Ravenlord

[Karthak]

 

In Vengeful Spirit Abaddon is said to have joked at Ulanor that the Ultras and Scars spearhead was just a distraction to clear the way for the Luna Wolves.

 

For which he got whooped by Tauro Nicodemus.

Of course he did. Of course he did. Just like the "finest swordsman in the Emperor's Children" got gutted by a Raven Guard line trooper.

I know I should agree with you, but I dislike Lucius so much I would cheer if he got savaged by ewoks. :D

[Emperor's Furor]

Pretty sure Sharrowkyn wasn't just a line trooper, get the feeling he was a member of the Mor Deythan (Shadow Masters) or Corax's elite bodyguard the Mor Dretha (Shadow Wardens) since he had the ability to "wraith-slip" and that was only found in these units.

[Greyall]

@Wade: You misunderstood, my point was that if the 1st Captain's view on other Legions' collaborating in a campaign was that of 'bait', then Corax's view on Horus taking all the glory for himself might not be completely off - Horus and Abby being separate characters, there's a 'Legion mentality' on some matters. And we've read enough about Horus to know he likes them laurels.

 

The Nicodemus part was comical relief. Though, really, Abaddon still hasn't proven to be a skill powerhouse - I'm starting to think that's one of his traits (no negativity intended), he's a teamplayer and a bulldozer, not a duelist.

[MadDoc]

Pretty sure Sharrowkyn wasn't just a line trooper, get the feeling he was a member of the Mor Deythan (Shadow Masters) or Corax's elite bodyguard the Mor Dretha (Shadow Wardens) since he had the ability to "wraith-slip" and that was only found in these units.

WoT ninja'd me by seconds...

 

I'm pretty sure Sharrowkyn was Mor Deythan, since, as WoT states, he could "wraith-slip". Which isn't something a line trooper would be able to do.

[Vesper]

In Vengeful Spirit Abaddon is said to have joked at Ulanor that the Ultras and Scars spearhead was just a distraction to clear the way for the Luna Wolves.

For which he got whooped by Tauro Nicodemus.

Of course he did. Of course he did. Just like the "finest swordsman in the Emperor's Children" got gutted by a Raven Guard line trooper.

I know I should agree with you, but I dislike Lucius so much I would cheer if he got savaged by ewoks.

To be fair, at this point, i'd rather have him rectoned out of existence, as he serves no purpose and is a major failure from a writing perspective.

EDIT : Oh, and speaking of failures, same treatment for Sharrowkyn.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Pretty sure Sharrowkyn wasn't just a line trooper, get the feeling he was a member of the Mor Deythan (Shadow Masters) or Corax's elite bodyguard the Mor Dretha (Shadow Wardens) since he had the ability to "wraith-slip" and that was only found in these units.

WoT ninja'd me by seconds...

 

I'm pretty sure Sharrowkyn was Mor Deythan, since, as WoT states, he could "wraith-slip". Which isn't something a line trooper would be able to do.

 

 

Sharrowkyn describes himself as a line trooper.

 

Also, Nicodemus is a Triarch. Command structure wise, he'd be on the same level as Abaddon. So..... yeah. It's even better than Loken punching Lucius since its one of the Legion elites doing it.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

Pretty sure Sharrowkyn wasn't just a line trooper, get the feeling he was a member of the Mor Deythan (Shadow Masters) or Corax's elite bodyguard the Mor Dretha (Shadow Wardens) since he had the ability to "wraith-slip" and that was only found in these units.

WoT ninja'd me by seconds...

 

I'm pretty sure Sharrowkyn was Mor Deythan, since, as WoT states, he could "wraith-slip". Which isn't something a line trooper would be able to do.

 

Sharrowkyn describes himself as a line trooper.

 

Also, Nicodemus is a Triarch. Command structure wise, he'd be on the same level as Abaddon. So..... yeah. It's even better than Loken punching Lucius since its one of the Legion elites doing it.

I wouldn't trust that description imo, McNeil isn't really the "head" of the raven guard legion, Gav Thorpe seems to be.

[Phoebus]

Thanks, WoT

With the Heresy advancing, someting very interesting is about to be lost: the 'equal footing' of both factions in moral terms, the kind that's making Corax think if he's really different from the monster-breeders (I assume he knows the geneseed has been tampered with, right?) on the heretic side. It's cool that for now the Heresy remains more ideological or at least grounded due to the lack of knowledge about Chaos. It'll make it (it should) all the more shocking once the traitors start going "spikymode".

I personally don't think there ever was "equal footing ... in moral terms" in this fight.

Horus's decision to rebel was informed partly by Lorgar's faction playing up to his nascent megalomania, partly by trying to fool him with a biased vision of a future that was, in fact, contingent on him rebelling to begin with. His complaint, that the Emperor abandoned him and his brothers, is laughable. It assumes that the Emperor was a normal father to begin with, that he was perceived as such by the primarchs, or that any of the primarchs were in need of father-figures when they were found. Each of them was a warlord or a ruler in their own right. The fates of worlds (or, at least, a lot of people) revolved around their whim.

Among his allies, Horus counted Angron, a brain-damaged berserker with an unresolved penchant for hypocrisy (his hatred of Imperial tyranny aside, he never expresses any guilt for unnecessarily butchering entire populations). Then there was the equally troubled (mentally, psychologically) Night Haunter, whose legion's abuses were hardly inspired by a desire for justice and order. Then we had Fulgrim, whose narcissism combined with daemonic influence to put him on his path. Then there was Alpharius, who was never even on Horus's side. And then there was Magnus, who was actually put in the position of rebelling by Horus.

Perturabo and Mortarion alone have complaints that have some merit to them. Lorgar is the only true believer, and his chief complaint is that the Emperor suppressed the truth about the same thirsting gods who brought humanity to its knees during the Age of Strife.

Don't get me wrong. The Imperium of Man was always a tyrannical entity that was willing to use horrific violence to ensure the unity of man, used lobotomized slaves, etc. The loyal primarchs were guilty of imposing totalitarian rule on their people, fomenting conflict among them, or leaving them in inhuman conditions. The individual commanders, governors, etc., that carried out the Emperor's vision may very well have been arbitrarily ruthless and oppressive. At the end of the day, though, the Imperium's abuses were not arbitrary. The Emperor himself knew exactly what the reality of the universe was. His is morality on the macro scale: the ultimate survival of the species is a greater priority than respecting individual rights and the value of human life for a few centuries.

As such, it's very frustrating to me when "Ravenlord" even tries to suggest some sort of moral equivalency between Corax and Fabius Bile. It's such a stretch.

[Phoebus]

Incidentally, is it such a big deal that one of the four best Ultramarines out there (one of the Tetrarchs;  the Triarchs were Iron Warriors) could put a stomping on Abaddon outside of a battlefield?  If there's something wrong with Abaddon's record, it's not Tauro showing that he's not invincible:  it's that he's more often shown being bellicose or beating up on peons.  No one has bothered giving Abaddon a "moment in the sun" - taking out an Eldar Autarch, an Ork Warboss, or some other enemy champion.  His one big fight involved him stomping Loken - and that was more due to Abaddon wearing Terminator armour.

[Vesper]

Actually, it was mostly due to Loken smartly attacking Abaddon's Terminator armor instead of his bare head.

If you have a big armor, you're kind of happy if your opponent lands a blow where you feel nothing. That means you can safely dispose of him while he's off balance. You may even want him to hit you just so you get to land an easy blow on him.

Big armors are quite useful.

[Wade Garrett]

The "moral equivalency" between Corax and Bile might have some traction if we were still going by Index Astartes: Raven Guard, where he deliberately turned aspirants into monsters using experimental techniques to rebuild the XIX at a hyperaccelerated pace after Isstvan.

 

But since Deliverance Lost retconned that into: He used a magic potion the Emperor personally signed off on, and the only reason it made monsters instead of Super Astartes was the Alpha Legion....

 

Nope. Not buying it.

[Scribe]

The Emperor didnt sign off on it actually, Corax found a way to make BETTER marines. ;)

[Vesper]

Better marines ? Space "Executioners" Wolves ? :p

[Emperor's Furor]

Raptors are meant to be better than normal marines, at least the first batch of raptors.

[Scribe]

Not only meant, but in practice very much where from what I recall. Corax unlocked the whole grail, better than the Big E, and if not for AL shenanigans, would have comically undone all of his factions previous fluff...the less I say the better.

[Phoebus]

I'm by no means making a commentary abut how good or bad Novel X is.  All I'm saying is that, as written, the Horus Heresy series doesn'really leave room for the likes of Nathian to try to guilt-trip Corax.

[Reinholt]

So what we're saying is that this is not the thread for my 10,000 word essay on why Argel Tal is actually the 40k version of Drizzt?

[Greyall]

I'm by no means making a commentary abut how good or bad Novel X is.  All I'm saying is that, as written, the Horus Heresy series doesn'really leave room for the likes of Nathian to try to guilt-trip Corax.

 

And yet he feels that guilt, and really, some of the traitor Legions had grounded (as in, not exclusively chaos-fuelled) reasons to turn against the Emperor. That all goes to hell as things get spikier, but the initial rebellion is born from Chaos opening some spittle-closed wounds...

 

Of course, like you, I see absolutely no point in Corax second-guessing him this much, but I find it interesting that he does so. Like I said, Corax is suprisingly turning out to be a very good guy.

[ShadowMaster]

Ravenlord was pretty horrible to read, forced my way through it.

[Phoebus]

Greyall, 

 

Well, yeah, as much as I think it's disingenuous that he's getting that kind of moral equivalency thrown at him, I can't deny the canon - which is that Corax does feel said guilt.  As for him turning out to be a good guy, I'm not at all surprised.  Corax was always one of the primarchs whose pre-Emperor conduct was very righteous.  He, Sanguinius, Mortarion, Magnus, and Vulkan seem to be the five primarchs who didn't wage wars of conquest, genuinely cared about their people, and wasn't driven by personal ambition.

 

As for the traitor legions?  Nah.  Let's agree to disagree.  You have my thoughts on them, above.  :)

[Kol Saresk]

That was the kicker about Corax. He actually was a liberator. So when he chose to create clones and then used the mutated ones as shock troops in blitzkrieg kamikazes, it was supposed this huge shocking change in character brought about by the Istvaan V Massacre. But even after the Heresy, there was just enough decency left that he felt guilt over the atrocities he had committed and decided to personally end the pain-filled existence of every clone before leaving to seek penance and self-exile.

 

Of course, now the clones are actual people(hoory humanization[/sarcasm]) so its anyone's guess how it will turn out.

[Augustus]

Phoebus,

Mortarion may claim that he cares for people but IMO the way in which his legion operates conflicts with his reasoning.

[Greyall]

It could also be that he found the clones, even when mutated, to have a right to live and fight for their Chapter. If they stayed loyal to Corax, they either retained some sentience or devolved to basic animal instincs and followed their 'owner'.

 

Either way, it seems plausible that Corax's first reaction isn't a bolter round to the brain.

 

Of course there's really no solid ground to compare Corax's and Fabius Bile's tinkering with Astartes geneseed, but for Corax to see his men turned into monsters must've fallen very close to the slavery/owning other people's lives end of his moral spectrum.

[Wade Garrett]

Don't forget that there was a Primarch who united his world with trade, science, and political prowess, who made his planet into a paradise without ever needing to even raise a standing army. His name was Fulgrim.

 

Or maybe you can forget all that, Graham McNeil certainly did when he got tapped to write the III.

[Kol Saresk]

It could also be that he found the clones, even when mutated, to have a right to live and fight for their Chapter. If they stayed loyal to Corax, they either retained some sentience or devolved to basic animal instincs and followed their 'owner'.

 

Either way, it seems plausible that Corax's first reaction isn't a bolter round to the brain.

 

Of course there's really no solid ground to compare Corax's and Fabius Bile's tinkering with Astartes geneseed, but for Corax to see his men turned into monsters must've fallen very close to the slavery/owning other people's lives end of his moral spectrum.

Well the bolter to the brain was the last resort. Sort of "The War is over. You've done your duty. Now have peace."

 

And while there aren't glaring similarities between him and Bile, there is the fact "both created monsters and then used those monsters to achieve their goals".