Space Wolf "Watchdog" Squads: Not a silly idea if done right

[b1soul]

I always chuckle at the idea of sending a single Space Wolf squad to execute a Primarch if he shows signs of treachery. It makes more sense to send a dozen or so Custodes (even then...you'd probably need more than a dozen Custodes to ensure that a Primarch dies)

 

However, having the chance to execute a rogue Primarch is not the main utility of inserting these squads into the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and other legions...as that chance is slim to zero.  

 

I think the Space Wolf "watchdog" squads are best characterised an early warning system. 

 

If a primarch goes renegade, chances are he'd like to give the Imperium a nasty surprise. He wouldn't want the Imperium to be prepared for his treachery. Imagine if a secretly Traitor Legion were incorporated into the defence of Terra. For instance, if the Blood Angels suddenly revealed themselves to be Traitors at the Siege. I think that'd be Malcador's worst nightmare. 

 

Malcador is probably hoping that the Space Wolves will be able to accurately assess the loyalty of monitored legions. If they sniff out treachery, their job is to get word to Terra that a particular Primarch is a traitor. Furthermore, should contact with the Wolves be lost for a prolonged period. That would arouse suspicion.

 

If the Wolves find themselves in turncoat legion. Their first job is of course to try to get word back to the Imperium. Their second job is to try to kill that primarch (despite the abysmal chance of success). The Wolves would want to sniff out treachery without alerting the host legion to their knowledge of such treachery. 

 

I mean...it's really not a silly idea unless an authour fails to apply logic and simply goes the route of "Wolves are badass executioners, therefore they are there to execute a traitor Primarch" 

[Grimtooth]

I think that with the frank admission in Fear to Tread that they would die is what would basically be the early warning system for Terra.  However, in that case the Wolves do indeed die, albeit not due to treachery on part of Sang.  The saving grace for the Angels not being them labeled as traitors would be them meeting up with Guilliman after the whole Signus Prime incident.

 

I do wonder if the quote of having a member of the Rout within "killing" distance of Sang at all times would really be the tactics to kill him or just give the Wolves an early warning system of their own that in turn would allow the rest of them to blow up the plasma drives or overload the warp engines of Sang's ship to enact sanction.

[b1soul]

It would be best for Terra if they actually got a message from the Wolves to the effect of

 

"Primarch so-and-so is a total traitor

 

Loyally yours,

 

Your friendly Space Wolves" 

 

As I've said, loss of communication could mean treachery but it could also mean a lot of other things. 

[svane jotunsbane]

I guess its part of the bluster, with their main reason being the early warning alert system, with the "killing a primarch" as a secondary mission, even if its a slim to anorexic chance of success, though a squad of AL did nearly kill roboute, as well as a couple of gunships nearly killing 3 primarchs so I suppose anything is possible in the right circumstances. 

so I suppose their main purpose is to be "watchdogs" pardon the pun. they can either stay and assess if a primarch/legion is being naughty or they might have a failsafe built in that's if a squad doesn't report in as a result of being eliminated by said primarch/legion. and I can see them accepting these tasks even if they know its suicide as a result of the way the wolves have been portrayed in the HH series.

[Relict]

How, then, would the Space Wolves expect to get their weekly reports of "Guilliman is building a potentially heretical Imperium, but so far no confirmed signs of heresy" from Ultramar to Terra? Remember that all of Ultramar is still cut off due to the Ruinstorm.

[Grimtooth]

How, then, would the Space Wolves expect to get their weekly reports of "Guilliman is building a potentially heretical Imperium, but so far no confirmed signs of heresy" from Ultramar to Terra? Remember that all of Ultramar is still cut off due to the Ruinstorm.

Not to mention that the messages from the Custodes while with the Word Bearers were being manipulated by sorcery.

 

I really have no idea how they are supposed to report back who is good to go and who has cuddled up with Horus.  This makes me wonder if there were questionable legions, pure traitors, and pure loyalists that Malcador knew and then only sent the packs to the questionable.  Granted there is the whole, "if one son tuned (Magnus) others might as well" which hints that they only knew of Magnus disobeying and and thus everyone with exception to the Wolves were of questionable status.

 

However, with the millions of ways to die in the universe, the sudden disappearance of a pack when seconded to a quetionable legion would not raise any eyebrows.  For example, the BA could have just as easily been traitor and told Malcador that the Wolves died in a horrible battle on Signus Prime, wink wink.  Something yet unknown must have been in place beyond just the sudden death of a pack to alert Terra.  Maybe the answer lies in the fact that the Wolves openly had a rune priest with them post Nikkea when they arrived to rendevouz with the BA?

[svane jotunsbane]

perhaps then in GW's eyes a squad of space marines(from any legion) is possibly able to eliminate/neutralise a primarch if given the right conditions. while certainly not easy its still within the realm of possibilities.

or perhaps they are there as a additional source of security/bodyguard, who has no additional legion responsibilities except following around /sniffing behind the primarch.

[Grimtooth]

perhaps then in GW's eyes a squad of space marines(from any legion) is possibly able to eliminate/neutralise a primarch if given the right conditions. while certainly not easy its still within the realm of possibilities.

or perhaps they are there as a additional source of security/bodyguard, who has no additional legion responsibilities except following around /sniffing behind the primarch.

Well from our perspective, the whole primarchs are essentially immortal thing is moot considering what happened to Ferrus.  The same can be said of Magnus with regard to being spirited away at the last moment on Prospero when he made his deal with Tzneetch.  However, the pack with the BA questions if it is even possible which makes me think that it would not be so much as opening fire on Sang personally, but as I mentioned earlier, blowing up his ship via overloaded plasma drives or warp engines.  Not sure even a primarch is surviving that explosion and resultant void exposure (unless you are Vulkan).

[Clone]

A squad of Alpha Legionnaires almost topped Guilliman. Before anyone rages against that piece of fluff, Angron was said to have been killed by Space Wolf bolters if the order was given. Horus himself in Vengeful Spirit repeatedly mentions that Primarchs are tough but not immortal, especially when he fights a group ultramarines. A squad of custodes had a chance at killing Lorgar in the First Heretic, if only that custodes teleport beacon worked.

 

I think we've all got used to the idea that Primarchs are almost impossible to kill when it seems they are easier to kill than first thought.

[b1soul]

Angron was said to have been killed by Space Wolf bolters if the order was given. 

 

A claim by the Wolves.

 

Hard to say what would have happened had Angron went in for the kill against a beaten Russ. The Wolves would've opened fire but would they have been able to put him down quickly enough to save Russ? Let's say Russ gets gutted and now the Wolves are firing on Angron. Would Mr. "I bench press Titans and survive mountains of rubble collapsing on me" be unable to hack his way out?  

[Clone]

 

 

 

Angron was said to have been killed by Space Wolf bolters if the order was given.

A claim by the Wolves.

 

Hard to say what would have happened had Angron went in for the kill against a beaten Russ. The Wolves would've opened fire but would they have been able to put him down quickly enough to save Russ? Let's say Russ gets gutted and now the Wolves are firing on Angron. Would Mr. "I bench press Titans and survive mountains of rubble collapsing on me" be unable to hack his way out?

Angron likely could've killed Russ before the wolves could stop him but he'd be suffering multiple hits from multiple directions. Angron wouldn't have been able to kill all the wolves. Roboute was severely injured from 10 legionaries remember. If horus was worried about 30 ultramarines while clad in terminator armour and in the thick of melee combat, I don't doubt Angron could've been topped at range. Besides, that was Lorgars whole point to Angron in Betrayer.

[Plague Angel]

 

 

Angron was said to have been killed by Space Wolf bolters if the order was given.

 

A claim by the Wolves.

 

 

And backed up by Lorgar.

[svane jotunsbane]

well if you read into it a little bit, there where enough packs surrounding angron and russ, that they were able to hold back the WE dred (lorkar was his name)? and other We's trying to break through the wolves cordon, in a legion vs legion altercation that im sure there where more than just 1 squad of wolves with bolters. im sure there were other weapon systems(plasma guns meltas etc) amongst X number of marines besides just bolters.

[Grimtooth]

 

Angron was said to have been killed by Space Wolf bolters if the order was given. 

 

A claim by the Wolves.

 

Hard to say what would have happened had Angron went in for the kill against a beaten Russ. The Wolves would've opened fire but would they have been able to put him down quickly enough to save Russ? Let's say Russ gets gutted and now the Wolves are firing on Angron. Would Mr. "I bench press Titans and survive mountains of rubble collapsing on me" be unable to hack his way out?  

I can't find it right now being away from my books, but didn't Angron have to pull back from engagements a couple of times due to overwhelming fire?  IIRC, at the site of the massacre and on Istvaan 3. 

 

In this case the Wolves only need to open fire long enough to distract Angron, not put him down.  Russ was already up on his feet when Angron went to give chase.  Opening fire on Angron could have been just enough for Russ to move in for the kill himself.

[b1soul]

 

Angron likely could've killed Russ before the wolves could stop him but he'd be suffering multiple hits from multiple directions. Angron wouldn't have been able to kill all the wolves. 

 

Don't disagree with you. It would be hard to extricate himself from that position...unless a wave of World Eaters manage to save him (by accident) 

 

 

 

And backed up by Lorgar.

 

Yes but Lorgar wasn't even there. His opinion is his opinion. I'll agree with him that Russ made a strong point. It doesn't even matter whether Angron could've survived the Wolves pointing their guns at him. The point was that the Wolves at least tried to help their Primarch. The WE abandoned Angron completely. 

[Plague Angel]

Oh come on, guys. The Wolves could have gunned Angron down if Russ hadn't ordered them not to.

 

Russ said so.

 

Lorgar said so.

 

Angron said so.

 

We can admit that solitary event happened without having to sign on 10000% to the Executioners #1 Undefeated of the East interpretation. But the anti-hype backlash against the Wolves is just as silly as the hype, these days.

 

In Unremembered Empire, for example, it's clear the pack is there to decide whether or not to try to kill Guilliman, not to report on his loyalty to anyone. It's a hollow, stubborn threat and they know they won't be able to back it up, but their pride compels them to make the threat anyways, empty or not.

[svane jotunsbane]

im not sure how to do spoilers so ill just say spoiler alert here, but don't 3 fire raptor gunships nearly kill horus, mortarion and fulgrim at the same time in an ambush? so its not outside the realms of possibility that units of legions astartes would be able to take a primarch down. I know 3 gunships are a different kettle of fish to a squad of marines but the primarchs aren't the immortal, invincible beings some people would have us believe.

[Karthak]

Didn't ADB also confirm that the watch packs were basically to serve as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak? Also regarding the Angron thing, wasn't there like, a hundred Wolves pointing their guns at Angron? Even a Primarch would be chewed up by that.

[Grimtooth]

Didn't ADB also confirm that the watch packs were basically to serve as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak? Also regarding the Angron thing, wasn't there like, a hundred Wolves pointing their guns at Angron? Even a Primarch would be chewed up by that.

Dont know if he said that but I would agree on that point completely and stand on the idea that any actions probably would not be directly at a primarch if possible but by other means as I have mentioned.

[b1soul]

Oh come on, guys. The Wolves could have gunned Angron down if Russ hadn't ordered them not to.

 

Russ said so.

 

Lorgar said so.

 

Angron said so.

 

Probably.

 

Likely only after Angron finishes off Russ  

 

Then the Wolves might be able to whittle down Angron...but Angron is freakishly fast compared to Astartes (as are all primarchs), he'd get stuck into the Wolves real fast.

 

Eventually Angron would probably go down under the weight of numbers 

[Relict]

Remember that Guilliman was both unarmored and unarmed when he got jumped by the Alpha Legion infiltrators (most likely specially selected just for this mission and equipped with bolters loaded with banestrike shells). 

 

Primarchs are immortal, not invulnerable. Without the involvement of the Emperor/another Primarch, I would liken killing one with "conventional means" to killing a starfish. A starfish that has had one or more arms severed will regenerate over time. To kill one, you have to damage it beyond the point of recovery (incineration in a fire, blown up with firecrackers, etc.). Primarchs are the same way. 

 

Would a fully-armored Angron have survived ten SWs armed with bolters opening up on him? Perhaps. A hundred SWs? Doubtful. Remember that during the Battle of Armatura, Lorgar was badly injured by a Warhound's plasma weapon - had said Warhound not been taken out in time, it most likely would have finished him and Angron. Primarchs can be hurt by conventional means - they bleed like everyone else, but given a little time they will heal quickly. To kill one would likely require substantial numbers (remember that Dorn was killed during a Black Crusade by massed Chaos Space Marines/Daemons) or substantial firepower (a Titan's primary weapon or a starship's reactor going critical).

[Kol Saresk]

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

 

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

 

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

[SW1]

IMO they're sent as a message. If they notice seething up they have the stubbornness required to die trying to stop it and maybe with having a rune priest along they might be able to put down or at least damage something. The main thing is the message it sends arguing over anything else seems a mute point.

 

The Russ/Angron thing was Russ not trying to kill Angron. He was delivering a message again. The Rout as in the entire force worked together to encircle the primarchs having a 'discussion' while Angrons lads left their father to be surrounded and cut off. It cost the Rout many lives, but they did as they were told. If the hadn't held back then having Angron surrounded by most of the Legion he didn't stand a chance. From reading the book I see it as 100's if not more surrounding them rather the 10's.

 

Lol ... I like the Rout but have just painted them as the Emperors messenger boys. It doesn't sit well in my gut but the more I think about it the more I see them as the wolf sent in to act as a watch dog.

[b1soul]

The Russ/Angron thing was Russ not trying to kill Angron. 

 

Coupled with Angron showing a degree of restraint himself...more restraint than Russ at times. It wasn't Angron who charged Russ

[SW1]

 

 

 

The Russ/Angron thing was Russ not trying to kill Angron.

Coupled with Angron showing a degree of restraint himself...more restraint than Russ at times. It wasn't Angron who charged Russ

Not sure we've read the same book?

 

I simply put what my thoughts were after reading the book a while ago, it's my opinion only.

 

You've already put what you think, in fact I think we're all more than aware of what you think reading the thread. You also seem to be the only one really with such a big chip on your shoulder about it. So I'm quite happy to just disagree and leave the childish my primarchs better than yours to the kids.

 

If you want to continue in your line of discussion I'll happily re-read the book at some point when I have time/can actually be bothered and then we can have a nice discussion using actual quotes from the books rather than it says xyz.

 

I like a good argument when it's based on fact. A good % of my working day is spent 'discussing' things with people who think they are in the right. While at work I'm not allowed to mock them while I do it (dam that 100% call recording). My wife's reading this over my shoulder so I've got to behave now as well. :(

 

Edit: lol ... I've just got a slap around the back of the head from the wife for posting the last bit.