Viability of Mechanized Infantry

[Komrk]

With the introduction of hull points, APCs are definitely nerfed. My question is, how do you still make it work, or can you even make it work?

[minigun762]

With the introduction of hull points, APCs are definitely nerfed. My question is, how do you still make it work, or can you even make it work?

Entirely workable.

 

You still need armor saturation

You still need a focus on short range shooters unless you're using assault vehicles

You still need long range fire support

 

But mechanized infantry is still a viable option

[tdemayo]

I always take Rhinos for my Tac Squads.  As vehicles, they are fragile, and shed first blood, but they provide a useful turn of protection and movement.  They are also reasonably cheap.  They also black line of sight, and/or can provide cover, sometimes even after they are dead.

[Azash]

Everything everyone else said plus they add mobility.

 

I have found its not so much armor saturation as it is threat saturation. If you are going to sit back on a gun line rhinos are useless and will go down easily and often achieve nothing. If you have units up in your opponents face or threatening from distance the rhino moves down in target priority.consequently it survives longer and achieves more.

[minigun762]

 

I have found its not so much armor saturation as it is threat saturation. 

 

That's probably a better description of what you need. 

What's the current internet term for that? "Maximum Threat Overload" or something like that?

[Sheesh Mode]

Everything everyone else said plus they add mobility.

 

I have found its not so much armor saturation as it is threat saturation. If you are going to sit back on a gun line rhinos are useless and will go down easily and often achieve nothing. If you have units up in your opponents face or threatening from distance the rhino moves down in target priority.consequently it survives longer and achieves more.

This the premise my Khorne Chosen army is based off of. The more 'scary' targets I can get into my opponents comfort zone as possible the better my chances for survival. I run a landraider and a 67pt rhino for my chosen. The rhino has been destroyed three times in the 15 games I've played in recent memory. My enemy is too worried about the vindicator and landraider to care about the little metal box filled with plasma-chosen. 

 

It's all about how you maneuver. If you are playing regular marines, there are very few reasons for you not to take rhinos. Vanilla simply doesn't have enough durability on its infantry to justify leaving them in the open (unless they are scouts in which case they have the range or have infiltrated close enough) Rhinos provide the protection necessary to keep your scoring units in the game. That's a big deal, 40k is largely an objective game and you need troops to win. What will you do when your footslogging and the enemy is already positioned at the objective to blow you away? 

[Excubitor]

FW's Tarnus Vale makes a rhino/razor/Raider mech list that extra bit tougher with the right saturation. Combine that with the UM CT, Storm of Fire WL trait, and the ability to slot in Tiggy, and you have the potential for an extremely heavy firepower-based mech list.

 

I ran something of a demi-company with Vale in a stock LR, 2 10 man tacs in rhinos, 2 5-man squads in razors, 5 Land Speeders (typhoons, in a 2-2-1 Squad set-up) with a LR redeemer, and Chronus in a Auto-las pred.

 

Of course, with no FW you can't get Vale, so you'd go for a different set-up.

[Kaedes Nex]

Rhinos will never explode except to melta/lance weapons with result of 7+ on penetration table according to 7E rumors, so that helps.

[Excubitor]

Yeah, was just reading that in the WD myself. Seeing as I mostly lost vehicles to things like plasma and krak missiles (or equivalents like Hive Guard) shooting wise as we don't use much melta/las around here I think I'll start running my dreads again.

[GreyCrow]

I think its perfectly viable and it is going to be even more viable in 7th edition. Thanks to rolling a 7 on the Explodes chart, so that Krak missile doesn't get lucky.

 

Besides, you are going to want mobility for later game for your Tacticals if you go Battle Forged, so that's good enough.

[Excubitor]

Oh, I have no worries running a few rhino's even in non-mech lists for mobility. Even if they blow up easy, they're cheap. It's more expensive options like dreads and preds that need the survivability.

[Azash]

To be honest I lose most of my vehicles to glancing. Changes to the chart will not stop the infamous eldar tank-a-turn shield gun. That things range should have been like 36" max.

 

But other armies achieve the same result, necrons are very good about glancing, tau missile sides, even space marine armies with things like talons which are great glancers.

 

That's before you get into haywire and krak grenade assaults.

[Kaedes Nex]

Oh, I have no worries running a few rhino's even in non-mech lists for mobility. Even if they blow up easy, they're cheap. It's more expensive options like dreads and preds that need the survivability.

 

I agree. I too would like to be able to run dreadnoughts and predators, but it's not feasible at the moment.

 

Dreadnoughts we all know have a huge problem, since they are walkers. I don't think this can be fixed unless they do something like give the Venerable a 4++, and increase all their AV by 1, so the Ironclad is now AV14. However, since you mentioned Predators, I'm assuming even an AV13 Dreadnought is not good enough for the types of games you play.

 

I personally think the Predator is fine, just because it has AV13 front. If we gave it AV14 front that would REALLY step on Imperial Guard's toes and be terrible in terms of faction balance (yeah yeah, I know AM is way better right now and game balance is always wonky). I get by fine with the Predator so long as you can hide it's side and rear. My problem with the Predator is how expensive they are for how little shots you get.

 

Perhaps you can look at some FW stuff. I'd have said the Sicaran Venator would be right up your ally but it went from 13/13/13 to 13/12/12, and it seems like AV13 is not tough enough against the opponents you face. I really don't see any options available to us besides allies, AV14 and Land Raiders, or flyers like the Stormraven. It might be better off going vehicle light or using Void Shield Generators until a viable fix is implemented.

 

Also forgot about Contemptors. Those are still pretty good with AV13 and various invulnerable saves. But they are no longer "great" but "worth their cost".

[Excubitor]

It's actually the 11 on the side of the pred that's the big problem, less than AV12 doesn't survive long enough without spam and my regular opponents have no worries getting side shots on tanks (then again, neither do I), so the Preds just die too easily. Dreads as walkers have the problems we all know they have, so yeah.

 

I'm actually really interested by the Sicarian, and will be buying the IA with them soon. I'm also interested in trying some of the relic abilities, they might add some flavour and tricks to my lists.

[Tangamarine]

Yeah sicarans are looking like a nice option, it is a pity that there is only 40k rules for the normal one not the venator.

Their resilience gets a buff with the rumored 7th ed changes, such as 7+ to explode, especially since ap 1 normally comes via melta, which you can conveniently buy armored ceramite to nullify the melta rule.

 

In fact I like them so much I am in the process of butchering a land raider to make one :)

 

 

I feel mech is still viable, you just have to have the correct amount of threats; as was mentioned earlier, and any way that you can increase the amount of firepower to bring down each vehicle is capitalised on (eg cover, DA powerfield generators, techmarines repairing, ironhand chapter tactics, and possibly chronus)

 

I have been thinking along the lines of 2x vindicators a landraider and a sicaran along with 2x mortis dreads/contemptors for skyfire, with a allied dark angel powerfield generator and ironhand tactics to keep it all together.

3x squads of tactical marine squads in rhinos are then shielded by these, and act in support.

[GreyCrow]

Regarding AV11 on the Predator's side, I've always thought that the best position for the Predator was angled at 45° with its back facing a corner of the table, and positionned not too far from the board edge. Unless the enemy is positionned within 6" of a side table edge with a direct line to your side, or within 4" of your backfield table edge, he'll be facing front armour most of the time.

 

Because of the range of its weapons, there's no need for him to be driven up the board. I see it more as a fire support tank rather than a Main Battle Tank like it's been described.

 

Dreadnoughts I like and I want to make them viable. But with the Marine Codex, you can't count on a Dreadnought to do all the heavy lifting. It should always be carried with another squad to soak up some wounds, provide a mobile 5+ cover save or deny assaulting. It might be best coming in Turn 2 or later with either a Pod or a Raven when the weapon density of the enemy will be lower.

 

Rhinos' all around AV11 is quite problematic however. I feel that like Razorbacks, they are best relegated to the sides rather than center assault, which is where your Land Raider will shine the most, thanks to AV14, as a transport.

[incinerator950]

I wish Chaos had better stock tank choices and upgrades. 

[minigun762]

Regarding the Predator, my biggest problem is that the Storm Raven exists. It is more expensive and it cannot be on the table turn 1 but it brings a large increase in the trinity of tank design (firepower, mobility and durability). 

[Azash]

Flatly for the cost the predator, ww, and vindicator need armor 12 on the side.

 

As long as you can glance tanks to death and you have things like fast moving multi shot (5+) str 5+ units in the game armor 11 on a high priority target makes them laughable in regards to survivability.

 

Now the WW is the best of the three because it has barrage so you can get creative but its also 11 all the way around. Should be more like the stalker 12/12/10.

 

Edit: while we are on the subject all Rhino hulls should come with the repair rule. It makes no sense the way it is right now. How does mounting an auto cannon on top mess with the engines ability to repair.

[incinerator950]

Sometimes I see APC variants of tanks have reduced armor for troop transport, but personally I don't believe the Rhino should have weaker armor for the sake of troop transport.  Especially with this edition of having so much that can kill them easily, and that's not with heavy weapons.

[GreyCrow]

I think they just wanted to change how space marines played. Less driving forward in the early rounds, and more standing back and shoot, then pushing forward.

 

AV 11 on the side of the Predator is pretty easy to hide, to be fair, just put it angled in the corner like I said. The vindicator is another issue, it's more fragile but it's damn more nasty against everything.

 

Regarding the Raven, it's a good alternative, but as you said, its role is different. I see more the Raven as popping units and the Predator more of an area denial unit. I'm planning to try a game with 2 TL LC/HB Predators parked on either side of the map to delay the advance of the enemy and force them in cover. Bunched up like this, they should be easy preys to my sternguard !

[incinerator950]

Yes, not one of their better judgement calls.

[Tiger9gamer]

for those with the bits, The predator executioner is a lot better than the vindicator in terms of damage output and range. pair it with one legacy of glory from FW and you have an awesome beast that can ignore cover and blast things into oblivion. 

 

Also I found for support a simple autocannon dread will work wonders. same price as a storm talon but it doesn't fill important slots and stays on the board through the game. 

[GreyCrow]

In yesterday's game night, there were 2 situations that made me think mechanized armies are viable now and are going to be even more viable in 7th ed.

 

The change to hull point might have nerfed vehicles compared to 5th where they seemed to be virtually indestructible, they are still not an auto-lose for the player who brings vehicles, especially in the Marines Codex. 3 Hull points is actually good, and this is going to get better now that AP3 or higher won't be able to cause an Explodes! result on the damage table, and now that AP2 weapons will need to roll a 6 and AP1 will need to roll 5+.

You also have to take cover with your tanks. 4+ might not seem much, but it gives you 50% chance to keep a hull point.

 

The first game I'm referring to, I was spectating a Marines vs. Guard game. The Marines had the Imperial Fists CT with loads of Anti Tank : 2 Deva squads with 2 missiles and 2 las in each, 1 Rifledread and 1 Las/missile Dread, and the minimal melta bike squad with the Chapter Master and a Thunder Hammer.

Guards had the usual loadout of Leman Russes (3 total) and 3 Chimeras for the troops, all benefiting from cover. Although the Marine player made some mistakes and managed to strip a few hull points from several vehicles, he did not manage to wreck or explode a single one. Granted, Guards have better tanks than Marines, but appropriately using cover on the board made him very, very resilient.

 

The 2nd game, this time I played, with my Marines versus Inquisition from the Grey Knights Codex. He played a Bastion and a 'Raven flier, and I only had a Razorback. Even though I lost the game due to it being an experimental list and poor tactical choices, no vehicles were blown up in this game, with a whooping total of 1 Hull Point removed from my Razorback (and Immobilized it) which was from a Melta shot from the 'Raven at Melta range.

 

The 2 cases are interesting imho, because in the first game, one had loads of tanks and the other loads of anti-tanks and the vehicles managed to survive. In the 2nd game, even if the opponent had sufficient anti tanks (2 Dreadknights, a Multi-melta henchmen squad and the Raven with TLLC and TLMM) for my lonely Razorback, he didn't manage to kill it. Granted, he was pointing most of its guns at my Marines, but that's the beauty of the Marines' army. They need Anti-Tank weapons to bring out Marines down reliably, but if they do that, they don't target our vehicles.

And if they target our vehicles, our Marines are still able to dish out the pain.

 

Imho, armour saturation is still strong, but you need to approach it differently than before. It has to be a real dilemma for the opponent whether to take out you Marines or take out your tanks.

 

In addition, being able to survive a few rounds of shooting from small arms fire is priceless for Marines. There are only so many 3+ saves you can make, and you have to prepare for the case when dice rolls go absolutely wrong.

[Stickeh]

I think mech has been viable throughout 6th, and looks to be a tad stronger in 7th with vehicles more difficult to explode, and dedicated transports supposedly benefitting from incontestable. It just wasn't as strong as it was in 5th when mech was king. If you built enough armour saturation and still had enough scoring bodies, it was solid, but was straight up weaker than it was in 5th.