Space Wolf "Watchdog" Squads: Not a silly idea if done right

[A D-B]

I ended up writing a little about the 'watch-pack' idea recently in a Space Wolf short story, and in the synopsis for Master of Mankind (I need to start that bad boy in 4 weeks). It won't be a quick answer, obviously, but it should hopefully (...) reveal a little more clarity on the subject.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

 

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

 

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

 

If they are sent as a throwaway plan - "if it works, it works" - then the variables are less of an issue. If they can get a message out, great, if not then the Imperium isn't really any worse off than not knowing in the first place. All the better if they are on scene and can kill the treachery at roo - though I've by no means stating this includes whatever the -icide is for killing Primarchs.

 

In my view, and I believed this is echoed by some others here, it is more of a statement of intent than any practical response to needing and early-warning system. Obviously, the message the Legions should take is that "we are watching..." but realistically this isn't going to have much of an effect on post-human armoured 8 foot tall killers.

[SW1]

I ended up writing a little about the 'watch-pack' idea recently in a Space Wolf short story, and in the synopsis for Master of Mankind (I need to start that bad boy in 4 weeks). It won't be a quick answer, obviously, but it should hopefully (...) reveal a little more clarity on the subject.

When's the story out? *throws money at the screen*

[Perrin]

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

What happened with the pack sent after Alpharius? Haven't heard about that before, think I may have missed something

[A D-B]

 

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

 

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

 

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

 

If they are sent as a throwaway plan - "if it works, it works" - then the variables are less of an issue. If they can get a message out, great, if not then the Imperium isn't really any worse off than not knowing in the first place. All the better if they are on scene and can kill the treachery at roo - though I've by no means stating this includes whatever the -icide is for killing Primarchs.

 

In my view, and I believed this is echoed by some others here, it is more of a statement of intent than any practical response to needing and early-warning system. Obviously, the message the Legions should take is that "we are watching..." but realistically this isn't going to have much of an effect on post-human armoured 8 foot tall killers.

 

Something else to consider, which maybe casts a more balanced light on the concept itself, is that maybe Russ didn't think this was an A+ wonderful idea, either. He might not have been beating his chest about it, thinking it all added to his swagger. But Malcador the Sigillite asked him, and when the Regent of Terra - the man running the Imperium while the Emperor's missing in the basement - asks one of the most loyal and true-hearted primarchs to do something, he'll probably do it. He might roll his eyes or personally disagree, but the stance of unity (and his Legion's famed obedience) aren't things to casually toss out of the window when the second-most powerful psyker that ever lived comes calling for a mere 18 packs out of countless tens of thousands.

 

The Custodians and Sisters of Silence (both of which would be perfect for that role in any other conditions) were simply not available. They were, shall we say, in a webbish and wayish sort of place. Or gearing up to go there. Or gearing up to go to Prospero.

 

The Space Wolves are in a tricky spot, now. Everything you write has to avoid Space Wolf exceptionalism (which was plainly evident in the series for a while - and the fandom - intentional or otherwise), while also avoiding the hyperbole of the backlash against said exceptionalism. The easiest way to go about that is just to focus on telling good, lore-appropriate stories rather than worrying too much, but I do think the way factions are portrayed is part of our professional concern.

[Kol Saresk]

Its in the audio Wolf Hunt I believe. Correct title is Hunter's Moon.

 

 

Anyway, they show up at the Expedition Fleet Alpharius is supposed to be in, and he invites them aboard his ship. While meeting with them, the Alpha Legion decide to kill the Wolves. One of them manages to kill "Alpharius"(notice quotations) an steals a Thunderhawk. He crashes on an ocean world where some natives rescue him from drowning. They return to their island-home where they are greeted by the Alpha Legion. The Wolf has enough time to go "But you're dead!" Before Alpharius shoots him.

 

 

EDIT: Sounds like shaky waters A D-B. Good luck.

[A D-B]

 

EDIT: Sounds like shaky waters A D-B. Good luck.

 

 

"Thor. Hlödyn's son.

Protector of Mankind.

Ride to meet your fate.

Ragnarok awaits."

[b1soul]

 

 

 

The Russ/Angron thing was Russ not trying to kill Angron.

Coupled with Angron showing a degree of restraint himself...more restraint than Russ at times. It wasn't Angron who charged Russ

Not sure we've read the same book?

I simply put what my thoughts were after reading the book a while ago, it's my opinion only.

You've already put what you think, in fact I think we're all more than aware of what you think reading the thread. You also seem to be the only one really with such a big chip on your shoulder about it. So I'm quite happy to just disagree and leave the childish my primarchs better than yours to the kids.

If you want to continue in your line of discussion I'll happily re-read the book at some point when I have time/can actually be bothered and then we can have a nice discussion using actual quotes from the books rather than it says xyz.

I like a good argument when it's based on fact. A good % of my working day is spent 'discussing' things with people who think they are in the right. While at work I'm not allowed to mock them while I do it (dam that 100% call recording). My wife's reading this over my shoulder so I've got to behave now as well. :(

Edit: lol ... I've just got a slap around the back of the head from the wife for posting the last bit.

I gave you a short civil reply. You're the one who seems to be overreacting because I'm not agreeing with you. Russ lost his cool and charged Angron. Angron's behavior wasn't completely devoid of restraint. Hence he did show some restraint. I don't know what book you're reading. Good day to your wife

[Russ Brother 92]

Okie doke folks - let's chill and cool down either way - everyone's opinion is exactly that and should be respected as such.

 

now on the nicer side of things - firstly @A D-B - you quoted Amon Amarth, Glory to the Old Gods! :) it has made my day aha

 

As for the idea of a small (bare in mind these aren't guardsmen, these are specially trained killers and likely the pick of the bunch where a legion famed for such skill & cunning is concerned) elite formation 'visiting' a potentially fallible or treacherous primarch is certainly viable.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

 

 

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

 

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

 

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

 

If they are sent as a throwaway plan - "if it works, it works" - then the variables are less of an issue. If they can get a message out, great, if not then the Imperium isn't really any worse off than not knowing in the first place. All the better if they are on scene and can kill the treachery at roo - though I've by no means stating this includes whatever the -icide is for killing Primarchs.

 

In my view, and I believed this is echoed by some others here, it is more of a statement of intent than any practical response to needing and early-warning system. Obviously, the message the Legions should take is that "we are watching..." but realistically this isn't going to have much of an effect on post-human armoured 8 foot tall killers.

 

Something else to consider, which maybe casts a more balanced light on the concept itself, is that maybe Russ didn't think this was an A+ wonderful idea, either. He might not have been beating his chest about it, thinking it all added to his swagger. But Malcador the Sigillite asked him, and when the Regent of Terra - the man running the Imperium while the Emperor's missing in the basement - asks one of the most loyal and true-hearted primarchs to do something, he'll probably do it. He might roll his eyes or personally disagree, but the stance of unity (and his Legion's famed obedience) aren't things to casually toss out of the window when the second-most powerful psyker that ever lived comes calling for a mere 18 packs out of countless tens of thousands.

 

The Custodians and Sisters of Silence (both of which would be perfect for that role in any other conditions) were simply not available. They were, shall we say, in a webbish and wayish sort of place. Or gearing up to go there. Or gearing up to go to Prospero.

 

The Space Wolves are in a tricky spot, now. Everything you write has to avoid Space Wolf exceptionalism (which was plainly evident in the series for a while - and the fandom - intentional or otherwise), while also avoiding the hyperbole of the backlash against said exceptionalism. The easiest way to go about that is just to focus on telling good, lore-appropriate stories rather than worrying too much, but I do think the way factions are portrayed is part of our professional concern.

 

First off, my typos sadden me immensely. That's what I get for slacking off at work.

 

It seems that, from what I see online, it is that exact extreme(?) loyalty that seems to fall by the wayside when the Wolves are discussed - I still love that Sevetar quote you posted up a while ago that describes the Wolves as dogs, in effect. You're right though, in a Legion famed for its extreme loyalties even the loss of a couple hundred Marines isn't going to seriously impact efficiency. To be honest, I can see Russ doubting the effectiveness without doubting its credibility as a military tactic.

 

Having not read any of the more recent books - I believe Know No Fear was my last - has that thing about the Wolves being so exceptional carried on or is still based on "old" arguments?

[Kol Saresk]

It depends on your point of view. Yes, the Executioner schtick sees print. But in reality, it has been severely diluted in an effort kill the belief that it somehow makes them über-special.

 

But there are fans who choose to continue seeing the über-specialness and use the smallest thing for it to blow it up into a great big badge. And there are fans who use the smallest thing against it to do the opposite. That's why A D-B was talking about having to be careful about writing anything concerning the Wolves. There are already radical vocal elements that see him as hating the Wolves just because he wrote Betrayer.

[A D-B]

It depends on your point of view. Yes, the Executioner schtick sees print. But in reality, it has been severely diluted in an effort kill the belief that it somehow makes them über-special.

 

But there are fans who choose to continue seeing the über-specialness and use the smallest thing for it to blow it up into a great big badge. And there are fans who use the smallest thing against it to do the opposite. That's why A D-B was talking about having to be careful about writing anything concerning the Wolves. There are already radical vocal elements that see him as hating the Wolves just because he wrote Betrayer.

 

Teehee. In fairness, that online contingent is so small (and made up of the same handful of posters) that I can name them individually. Night Lords fans are probably my most vocal feedbackers, but Space Wolf and Dark Angel fans come a close second, especially in terms of fan mail. And especially for Betrayer, actually. One thing you notice overall about fans that are older/see more nuance/type better (sad but true) is that they don't care about winning or losing - they care about an interesting, balanced portrayal that conforms to the mood of existing lore, makes them think about new angles while still being faithful to the stuff that came before... or does both. Those readers rarely knee-jerk, and often come well-equipped to discussions. That's not to say younger readers are all idiots, of course. That'd be nonsense, even with the broadest strokes of the brush. 

 

Ups and downs. Ins and outs. It is what it is. I'd take my reputation among the fanbase over anyone else's - even Dan's. I'm not blind to the fact I've been extremely lucky with my feedback, especially given the projects I've chosen to do. I'm probably writing a lot more about the Space Wolves in the next few years, as it happens. Right after Prospero Burns, that idea would've filled me with dread, but now with things more balanced, I can't wait.

[SW1]

ADB has hit the nail on the head.

 

I think fluff is something that is more important the longer the person has been immersed in the whole 40k universe rather than their age.  Lol ... But being older allows one to have been immersed for longer so quite often goes hand in hand.

 

If you are just starting you gobble up as much of the detail as you can and probably the HH novels are seen as cannon not to be argued with in their eyes.  However for those who have been about longer in the hobby, remember/hold dear the old stuff and every time a new books released hope things don't get retconned again.

 

I enjoy a good story and in regard to the SW's they have been mauled to almost extinction multiple times in the histories with only a great company to rebuild from (Can't remember which book that was in).  So in my eyes I want to see them get a slapping and being wiped out every so often.  All SM's eventually die so make it a good death worthy of a great Saga!!!

[Greyall]

Watchdog squads are a lowsy idea - one that makes sense when all alarms are on after major treason.

 

To be honest, I think it's cool to take that 'Executioner' business and use it mildly in the narrative: for example, Russ' current 'mad as hell' state wouldn't have  been possible if he didn't get all puffy-chested about being the loyalest loyalist. The Wolves seem to be living their own legend a bit, it has always seemed too over-the-top, it's fine for things to get down to earth and for the Legion to take an icy bath in reality.

[daveNYC]

Dark Angel fans? Did you write a DA story or book at some point, or are they begging you to come in and rescue the DA plot line from wherever the hell it's managed to wander off to?

 

Problem with the watchdog squads is that:

1) The idea already failed horribly with Lorgar, and that was using Custodes. Now they're trying to recreate a failed plan using weaker assets.

2) Any Primarch worthy of the name isn't even going to be slowed down by these guys. It's like there's an assumption that Primarch X is going to decide to turn traitor and then just announce it over the ships intercom right after breakfast. Any legion they send these guys to is going to be keeping an eye on them, and any legion that's going to turn traitor is going to have "Stab the Space Wolf watchdogs in the face." as a major to-do item on their pre-betray the Emperor checklist.

 

I have slightly less of an issue with the idea that you could manage to send teams of Marines to try and watch for treachery, give everyone vortex grenades tied into their pulse and they'll be able to take a primarch down, ship them off with melta bombs and they'll be able to nuke a reactor, something. But all that involves infiltrating the target legion, something the Wolves aren't exactly known for.

 

Just showing up and looking suspiciously at everyone and everything just isn't going to work.

[Stonerhino]

And how do you know that is not happening as well.  The Wolves are just the diversion to get the real assests in place.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I enjoy a good story and in regard to the SW's they have been mauled to almost extinction multiple times in the histories with only a great company to rebuild from (Can't remember which book that was in).  So in my eyes I want to see them get a slapping and being wiped out every so often.  All SM's eventually die so make it a good death worthy of a great Saga!!!

It's in Grey Hunter, the old William King book, if memory serves it's happened three times in 10,000 years. Tbh I'd be surprised if similar losses hadn't happened to all the First Founding, and a fair chunk of the Second Founding Chapters over the lifetime of the Imperium.

[daveNYC]

Because sending the Wolves means you're letting the various legions know that you don't really trust them.  This will likely cause said legions to increase their security.  This would be bad for any other assets that you have that are trying to sneak around.

 

A good first step for trying to keep an eye on the legions for signs of betrayal would be to not let them know that you're keeping an eye on them for signs of betrayal.

[SW1]

They know everyone is being watched as it's a challenging time. Wouldn't they be more suspicious if nothing overt was being done to keep an eye on them?

 

So security would be in the places it needs to be rather than where ever the wolves are likely to stick their noses?

 

Bit like the fake military hardware used to cover up the location of the Normandy landings where we were going to make landfall back into Europe.

[Kol Saresk]

Except from what we can tell, the Watch-Packs were sent out before Istvaan III was common knowledge, according to Hunter's Moon. That was the audio I was referring to earlier.

[WGXH]

Dark Angel fans? Did you write a DA story or book at some point, or are they begging you to come in and rescue the DA plot line from wherever the hell it's managed to wander off to?

 

 

 

He wrote two short stories- Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows- which are collectively considered to be the best showings of the First Legion in the series thus far. So yeah, we kind of collectively lost our **** and want to claim him a little. I think he's possibly the only author to write about the Dark Angels and made the loyalist characters both likable and not overshadoweed by the Fallen- at least, the only one to do so writing about new characters and not tabletop special characters.

 

On topic, I kind of like the idea of the Space Wolves being so utterly loyal they don't mind being the canary in the mineshaft.

[daveNYC]

I didn't even think of those two.  Both are very good stories, bonus points for having Curze beat The Lion and The Lion beat Curze all within a couple of pages.

 

I suspect the Alpha Legion spent most of their time laughing behind the backs of the watchdog squad that was spending its time closely shadowing the movements of Random Legion Guy #$23 Alpharius.

[Scribe]

 

 

An early warning detection is feasible, but too many variables. How would it work? Would Russ rely on confirmation of arrival and then continuation of reports there after? What if there's an event like Chondax where the entire fleet is blocked from sending and receiving all communications after the Wolves arrive? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed and attack them?

 

What if, like in Fear to Tread, the Wolves become casualties of war? Is Russ just going to assume they were killed to cover up some plot agains the Emperor?

What about the Wolves in Unremembered Empire, who as far as we know have been unable to send even word of their arrival. They could be killed and Russ would either have to take Guilliman's word for it, or be Alpharius-levels of paranoid concerning the situation.

 

No, as an "early warning system", there are too many things that can go wrong. And there are too many things that have. The watch-pack sent to Ultramar is cut off from the rest of the Imperium. The watch-pack sent to Signus Prime was able to report its last know whereabouts before being cut off, where then they became victims of the Blood Angels suffering from the Red Thirst, IIRC. Heck, the one sent after Alpharius was killed to a man and yet no one batted an eye in sending the XX to Istvaan V.

 

If they are sent as a throwaway plan - "if it works, it works" - then the variables are less of an issue. If they can get a message out, great, if not then the Imperium isn't really any worse off than not knowing in the first place. All the better if they are on scene and can kill the treachery at roo - though I've by no means stating this includes whatever the -icide is for killing Primarchs.

 

In my view, and I believed this is echoed by some others here, it is more of a statement of intent than any practical response to needing and early-warning system. Obviously, the message the Legions should take is that "we are watching..." but realistically this isn't going to have much of an effect on post-human armoured 8 foot tall killers.

 

Something else to consider, which maybe casts a more balanced light on the concept itself, is that maybe Russ didn't think this was an A+ wonderful idea, either. He might not have been beating his chest about it, thinking it all added to his swagger. But Malcador the Sigillite asked him, and when the Regent of Terra - the man running the Imperium while the Emperor's missing in the basement - asks one of the most loyal and true-hearted primarchs to do something, he'll probably do it. He might roll his eyes or personally disagree, but the stance of unity (and his Legion's famed obedience) aren't things to casually toss out of the window when the second-most powerful psyker that ever lived comes calling for a mere 18 packs out of countless tens of thousands.

 

The Custodians and Sisters of Silence (both of which would be perfect for that role in any other conditions) were simply not available. They were, shall we say, in a webbish and wayish sort of place. Or gearing up to go there. Or gearing up to go to Prospero.

 

The Space Wolves are in a tricky spot, now. Everything you write has to avoid Space Wolf exceptionalism (which was plainly evident in the series for a while - and the fandom - intentional or otherwise), while also avoiding the hyperbole of the backlash against said exceptionalism. The easiest way to go about that is just to focus on telling good, lore-appropriate stories rather than worrying too much, but I do think the way factions are portrayed is part of our professional concern.

 

:cuss yes ADB. WRITE HARD! WRITE TRUE!

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't even think of those two. Both are very good stories, bonus points for having Curze beat The Lion and The Lion beat Curze all within a couple of pages.

 

I suspect the Alpha Legion spent most of their time laughing behind the backs of the watchdog squad that was spending its time closely shadowing the movements of Random Legion Guy #$23 Alpharius.

That squad died rather quickly.

[daveNYC]

 

I didn't even think of those two. Both are very good stories, bonus points for having Curze beat The Lion and The Lion beat Curze all within a couple of pages.

 

I suspect the Alpha Legion spent most of their time laughing behind the backs of the watchdog squad that was spending its time closely shadowing the movements of Random Legion Guy #$23 Alpharius.

That squad died rather quickly.

 

As far as the Wolves know, that squad managed to escape prior to Istvaan V (where they managed to sabotage the geller field of the Alpha, so you won't have to worry about that for a while, really) and after providing their Legion with critical and absolutely accurate intelligence, was reincorporated back into their Great Company where they will continue to be a very valuable asset for the remainder of the war.