Space Wolf "Watchdog" Squads: Not a silly idea if done right

[Karthak]

 

But there are fans who choose to continue seeing the über-specialness and use the smallest thing for it to blow it up into a great big badge. And there are fans who use the smallest thing against it to do the opposite. That's why A D-B was talking about having to be careful about writing anything concerning the Wolves. There are already radical vocal elements that see him as hating the Wolves just because he wrote Betrayer.

Hating the wolves because he wrote the book where Russ pulled off...what did Lorgar call it? Ah yes: 

"the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes."

- Betrayer

 

How did some people interpret Lorgar explaining to Angron exactly how heavily Russ pwned him as "ADB hates Space Wolves"?. o.0

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

I didn't even think of those two. Both are very good stories, bonus points for having Curze beat The Lion and The Lion beat Curze all within a couple of pages.

 

I suspect the Alpha Legion spent most of their time laughing behind the backs of the watchdog squad that was spending its time closely shadowing the movements of Random Legion Guy #$23 Alpharius.

That squad died rather quickly.

As far as the Wolves know, that squad managed to escape prior to Istvaan V (where they managed to sabotage the geller field of the Alpha, so you won't have to worry about that for a while, really) and after providing their Legion with critical and absolutely accurate intelligence, was reincorporated back into their Great Company where they will continue to be a very valuable asset for the remainder of the war.

You haven't read Scars, have you? The Wolves can smell their own. And Alphas don't smell like Fenrisians.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

But there are fans who choose to continue seeing the über-specialness and use the smallest thing for it to blow it up into a great big badge. And there are fans who use the smallest thing against it to do the opposite. That's why A D-B was talking about having to be careful about writing anything concerning the Wolves. There are already radical vocal elements that see him as hating the Wolves just because he wrote Betrayer.

Hating the wolves because he wrote the book where Russ pulled off...what did Lorgar call it? Ah yes:

"the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes."

- Betrayer

 

How did some people interpret Lorgar explaining to Angron exactly how heavily Russ pwned him as "ADB hates Space Wolves"?. o.0

Hey, I never said a word about it making sense.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

I didn't even think of those two. Both are very good stories, bonus points for having Curze beat The Lion and The Lion beat Curze all within a couple of pages.

 

I suspect the Alpha Legion spent most of their time laughing behind the backs of the watchdog squad that was spending its time closely shadowing the movements of Random Legion Guy #$23 Alpharius.

That squad died rather quickly.

As far as the Wolves know, that squad managed to escape prior to Istvaan V (where they managed to sabotage the geller field of the Alpha, so you won't have to worry about that for a while, really) and after providing their Legion with critical and absolutely accurate intelligence, was reincorporated back into their Great Company where they will continue to be a very valuable asset for the remainder of the war.

You haven't read Scars, have you? The Wolves can smell their own. And Alphas don't smell like Fenrisians.

 

Thats not real is it? Saying the Alpha's cannot infiltrate the Wolves?

[Conn Eremon]

Quite frankly, they shouldn't have been able to infiltrate the Raven Guard. 

[Scribe]

Why? They should be able to infiltrate, and be caught infiltrating, by everyone...while being counter infiltrated!

 

To put it plainly: All legions should be able to do X, just differently than others!

[Conn Eremon]

Poor Iron Hands . . . 

[Scribe]

Sorry, over my head.

 

EDIT: Sure you're not a closet Slaaneshi? ;)

[daveNYC]

Quite frankly, they shouldn't have been able to infiltrate the Raven Guard. 

 

Admittedly the infiltration should have been a tad more difficult than just stealing the plot from Face/Off, but assuming that the Legions have zero biometric based security measures and their computer passwords are all 'password', it's not that crazy an idea.  Post Istvaan, I imagine that any remnants of the three loyal legions are probably just so happy to see another survivor from their legion that they're not likely to ask many hard questions.

 

I haven't read Scars yet, the last HH book I read was Vulkan Lives, so I'm still a bit gun shy about things.  I do understand that it's good though.  Hopefully they don't go too over the top on the Wolves' acute senses.  I never really liked the Ragnar books where they were so awesome that they could straight up smell Chaos.

[SW1]

 

Quite frankly, they shouldn't have been able to infiltrate the Raven Guard. 

 

Admittedly the infiltration should have been a tad more difficult than just stealing the plot from Face/Off, but assuming that the Legions have zero biometric based security measures and their computer passwords are all 'password', it's not that crazy an idea.  Post Istvaan, I imagine that any remnants of the three loyal legions are probably just so happy to see another survivor from their legion that they're not likely to ask many hard questions.

 

I haven't read Scars yet, the last HH book I read was Vulkan Lives, so I'm still a bit gun shy about things.  I do understand that it's good though.  Hopefully they don't go too over the top on the Wolves' acute senses.  I never really liked the Ragnar books where they were so awesome that they could straight up smell Chaos.

 

Why not, some dogs can smell cancer/tumours.

 

Take this and then apply GWS logic ... Isn't Chaos just a cancer of the soul and aren't dogs just well behaved wolves? ... And you get uber acute anti-chaos senses!

[daveNYC]

Yeah, dogs have impressive senses, but being able to just straignt up smell Chaos removes one of it's more dangerous aspects, the fact that it can be subtle.  Chaos isn't just a rampaging horde of whatevers coming through a rift, nor is it a straight up Faustian deal where a signature on the dotted line swaps your soul for Earth shattering power.  It's also a subtle corruption of ideals and methods, it's the ultimate slippery slope argument.  It's the smiling guy running the local day care that has a disturbing picture collection, it's the great orator who fills you with pride as he talks about leading your country back to greatness, it's the nurse who is always there when the patients in her care take a sudden turn for the worst.

 

It's the evil that we don't see because we wouldn't make it through the day if we actually realized just how horrible the world is.  And in 40k, Chaos is that evil dialed up to 11 and then given a couple layers of management to try and spread the love.  Giving any faction the ability to simply take a wiff and then point to bad guy removes that ability to hide in plain sight, and that is not a good thing.

[Plague Angel]

The Wolves' canid nature has always had distinct ties to Chaos though, manifesting as a resistant counter against warp influence.

[Wade Garrett]

I am still unsure why "turning into an insane flesh eating wolf monster" is considered to be a reliable safeguard against Chaos Corruption.

[Plague Angel]

Can't mutate what's already mutated, I guess?

[Perrin]

I am still unsure why "turning into an insane flesh eating wolf monster" is considered to be a reliable safeguard against Chaos Corruption.

They may be mutant wolf monsters, but at least they're OUR mutant wolf monsters

Without going into how realistic it is for Alpha Legion to successfully infiltrate any Legion, it would make sense that the Space Wolves would be one of the hardest to infiltrate.

I'm not saying this makes them better than any other Legion in any way, but they do traditionally have a better sense of hearing and smell than other Space Marines, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suggest that they would be able to identify an infiltrator by his scent. Even if it's so small as to notice that a long lost "brother" smells a little different from usual, this would at least cause the others to keep an extra eye on him.

[Relict]

 

How, then, would the Space Wolves expect to get their weekly reports of "Guilliman is building a potentially heretical Imperium, but so far no confirmed signs of heresy" from Ultramar to Terra? Remember that all of Ultramar is still cut off due to the Ruinstorm.

Not to mention that the messages from the Custodes while with the Word Bearers were being manipulated by sorcery.

 

I really have no idea how they are supposed to report back who is good to go and who has cuddled up with Horus.  This makes me wonder if there were questionable legions, pure traitors, and pure loyalists that Malcador knew and then only sent the packs to the questionable.  Granted there is the whole, "if one son tuned (Magnus) others might as well" which hints that they only knew of Magnus disobeying and and thus everyone with exception to the Wolves were of questionable status.

 

However, with the millions of ways to die in the universe, the sudden disappearance of a pack when seconded to a quetionable legion would not raise any eyebrows.  For example, the BA could have just as easily been traitor and told Malcador that the Wolves died in a horrible battle on Signus Prime, wink wink.  Something yet unknown must have been in place beyond just the sudden death of a pack to alert Terra.  Maybe the answer lies in the fact that the Wolves openly had a rune priest with them post Nikkea when they arrived to rendevouz with the BA?

 

Another question would be this: where would the line be? How many lines does a loyalist Primarch have to cross before he is considered a traitor? 

 

Guilliman was busy shoring up Ultramar as Imperium Secundus with Sanguinius as its new Emperor and with the Lion's full support. He has also reinstated the Librarius. 

 

Putting the responsibility of judging the loyalty of one of the Emperor's sons in the hands of ten Space Marines from a notoriously biased and unstable Legion is... questionable. 

[SW1]

Not sure where you get the unstable from?

 

The space Viking bravado is to put others at ease thinking them as just dum savages. It's a front so others underestimate them.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

How, then, would the Space Wolves expect to get their weekly reports of "Guilliman is building a potentially heretical Imperium, but so far no confirmed signs of heresy" from Ultramar to Terra? Remember that all of Ultramar is still cut off due to the Ruinstorm.

Not to mention that the messages from the Custodes while with the Word Bearers were being manipulated by sorcery.

 

I really have no idea how they are supposed to report back who is good to go and who has cuddled up with Horus.  This makes me wonder if there were questionable legions, pure traitors, and pure loyalists that Malcador knew and then only sent the packs to the questionable.  Granted there is the whole, "if one son tuned (Magnus) others might as well" which hints that they only knew of Magnus disobeying and and thus everyone with exception to the Wolves were of questionable status.

 

However, with the millions of ways to die in the universe, the sudden disappearance of a pack when seconded to a quetionable legion would not raise any eyebrows.  For example, the BA could have just as easily been traitor and told Malcador that the Wolves died in a horrible battle on Signus Prime, wink wink.  Something yet unknown must have been in place beyond just the sudden death of a pack to alert Terra.  Maybe the answer lies in the fact that the Wolves openly had a rune priest with them post Nikkea when they arrived to rendevouz with the BA?

 

Another question would be this: where would the line be? How many lines does a loyalist Primarch have to cross before he is considered a traitor? 

 

Guilliman was busy shoring up Ultramar as Imperium Secundus with Sanguinius as its new Emperor and with the Lion's full support. He has also reinstated the Librarius. 

 

Putting the responsibility of judging the loyalty of one of the Emperor's sons in the hands of ten Space Marines from a notoriously biased and unstable Legion is... questionable. 

I would say with the Sigilite's blessing, it kinda makes your other accusations of them seem just personal bias.  The way that the BA for example look at the orders basically puts the one BA commander in his place pretty quickly.  And when Guilliman takes a look at them, he basically locks step and follows the orders as well.

[Grimtooth]

So I had another thought regarding the "observer" members of the Rout seconded to Legions to check for treachery, and this is specifically in regard to the the Fear to Tread involvement.

 

I don't remember the exact wording, but the Wolves at one point are talking about how if one son could disobey or turn, or whatever it is they said about Magnus, another could turn as well.  Now this is before the BA discover that it was Horus that led them to Signus Prime and the Word Bearers basically took off.  At that point it seems that the Wolves and by the nature of their orders do not know of any other treachery on part of Horus or the other Legions that have gone traitor.  So when they say that if one son could disobey, others could as well, can they and by extension Terra ONLY be talking about disobeying the Edict of Nikkea?

 

So are the "observer" packs only looking for those that are following along in the footsteps of Magnus and delving too deep?  I know that the rune priest actually approaches the BA librarians and encourages them to break the edict to help Sang, but were the Wolves sent out to the different Legions NOT to see if they had turned traitor ala Horus, but if they were involved in maleficarum like Magnus?

[b1soul]

Because sending the Wolves means you're letting the various legions know that you don't really trust them.  This will likely cause said legions to increase their security.  This would be bad for any other assets that you have that are trying to sneak around.

 

A good first step for trying to keep an eye on the legions for signs of betrayal would be to not let them know that you're keeping an eye on them for signs of betrayal.

 

Your arguments are well-thought-out, but I'd like to offer some counterarguments 

 

Wolves are more expendable than Custodes. A handful Custodes would get wrecked by a primarch..so would a handful of Wolves.  

 

Custodian watchers and Space Wolf watchers would both function as early warning systems, not as effective executioners. Neither would have a good chance of killing a renegade primarch who'd be surrounded by an elite bodyguard most of the time.  

 

As such, might as well throw the Wolves to the wolves and save the Custodes for doing what they're good at...defending the Imperial Palace.

 

As for watching the legions without alerting them to the fact they're being watched, that's much easier said than done. I suppose you could do it AL-style. Insert infiltrators and spies...but that takes a lot of preparation and training and it could also fail. Also, if discovered, infiltrators would likely be much more offensive to a Primarch. Some Primarchs are on the fence. You really don't want to give them reason to go over to the other side...or to give Horus ammunition for convincing a waffling brother to join his side "Look how the Imperium treat you. Years of loyal service and they don't even trust you blah blah blah"    

 

Malcador isn't sending guys to "sneak around". It's a calculated maneuvre. Malcador sends Wolves out in the open. Loyal legions will understand Malcador's concerns. They'll cooperate. They'll make sure to allay the concerns of Terra

 

Disloyal legions are faced with two choices:

1. pretend cooperation...this means letting the Wolves live and risking discovery despite efforts to conceal betrayal, wait for an opportune time to get rid of the Wolves. All the while the Wolves will be watching them.  

2. get rid of the Wolves immediately, imprison them 

 

If you cut off the Wolve's communication, you risk arousing suspicion 

If you let them hang around, you risk the Wolve's discovering your true colours and sending word to Terra. The Wolves are a throwaway early warning system. A squad or two attached to each legion. The question isn't why...but why not? 

[Greyall]

You don't really choose your security agents by their sense of justice. They're operatives, all they have to do is share your core beliefs and be quick and effective at implementing/enforcing/preserving them. Note: I'm being purposely blunt, whether I agree with this isn't important.

 

The Wolves, at least pre-Prospero, will not think twice before obeying an Imperial order, and where other Chapters, even the Ultramarines, might muse on the order's nature and the best way to fulfill it, the Wolves will choose the rational option that's closest to an A to B straight line and stop at absolutely nothing to reach the goal. Which, I'd say, explains why the 40K Wolves aren't that fond of just saying 'Yes, Sir/Jarl'.

[daveNYC]

The nature of your results depends on the nature of your tools.  The Wolves are remarkably blunt instruments, they tend to take their orders pretty literally with little room for interpretation.  Depending on what you want done, that's either a good or bad thing.

 

The plus side, in this particular situation, is that they'd be keeping their eyes out for any signs of disloyal behavior, and they probably wouldn't be swallowing any BS from their target legion about why suspicious activity X was going on.  The down side, is that they might be so edgy that they'd go all 40k Inquisitor (Puritan, of course) at the slightest sign of anything.  The BA get a little nutty on Signus Prime?  Various Legions have reinstated Librarians in light of Horus' new allies?  Ultramarines seem a little slow to come to the aid of Terra?  Traitors all!

Worst case scenario, you could even get entrapment... Legion X comes up against some daemons or whatnot and the watchdogs actually suggest busting out the psykers (because they're just so useful and the Emperor's edict isn't meant as a suicide pact) and the second they do so bust them for being traitors.

 

Of course using a more flexible legion like the Alphas is that however useful their flexible interpretation of the rules is, it leaves open the possibility that they'll get the bright idea that they could just play along with any actual traitors and try and twist them to their ends.

 

I do like the general theme that is in place that the 30k Wolves behave more like the worst elements of 40k, while the 40k Wolves are attempting to echo the better parts of the 30k setting.  A Thousand Sons covers the downside of the former, while The Emperor's Gift did a great job of showing the downsides of the latter.  There's a great opportunity to cover the development of Russ as his attitudes change to the point where he decides to go on walkabout with his crew.  They've already made a mess of Corax's falling into despair to the point where I'm not sure how they'll be able to drag the story back onto the established fluff, it'd be a shame if they don't take the opportunity to develop Russ from the two-dimensional 'Space Viking who has no doubts' into the guy who ditches his legion to go off on a personal quest for redemption/closure/whatever he was up to.

[Relict]

 

 

 

How, then, would the Space Wolves expect to get their weekly reports of "Guilliman is building a potentially heretical Imperium, but so far no confirmed signs of heresy" from Ultramar to Terra? Remember that all of Ultramar is still cut off due to the Ruinstorm.

Not to mention that the messages from the Custodes while with the Word Bearers were being manipulated by sorcery.

 

I really have no idea how they are supposed to report back who is good to go and who has cuddled up with Horus.  This makes me wonder if there were questionable legions, pure traitors, and pure loyalists that Malcador knew and then only sent the packs to the questionable.  Granted there is the whole, "if one son tuned (Magnus) others might as well" which hints that they only knew of Magnus disobeying and and thus everyone with exception to the Wolves were of questionable status.

 

However, with the millions of ways to die in the universe, the sudden disappearance of a pack when seconded to a quetionable legion would not raise any eyebrows.  For example, the BA could have just as easily been traitor and told Malcador that the Wolves died in a horrible battle on Signus Prime, wink wink.  Something yet unknown must have been in place beyond just the sudden death of a pack to alert Terra.  Maybe the answer lies in the fact that the Wolves openly had a rune priest with them post Nikkea when they arrived to rendevouz with the BA?

 

Another question would be this: where would the line be? How many lines does a loyalist Primarch have to cross before he is considered a traitor? 

 

Guilliman was busy shoring up Ultramar as Imperium Secundus with Sanguinius as its new Emperor and with the Lion's full support. He has also reinstated the Librarius. 

 

Putting the responsibility of judging the loyalty of one of the Emperor's sons in the hands of ten Space Marines from a notoriously biased and unstable Legion is... questionable. 

I would say with the Sigilite's blessing, it kinda makes your other accusations of them seem just personal bias.  The way that the BA for example look at the orders basically puts the one BA commander in his place pretty quickly.  And when Guilliman takes a look at them, he basically locks step and follows the orders as well.

 

I don't dislike the SWs or their fans. I dislike the self-proclaimed "Emperor's executioners" title however. 

 

Pound for pound, the SWs are probably the equal of any Legion and would be able to fight any Legion to a bloody draw (on even grounds) at the very least. However, the Emperor never named them his "executioners." Russ's attempt to "rein in" Angron backfired spectacularly. More importantly, the Emperor did not tell him to go bring Angron and his WEs back in chains. The only time the SWs were used as anything close to "executioners" was during the Burning of Prospero. Even then, the original order was to nab, not stab, Magnus. Being duped into driving a loyal Legion into the arms of Chaos by the Arch-Traitor himself is the epitome of everything wrong with "following orders without thought." 

[Beta galactosidase]

I am still unsure why "turning into an insane flesh eating wolf monster" is considered to be a reliable safeguard against Chaos Corruption.

There are two forms of naturalism, or of being less than human. You can be a regressed member of a society red in tooth in claw, murdering your friends to get ahead and taking all the pleasures on offer, and you'd be Abaddon, in which case your human faculties are abused. You can be a wolf that eats when it's hungry and has no avarice, and you'd be a wulfen, in which case you have no human faculties.

 

 

Dark Angel fans? Did you write a DA story or book at some point, or are they begging you to come in and rescue the DA plot line from wherever the hell it's managed to wander off to?

 

Problem with the watchdog squads is that:

1) The idea already failed horribly with Lorgar, and that was using Custodes. Now they're trying to recreate a failed plan using weaker assets.

You can completely contrast the two. The Custodes' job was to sort of prod him into being better at his job if they thought he was not trying hard enough. They have to decide both what it means to not be a team player, and what to do about it - it's not going to be killing Lorgar, because nobody could have guessed he was actually evil. The Wolves' job is to hold a gun to a primarch's head and pull the trigger if he turns into an actual enemy.

2) Any Primarch worthy of the name isn't even going to be slowed down by these guys.

Well they have guns, usually.

[Kol Saresk]

 

I am still unsure why "turning into an insane flesh eating wolf monster" is considered to be a reliable safeguard against Chaos Corruption.

Except its not. Case in point, the two Wolves who turned and murdered their brethren before joining up with Huron and his Corsairs. Its almost like Chaos Corruption is a matter of willpower and the only that protects you from it is the refusal to give in, not canine DNA. But hey, that's just fan speculation. :)