Ravenlord

[Augustus]

I agree. While I do recognize Wade's fear  I feel a loyalist Night Lord could make for some interesting fiction--if done properly. This is a massive civil war. Sides change. It's not like An'ggrath the Unbound decides to run to the aid of Fulgrim. These guys fought for 200 years for the side their group betrayed. There's bound to be some switcheroos taking place. Or none at all ;) I'd also be interested in the reverse. More loyalists going over to Horus.

[A D-B]

I think people just get tired of Drizzt Do'urden Syndrome is all.

 

As a general note, that's my least-favourite trope in fiction, and one I was lamenting at the Weekender only yesterday. Drizzt. Wolverine. Blade.

 

"But I'm the good Bad Guy."

 

The quickest and easiest way ever to write a popular character, regardless of how well-written, realistic, or actually interesting he/she is. Immediate interest purely because of what the character is, not who he/she is.

 

Bad Writing 101.

[A D-B]

I agree. While I do recognize Wade's fear I feel a loyalist Night Lord could make for some interesting fiction--if done properly. This is a massive civil war. Sides change. It's not like An'ggrath the Unbound decides to run to the aid of Fulgrim. These guys fought for 200 years for the side their group betrayed. There's bound to be some switcheroos taking place. Or none at all I'd also be interested in the reverse. More loyalists going over to Horus.

Yeah, there should be a significant chunk of backing and forthing like that going on (again, something we chewed over a lot at the Weekender, and in HH meetings more than once). I doubt Gav's unsubtle enough to make a Drizzt. Drizzt is a special case, because he's not just the good Bad Guy, he's also the absolute best at everything, ever. All of his "flaws" do nothing but make him more attractive to other characters, make him stronger in battle, or benefit him in some other way.

[Vesper]

I heard someone saying "Oh yeah, just like the Space Wolves" in the back of the room.

Even though, I must admit, I might have dreamed it.

[Emperor's Furor]

If you read Extermination, there's so much room for good Night Lords. It may be a bad example but they were very much Batman, hating the corruption, treachery and punishing those In fact it's noted that this may very well be the reason why officials didn't make as much fuss when they agreed to head to istvaan as they believed it was the Night Lords sticking close to their roots.

 

Many Terran Night Lords probably kept to this all through the gradual descent of the legion in to anarchy by Curze's deteriorating state. There's a couple of indications that Terran Night Lords were being killed off in extermination, for example the night lord who got stabbed in the back, or the entire terran squad being wiped out apart from one survivor who ended up disappearing from records.

 

I don't know whether the night lord in Ravenlord will come up again in future novels, he had one line but was also noted in the dramatis personae, but so did the warsmith who didn't say a word.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm going to take issue with ADB's acessment of Drizzt (for starters, I'm not sure how "So hung up about my past I wander off alone, get captured by my old pals, and require my friends to almost get killed bailing my angsty behind out" like Drizzt does in book 5 makes him stronger in battle, more attractive to other characters, or benefits him in some other way) but that argument goes waaaaaaay into non-40k territory.

 

I will say I think "Drizzt syndrome" is just a subset of a larger problem, which I can't think of a catchy name for but is basically writing a character with no definable traits but what he is. Ex:

 

"I am an Ultramarine. I am honorable and dutiful and by the book, in a vaguely Roman fashion. I have no other characteristics to distinguish me from any other Ultramarine or, indeed, the average hat rack."

 

Compare to, let's use Storm of Iron as an example. Kroeger, Honsou, and Foerrix are all Iron Warriors, but there's more to all three of them than:

 

"I like sieges. Except when I hate them so much I rebelled against the Emperor for making me besiege stuff. Hazard stripes are cool."

[Greyall]

Dantioch and Narek are two distinct examples of good rogues: Dantioch is a genuinely honoured guy who understands how he might not be well received at first.

 

Narek seems to be more broken inside, unwilling to compromise with any of the sides - he just wants to see Lorgar dead.

 

Both get logical results: Dantioch is eventually given critical tasks and Narek gets incarcerated.

 

Sociopaths who score points because they're sociopaths and not in spite of are indeed getting old. But even a loyalist Night Lord needs not be confined to answering each and every question with 'FU' to reminds us he's a Night Lord or to look cool. He'll likely have enough issues that'll do so for him, if well written.

[WGXH]

I'm going to take issue with ADB's acessment of Drizzt (for starters, I'm not sure how "So hung up about my past I wander off alone, get captured by my old pals, and require my friends to almost get killed bailing my angsty behind out" like Drizzt does in book 5 makes him stronger in battle, more attractive to other characters, or benefits him in some other way) but that argument goes waaaaaaay into non-40k territory.

 

I will say I think "Drizzt syndrome" is just a subset of a larger problem, which I can't think of a catchy name for but is basically writing a character with no definable traits but what he is. Ex:

 

"I am an Ultramarine. I am honorable and dutiful and by the book, in a vaguely Roman fashion. I have no other characteristics to distinguish me from any other Ultramarine or, indeed, the average hat rack."

 

Compare to, let's use Storm of Iron as an example. Kroeger, Honsou, and Foerrix are all Iron Warriors, but there's more to all three of them than:

 

"I like sieges. Except when I hate them so much I rebelled against the Emperor for making me besiege stuff. Hazard stripes are cool."

 

Was there? As I recall, if you added one final sentence for each character to your assessment there, you wouldn't be all too far off.

 

"I like sieges. Except when I hate them so much I rebelled against the Emperor for making me besiege stuff. Hazard stripes are cool. So is Khornate bloodlust."~ Kroeger

 

"I like sieges. Except when I hate them so much I rebelled against the Emperor for making me besiege stuff. Hazard stripes are cool. So is having a huge chip on my shoulder for being a half-breed."~ Hon(ourable)sou(laka)

 

"I like sieges. Except when I hate them so much I rebelled against the Emperor for making me besiege stuff. Hazard stripes are cool. So is killing Titans. You know, just like that show with the catchy music."~Forrix

 

Ultimatly it's all down to perception, but other than the fact that they had vaguely different motivations, their core personality was quite similar- at least to me.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

I'm going to take issue with ADB's acessment of Drizzt (for starters, I'm not sure how "So hung up about my past I wander off alone, get captured by my old pals, and require my friends to almost get killed bailing my angsty behind out" like Drizzt does in book 5 makes him stronger in battle, more attractive to other characters, or benefits him in some other way) but that argument goes waaaaaaay into non-40k territory.

 

 

Bear in mind I had to stop after 6 books, because that was all there was at the time, and by the time more were released I respected myself too much to continue reading them. But six freaking books is more than enough to establish a character, no matter what comes later. It's not just the fact that Drizzt's flaws make him more interesting to the reader (good characters do that), it's that they also make him more powerful in the world, and more appealing to the people around him. Add that to the fact his internal conflicts are actually about how much smarter and more moral he is than everyone else in his race, and how his exile has done nothing but grant him magical gifts and special snowflake girlfriends that no one else could win, and you've got a character written to appeal to boys in their early teenage years, with no depth behind it. 

 

Having one or two things that make you stand out, or flaws that can benefit you in other ways, is fine. Plenty of the best characters do that. Drizzt combines absolutely everything into a mess.

 

"I'm an exile from my own kind... because I'm the only one who has any morals. They're so ignorant. It's tragic, really. By the way, this isn't just my opinion. I'm really the only one deep enough to be good. The others are trapped in a culture that makes no sense and want to kill me, but I can ignore them because I'm too badass for them to threaten me."

 

"I'm a dark elf on the surface world. That means I'm like any other elf, but I have several magical innate abilities that other surface elves lack, which makes me better."

 

"I had to live alone for a decade and became an ultra-badass bestial hunter... which could've made me crazy, but the end result was really just that I'm better in combat."

 

"I'm a loner and an exile, which should be really tough going but I actually have the most loyal friends you can imagine and the greatest mentors possible, who taught me the ways of being a lethal renegade badass. Thank the gods that the only people who react to the fact I'm from the world's evillest race are idiots and peasants who don't threaten me. Everyone important or capable just immediately looks past my dark elfness and finds me interesting and brilliant."

 

"I'm pretty much the best swordsman ever, and my magical scimitar (which is famously enchanted with frost magic to harm creatures of flame) can also be set on fire to harm creatures vulnerable to fire."

 

"Sometimes I get given breathtakingly powerful magical swords for... reasons? I guess? I was given one of the most powerful swords in the world as a reward, by a stranger that had next to nothing to do with anything, for the quest of saving my own close friend, which I doing anyway. I sure earned that!"

 

"I'm incredibly handsome, to the point that many female characters pointedly find me attractive in the text. Lucky, that. Sure would suck to be a loner outcast who isn't handsome and admired by the wimminz."

 

/end off-topic. I've done essays of several thousands words on this character and his ilk.

[Kol Saresk]

And thus, the first anime character was born. In a DnD novel.

[Chronotonic]

Sorry I was reading this and might try to find a copy seems

 

I enjoyed the comments a lot but it is turning from the book to drizzt/night lord loyalist which makes me happy in my pants from the book which this topic is about

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem, for me at least (which means no one really cares :P), is that all the traitor legions were clearly going to rebel from the outset. This is not the fault of anyone, given that they had to conform to what came before, but largely it was done with very little deviancy from how they were 10,000 years later in the earliest books. The Emperor's Children, for example, became full on chaos after a concert. Horus decided to betray the Emperor because he didn't get a statue. Angron and Mortarion, just because Horus asked. A D-B has done a good job of correcting this on Lord of the Red Sands by turning Angron into a cerebrally militated Thomas Paine. He also made Kurze the most believable traitor, using Kurze's psychic curse as a catalyst for progressive degradation. The other authors seem bent on :cuss that up, though.

 

On the flip side, all of the loyalists were unquestioningly loyal and always would've been. Instead of Ferrus Manus agonizing over his bond with Horus and Fulgrim, he gets hit in the face with a hammer and commits sudoku via drop pod. The recent Imperium Secundus has been poorly handled, because there is no believability to it. There is no political scheming on Guilliman's part that makes us view him as more concerned about a future for the Imperium than the life of the Emperor. I mean, am I the only one who thinks Guilliman putting the future of mankind over the life of the Emperor would be a tasty bit of Classical Realism that would add some serious depth?

 

We are treated to book after book of plot lines that fall into the 'video game plot' trap. Small bits of important developments interspersed with large tracts of violence. It's like Gears of War, where you have an insanely emotional storyline about Dom's wife summed up by him shooting her and getting back to killing. It's understandable in video games, because you're paying to kill stuff on your TV. 30K novels have a unique benefit in being in the exact position to fill in the background of the violence we get from our own games.

 

Helsreach was great because the violence was minimal and the story was more about Imperials dealing with the largest ork threat since Ullanor. I know Grimaldus can swing a crozius, I can do that with my own model. I can't, however, know how Grimaldus felt by being exiled from a pick up game.

 

There is a general lack of understanding about power, coercion, and conflict resolution in these books. Battles and Campaigns don't win wars, the Imperial Bank or Warmaster's treasury does. What about the planets taken by the Warmaster? How are they occupied? Who pays to rebuild them. This is why Chaos is an unbelievable antagonist. It can't win. It doesn't run factories or finance campaigns. It doesn't deal with population apathy.

 

The Horus Herwsy series was an opportunity to build a world untouched by the fumbling at the design studio, and with the exception of a few authors, they are just writing stories about 40K with only 20 flavor a of space marines. There is no world building or believable politics.

[Chronotonic]

The problem, for me at least (which means no one really cares ), is that all the traitor legions were clearly going to rebel from the outset. This is not the fault of anyone, given that they had to conform to what came before, but largely it was done with very little deviancy from how they were 10,000 years later in the earliest books. The Emperor's Children, for example, became full on chaos after a concert. Horus decided to betray the Emperor because he didn't get a statue. Angron and Mortarion, just because Horus asked. A D-B has done a good job of correcting this on Lord of the Red Sands by turning Angron into a cerebrally militated Thomas Paine. He also made Kurze the most believable traitor, using Kurze's psychic curse as a catalyst for progressive degradation. The other authors seem bent on that up, though.

On the flip side, all of the loyalists were unquestioningly loyal and always would've been. Instead of Ferrus Manus agonizing over his bond with Horus and Fulgrim, he gets hit in the face with a hammer and commits sudoku via drop pod. The recent Imperium Secundus has been poorly handled, because there is no believability to it. There is no political scheming on Guilliman's part that makes us view him as more concerned about a future for the Imperium than the life of the Emperor. I mean, am I the only one who thinks Guilliman putting the future of mankind over the life of the Emperor would be a tasty bit of Classical Realism that would add some serious depth?

We are treated to book after book of plot lines that fall into the 'video game plot' trap. Small bits of important developments interspersed with large tracts of violence. It's like Gears of War, where you have an insanely emotional storyline about Dom's wife summed up by him shooting her and getting back to killing. It's understandable in video games, because you're paying to kill stuff on your TV. 30K novels have a unique benefit in being in the exact position to fill in the background of the violence we get from our own games.

Helsreach was great because the violence was minimal and the story was more about Imperials dealing with the largest ork threat since Ullanor. I know Grimaldus can swing a crozius, I can do that with my own model. I can't, however, know how Grimaldus felt by being exiled from a pick up game.

There is a general lack of understanding about power, coercion, and conflict resolution in these books. Battles and Campaigns don't win wars, the Imperial Bank or Warmaster's treasury does. What about the planets taken by the Warmaster? How are they occupied? Who pays to rebuild them. This is why Chaos is an unbelievable antagonist. It can't win. It doesn't run factories or finance campaigns. It doesn't deal with population apathy.

The Horus Herwsy series was an opportunity to build a world untouched by the fumbling at the design studio, and with the exception of a few authors, they are just writing stories about 40K with only 20 flavor a of space marines. There is no world building or believable politics.

BOOM

[GhostMalone]

Ehhh negativity for the sake of negativity

 

Everyone ripped on nick Kyme and scorched earth.

 

 

 

 

 

One of my favourite books to date

[Ekim_Trub]

I found the one sentence on pg.59 where Corax talks about him and Horus pretty interesting. ;)

[Conn Eremon]

I found the one sentence on pg.59 where Corax talks about him and Horus pretty interesting. ;)

You can't say that and then not quote that sentence in a spoiler.

[b1soul]

Loyalist Night Lord sounds fine to me. I'm sure every legion has its outcasts who think differently from the mainstream 

 

Sevatar turned GK Grandmaster...not really looking forward to that 

[Ekim_Trub]

For Cormac Airt.

Corax talking with Arcatus (a Custode.)

'What is impossible, to my mind,' Arcatus continued, 'is the notion that Horus would even embark on such a cataclysmis course of action without being absolutely certain he would win. Throughout the Great Crusade, Horus proved time and time again that he was capable of great victories, conquering swathes of the galaxy through planning, charisma and sheer bloody-minedness.'
'He is also adept at utilising the strengths of his brothers to his best advantage,' added Corax, somewhat bitterly. 'Always ready to ask his brothers to sacrifice their legions in the shadows, away from the annals and picts of the remembrancers; always arriving in time to deliver the final blow. I stuck Horus once for usurping the victories of the Raven Guard for his own glory, a moment that no doubt festers in the Warmaster's thoughts. I aim to repeat the insult, whenever I can.'

[Greyall]

Most likely the siege mentioned in Extermination.

 

But does Corax get to answer the Custodes' main question? Why does Horus embark on this without absolute certainty, in Corax's view?

[Emperor's Furor]

Because of the little things that slow down his progress, and impede, like the loss of a supply convoy, of the retaking of worlds conquered etc it all adds up, it's at the core of why Corax is still fighting.

[Greyall]

Thanks, WoT :)

 

With the Heresy advancing, someting very interesting is about to be lost: the 'equal footing' of both factions in moral terms, the kind that's making Corax think if he's really different from the monster-breeders (I assume he knows the geneseed has been tampered with, right?) on the heretic side. It's cool that for now the Heresy remains more ideological or at least grounded due to the lack of knowledge about Chaos. It'll make it (it should) all the more shocking once the traitors start going "spikymode".

[Wade Garrett]

Drizzt combines absolutely everything into a mess.

 

Challenge.... accepted.

 

"I'm an exile from my own kind... because I'm the only one who has any morals. They're so ignorant. It's tragic, really. By the way, this isn't just my opinion. I'm really the only one deep enough to be good. The others are trapped in a culture that makes no sense...

"Guys? The Warrior Lodges are cool and all, but all this stuff about turning on the Emperor, I mean, what's up with that?"

-Gavriel Loken

 

"Errrr...maybe we shouldn't be quite so head up rear end arrogant all the time? I'm just saying? Plus, how exactly do drugs and weird alien organs make us more perfect?"

-Saul Tarvitz

 

"I had to live alone for a decade and became an ultra-badass bestial hunter... which could've made me crazy, but the end result was really just that I'm better in combat."

"Well, that's enough talking to the head of my dead friend, obsessively squishing spiders, and recreating in exacting detail gardens where I hung out with the Mournival. Begone, mental trauma! Except for you, split personality Cerberus that makes me an unstoppable beserker in combat. You can stay."

-Gavriel Loken

 

"Everyone important or capable just immediately looks past my dark elfness and finds me interesting and brilliant."

"After our conversations that happened off screen, I've decided to look past your innate Iron Warriorness and become super unicorn princess pony pals best friends forever with you, to the point that I'd rather hang out on Sothis at your side than try to make it back to Terra with my Primarch."

-Alexis Polux, to Warsmith Dantioch

 

But seriously? I think I know how this ends. You aren't going to argue me out of liking Drizzt, and I am fairly certain I'll be unable to argue you into liking him.

 

So, as you say....

 

[/off topic]

[Wade Garrett]

To get back on track...ye gods and wee fishes, does Corax end the spoilered text passage by dragging his lighting claws back and forth over his wrists to make the pain go away? Perhaps there's context I'm missing, but that's just....

 

"Yes, yes, Custodian, Horus is burning the entire galaxy. But do you remember how he was always stealing all the glorious glory from my Legion during the Great Crusade? He took the light, and left us alone in the dark, the shame crawling in our skin, like wounds that never heal."

[Greyall]

In Vengeful Spirit Abaddon is said to have joked at Ulanor that the Ultras and Scars spearhead was just a distraction to clear the way for the Luna Wolves.

 

For which he got whooped by Tauro Nicodemus.

 

So may Corax's words aren't just grudge-born

[Wade Garrett]

In Vengeful Spirit Abaddon is said to have joked at Ulanor that the Ultras and Scars spearhead was just a distraction to clear the way for the Luna Wolves.

 

For which he got whooped by Tauro Nicodemus.

 

Of course he did. Of course he did. Just like the "finest swordsman in the Emperor's Children" got gutted by a Raven Guard line trooper.

 

Because obviously, the best way to write characters who will be powerful and feared warlords of Chaos is to have them lose like chumps to whatever Original Character Loyalist we're supposed to in awe of in this particular novel.

 

Edit:

Let me be clear, I'm not saying Khârn, Lucius, Abaddon, Ahriman, and Typhon should never lose, Khârn's fight with Legatus Orfeo is one of my favorite parts of Betrayer, but they shouldn't always lose all the time. In the grim darkness of the far future, sometimes the Red Team comes out on top.