvern, with 4+ save either way. In the open (which includes behind an ADL), no save versus the griffon, full save versus the wyvern.

Vs MEQs, 2+ to wound from the griffon, 4+ versus medusa, and yeah, 1/6 of wounds will cut armor. Doesn't offset the difference in to-wound chances.

Anyway, I'll probably just end up taking an eradicator...120 points for an S6AP4 pieplate with no minimum range, AV14, ignores cover instead of ordnance, and the option for sponsons...yum!

Get the rules right, Wyvern is Twin-Linked, 4 small blasts, barrage, ignores cover and shred. The rending came from an outside effect. 4 small blasts rerolling to hit and to wound beat a big one. Ignoring cover forces smaller and stealth units to use their crappy armour, at which point the ap4 does not matter. An average of 10-15 wounds on 5 models from 1 Wyvern beats both Eradicator and Griffon, even against MEQ and TEQ, especially for the 65 points. Don't get me started on blob control. Wipes entire 10man squads of smaller 5+ and 6+ units of the field in 1 shooting phase.

Just try it, I didn't want to use it either. Now I run 2 of them.

Huh? I did miss the fact that it's TWO twinlinked mortars, not one, but I don't see any reference to rending in that post. So four small blasts versus one large one, probably the wyvern gets more hits at lower S and AP, pretty comparable in most cases, I'd say. A target with ideal spread will ensure that you can't get more than two hits with the small template, so a max of eight hits. They'd have to be at max spread in a conga line to make the griffon get significantly less than that (and then I just target the part of the conga line that's not in cover FTW). But a normal target, you'll probably get 10-12 hits with a wyvern, 7-8 with a griffon. Accounting for S6 vs S4, it's a wash after you roll to wound. So it really comes down to AP4 versus cover-cutting and shredding. The wyvern comes out ahead there, but that's slightly offset by the griffon's ability to hurt light vehicles with S6 ordnance. In the end, my preference is driven by two things, since the mathhammer performance of the two is very similar. One, I already have the models, and two, they're the spitting image of some track-mounted heavy mortars that I've commanded in real life (can't argue with that!) On the other hand, I understand the preference of others, the wyvern is shiny, new, cheaper than FW resin, and available on the shelf in the local shop. Performance-wise, though, it's a ford pickup truck versus a chevy pickup truck...they both haul the same mattress to the dump, the difference is marketing!

One squadron means that you can only fire at one target a turn, mind.

Naturally. I'd almost always want to throw eight shots at a target anyway. Sure, it would be nice to shoot four and then decide where to allocate the other four, but killing one flyer per turn with 140 points worth of air defense is more than good enough... When it comes to wave serpents, I almost certainly need eight shots!

[Frater Cornelius]

It has Shred, not rending. The rending I once mentioned in connection to the Wyvern was when I casted Misfortune against a squad, which causes all 6s to wound to be rending. Thus the Wyvern has benefited from it. But it does not have Rending in its profile.

[hendrik]

one thing to note is that heavy support slots should never really be a problem, the minimum cost to go double force org chart is a command squad and 2 veteran squads, heck, i'm sure a lot of us can fit in 2 force org charts in our bog standard list by just adding either a HQ choice or a troops choice. failing that you could always use allied armoured battalion leman russes (more expensive pointswise on some variants, but they bring nifty gear as well) if you allow forgeworld

[march10k]

one thing to note is that heavy support slots should never really be a problem, the minimum cost to go double force org chart is a command squad and 2 veteran squads, heck, i'm sure a lot of us can fit in 2 force org charts in our bog standard list by just adding either a HQ choice or a troops choice. failing that you could always use allied armoured battalion leman russes (more expensive pointswise on some variants, but they bring nifty gear as well) if you allow forgeworld

 

 

Excellent point...I might try that...If I'm fielding four or more veteran squads anyway, the "tax" is 60 points...60 points worth of more orders to hand out every turn, plus it's a short veteran squad, to boot, with no special weapons cap (I'd probably still just give them an autocannon and call it a day).  70 points later, for me, and I have 6 heavy support slots, muahahahaha

 

/edit/

 

Holy guano, Robin...you're so right about that idea.  I get pasquisher with a LRBT squadron mate and two independent hydras hiding behind them on top of a closed skyshield, two demolishers, an eradicator, and an LRBT, four super-scoring empty chimeras, a CCS with an autocannon, and four forward sentries squads with autocannons for 1850.  That's insane!  Granted, I could take all of that anyway, but I'd have to squadron them up if I were restricted to a single guard FOC at 1850...I completely missed that the "unlock a second FOC at 2k" thing was gone....

[Raulmichile]

Basically it boils down to asking what will you will probably face: many light vehicles with some infantry/heavy infantry support? Take the Griffon. Lots of massed light to medium infantry, deep striking or hulking in cover, or everything else apart from multiwound-high toughness infantry and monsters? Take Wyverns.

 

In my still limited experience with Wyverns I'm leaning these days towards Wyverns over Griffons. Rerrolling multiple blasts is something that should not exist in the game...

[Frater Cornelius]

Basically it boils down to asking what will you will probably face: many light vehicles with some infantry/heavy infantry support? Take the Griffon. Lots of massed light to medium infantry, deep striking or hulking in cover, or everything else apart from multiwound-high toughness infantry and monsters? Take Wyverns.

 

In my still limited experience with Wyverns I'm leaning these days towards Wyverns over Griffons. Rerrolling multiple blasts is something that should not exist in the game...

 

THE EMPEROR WILLS IT! Besides, there are places where you get eaten alive by a Gregorian choir of enraged neckbeards if you come along with FW stuff. Personally, I like FW, but I have little use for most of the models right now :(

[march10k]

Basically it boils down to asking what will you will probably face: many light vehicles with some infantry/heavy infantry support? Take the Griffon. Lots of massed light to medium infantry, deep striking or hulking in cover, or everything else apart from multiwound-high toughness infantry and monsters? Take Wyverns.

 

In my still limited experience with Wyverns I'm leaning these days towards Wyverns over Griffons. Rerrolling multiple blasts is something that should not exist in the game...

 

 

That's really stretching it.  The griffon isn't there for blowing up warwalker swarms, which is what you're implying.  And the wyvern isn't explosively superior to the griffon against light infantry, which you're also implying.  Finally, the griffon wounds more T3 models than the wyvern, by a large enough margin to offset any difference in the number of hits, and against T4 (is that what you mean by high toughness?), wounding on 2+ vs 4+ makes all the difference in the world.   When you say deepstriking, I assume you mean inside the minimum range of the griffon?  That's close enough that they'll likely be killing either vehicle's av10 sides/rear, rendering minimum range moot.  I'm not sure what "multiwound" has to do with anything, neither vehicle is going to be insta-gibbing "multiwound high toughness" infantry...

 

Almost anything T3 is going to be  wounded on 2+ and APed by the griffon, but will usually get its cover save, if any.  Almost anything T3 is going to be wounded on 3+ and allowed its armor save by the wyvern.  The wyvern has potential to achieve far more hits if they're really tightly packed, but the griffon might achieve more hits if they're at max spread.  Overall, the which one is better is going to be highly situational against T3 infantry.

 

Most T4 and higher has 3++ or an invul, so AP4 on the griffon only matters against stuff like necron warriors.  However, S6 really outdoes S4 at T4 and above.  2+ to wound against MEQs more than offsets both a higher number of hits from the four small blasts (unless we're talking four direct hits against deepstrikers who didn't run, which implies an outlandishly stupid opponent) and the 1/6 shred results.

 

Even Immersturm's example of a terminator squad is a little exaggerated.  A griffon will probably wound four, yielding .66 kills, that part is accurate enough.  But 8-12 hits with a wyvern is wishful thinking.  Even with six wounds, the expected result of 12 hits, you're talking .33 kills for the one shred, and .55 for the rest, totaling .88.  Best case, .88 vs .66 kills?  That's hardly worth mentioning!

 

A griffon has a 75% chance to at least glance AV10, a 4/9 chance to at least glance AV11, and a 7/36 chance to glance AV12.  a Wyvern has a 40.5% chance to get at least one glance against AV10 (the chance of more than one is pitiful), with no chance to pen, and no chance to glance anything higher.

 

I think  the assessment that a griffon is good against a wider variety of targets is accurate, but you are implying exactly the opposite, that it's highly situational for the griffon to outperform the wyvern.    I think you have to assume an above average number of hits and either 5+ or worse in cover in the case of T3, or TDA in the case of T4, for the wyvern to outperform the griffon.  Four S4 blasts that reroll scatter, cut cover, and shred is pretty awesome.  So is a S6AP4 ordnance large blast.  

 

 

 

 

 

 Besides, there are places where you get eaten alive by a Gregorian choir of enraged neckbeards if you come along with FW stuff. 

 

 

That only applies to FW stuff that's not in the codex...and the griffon WAS in the codex!  It would have cost GW nothing to leave the griffon in the codex...yet they took it out?  It's a threat to wyvern sales, I think.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

one thing to note is that heavy support slots should never really be a problem, the minimum cost to go double force org chart is a command squad and 2 veteran squads, heck, i'm sure a lot of us can fit in 2 force org charts in our bog standard list by just adding either a HQ choice or a troops choice. failing that you could always use allied armoured battalion leman russes (more expensive pointswise on some variants, but they bring nifty gear as well) if you allow forgeworld

 

I don't know, fitting an extra 180 points in isn't as easy as you're making it sound.

 

Especially when I'd be doing it for no real reason and restricting my flexibility to do so. Like march10k, I would probably put all 8 shots on one Flyer, too. The difference between a Hydra battery in one HS slot and four independent Sabres is that if I down it in two shots (a girl can dream) or four shots, I can fire the other six/four at another target. Sabres also don't have to be deployed relatively bunched up like Hydras do. Oh, and they super-score. 

 

Also, I use historical minis (Soviet ZU-23 AA guns) for Sabres and so they only cost $10 + bitz needed to make crew.  

 

Again, I'm not dismissing the Hydra. The Sabres work better for me, is all. They are more expensive per stat-line shot. 2.5pts per shot, in fact. Hardly back-breaking. I don't know that they are more fragile. Head to head they may be, but it's much easier to hide a Sabre.    

[hendrik]

the extra 180 pts don't have to be 180 points though! if you're fielding 4 infantry squads per platoon you could split those up into 2 platoons each, costing only 70 pts more, upgrade 1 leman russ into a HQ choice, done! there is so much we can do while spending ample points, it's a glorious day for listbuilding!

[march10k]

I don't know, fitting an extra 180 points in isn't as easy as you're making it sound.

 

It really depends on the rest of your list.  If you're running veterans instead of platoons, or in addition to platoons, It becomes much easier.  Several of my lists run veterans now, I've gone away from platoons.  There are several reasons.  Obviously super-scoring isn't quite as critical as scoring used to be, for one thing. For another, super-scoring transports further reduce the pressure to spam troops.  Finally, forward sentries are down from 100 points per squad to just 70 and BS4 in 3+ cover is pretty awesome.  Then I take empty dedicated transports for each squad, spamming AV12 super-scoring dakkatanks.  In my case, the "tax" is 70 points, for which I get a bonus CCS with autocannon....not much of a tax, IMHO.  And, as Hendrick said, if you have enough (8+) line squads in a 2PCS list to thin them out, you can get away with just fielding the bonus CCS and two bonus PCSs...again, more orders is never a terrible thing.  My 6th edition list had one CCS, two PCSs, and six line squads, so I would have to make major additions (CCS, two PCSs, and two line squads) to that army to get the second FOC...but here's the thing....if you're spamming BS3 infantry, you don't have the points to buy enough tanks to need a second FOC, so the question is moot.  If you've got so much armor that you need more than 3 heavy FOC slots, you're probably not fielding platoons.  You might be, but you probably aren't.    And if you're way out of balance, such as 20 vets and a CCS as bare minimum battleforged satisfaction requirements, it would do you some good to be forced to field more infantry!

 

I think it really is a valid idea.  Many armies will find that the "tax" consists of fielding a second HQ...some might even find that they already have 4+ troops and 2 HQs, and it just never occurred to them to split into two detachments.

 

/edit/  Here's a thought...two CCSs, each one issuing  "get back in the fight" to two forward sentries squads each turn...those forward sentries squads are in ruins, effectively having 2+ cover without giving up their shooting, muahahahaha!  Obviously not gamebreaking, but it sure would annoy the snot out of a couple of guys down at my shop...

[Frater Cornelius]

I remember once saying that the Hydra isn't all that great. Well, I need to swallow my pride and go back on my word.

Here is my tactical assessment for the 7ed and the use of a Hydra:

With the loss of the Intercept = firing at ground targets rule there is no 'generalist' unit that can effectively deal with flyers outside of crazy tanks like pask or massive blobs shooting in the sky at a FMC. Specialist units like Wyverns are way cheaper, they just lack a utility outside of their role. The Wyvern can find a lot of targets, but what about the Hydra? Well, for one it can fire at skimmers at full BS. With 2 Hydras (kinda the sweet spot) you get 8 shots that can potentially ignore their jink if you take a handful of Divination Psykers. They can put pressure on FMC Psykers and Aircraft. If you fire both together, you can average at 3 hits + 2 heavy bolters against ground targets, decent.

But here is the big draw: there is plenty of utility outside of AA and skimmers. It is darn cheap, thus expendable. Here are some ways to use it when there are absolutely no targets: It needs to fire its AC as snap shots anyway, so drive 12" and put it in the opponents face to distract him or to block LoS or even contest objectives scored by non-super-scoring units. You can also Tank Shock and Ram with s7 (decent against lighter tanks). You can also be really cheesy and flat-out it in front of expensive tanks that just shot, like Pask, or in front of scoring infantry at an objective to shield them.

That is a fair lot of utility for 140 points. I didn't see it until I had a nice chat with some nid players. I think that with the nerf of generalists like Quad Gun and Sabres, the cheap as hell Hydra will get a spot in my army as a single battery of 2 Hydras. Good stuff I believe

[hendrik]

after todays game i can definetly agree with immers on the matter. even though flying deamon princes got a nerf by not being able to assault straight away, they can still summon a lot and cause a lot of trouble in doing so. i used to swear on sabre platforms, but now that i've played an actual game in 7th edition i think the mobility and scoring will win out over the superscoring and imobile.