Leman Russ are obsolete in my eyes

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, okay. I know this is a very hard accusation. But I had a look at the new rulebook with my GW buddy, who got the shipment today. While I will not give any details, I have concluded that the only optimally performing LR are the Pask Punisher/Vanquisher and the 5 plasma executioner in command squad to benefit of Preferred Enemy to reroll Gets Hot! (yes, it's still a thing, and no, most rumours were false, and yes Prescience is still the Primaris in divination).

Extermiantor, Eradicator, Punisher and Vanquisher underperform given their point cost seeing how my vets and platoon can bring almost equal quality while being scoring and benefit from orders. LRBT and Demolisher still suffer from Ordnance snap shots and are rather expensive. Pask and Plasmacutioner are the only ones that bring anything useful and unique for their points.

Here is my question. What are alternatives. I need lascannons or equivalent. Since vehicles only explode on 7 now, there is no reason to bring s8/9 ap3 stuff, this is also why I am changing my Knight Paladin into an Errant Knight. Wyvern and platoon does anti infantry better and it is not worth it to get that one hull point of a tank. Sabre platforms will not only snap shot at ground targets seeing how intercept does not allow to fire at ground targets at full BS anymore.

I was thinking Inquisitorial detachment with vanilla Land Raider for those lascannon split fire shots and Henchmen for either the melee oriented build with crusaders and deathcults, or ranged version with joki lascannons. Or maybe HWT? They cost a lot for such weapon models, but with prescience they could be a thing. Maybe heavy weapons for cover camping vets? Drive to a point with chimera, unload sentry/grenadier vets in cover and have fun. They can still be mobile with the Shoot + Run order.

Are there any other/additional option you can think of? Grav-Centurions worth the tax? Vendettas I consider sub-par at the moment... but maybe you have some ideas.

As for 7ed, the rules did not change much, most were just rumour so you can continue with your normal logic for the most past

Cheers for any input!

Edit:

Due to some misunderstanding, let me clarify: I am not trying to generalize. All LR have their place in certain lists. I am talking about their performance in my lists and only my lists. While this can be generalized to some degree, but certainly not applicable everywhere and in every one of the hundreds of setups.

[hendrik]

what changed? leman russes just became even harder to one shot, or is there something i'm missing? with AV14 only S8 can harm you, while S8 will instakill any of those special/heavy weapons you just mentioned.

Tools for the job young padawan! tools for the job! ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

what changed? leman russes just became even harder to one shot, or is there something i'm missing? with AV14 only S8 can harm you, while S8 will instakill any of those special/heavy weapons you just mentioned.

Tools for the job young padawan! tools for the job!

That is true, LR became harder to kill, but were talking about optimal performance. LRBT and Demolisher are wasted guns due to Ordnance. Extermiantor is worse than a Prescienced Platoon with 3 AC since they can super score in battleforged, take orders to ignore cover and bring it down and can not be glanced to death. Eradicator vs 2 Wyverns, Wyvern wins any day, even against MEQ and TEQ, just tested it today in 2 1500 games. Vanquisher with BS3 and 1 shot is worse than a 3 melta vetera squad, seeing how Prescience has more important targets. Punisher without pask is pointless compared to multilaser + HB spam.

It is not how hard a LR is to kill, it is also what you get for your points and I am just going to say it: a vanilla LR for 250 is in my eyes better point spend than 1.5 of any of the LR above without Pask. I just do not see the point anymore. There is onyl so much Prescience I can bring.

I was considering to drop the LR earlier but my only hope was that 7ed will fix ordnance, which it hasn't unless 5 different people are all mentally handicapped in the same way^^

[Fibonacci]

I'm not following.  If nothing changed, what changed the Leman Russ?

[madman2980]

Ordnance isn't that bad really, You just don't buy sponsons or pintle weapons for the LRBT. You can move and fire at full BS still afaik.

[march10k]

I think the only bad choices are the plasmacutioner and the exterminator.  The erradicator is a bit pricey for basically a griffon mortar that cuts cover, but it does cut cover and it is survivable.  Plasmacutioner needs psycher support, which adds even more to its already steep price tag.  I'd rather just take plasma cannon armored sentinels.  It spreads the risk and keeps a heavy slot open.  The exterminator does absolutely nothing that infantry can't.  I still swear by demolishers and LRBTs.  The range of the battle cannon lets you put real limits on the maneuver of enemy infantry if you deploy where you have commanding fields of fire.  

 

The demolisher cannon is probably the best antitank weapon we have, it's really hard to miss with it, and it rarely fails to get at least a 14.  Plus, it scares the pants off of, well, everything.   Ask space marine players if the Demolisher is obsolete.  One of my favorite tricks, when I get to outflank D3 units, is to reserve my demolishers. Naturally, I always have a reserves roll tinkerer along for the ride.  The demolisher rarely has an ideal target on turn one anyway, due to its 30" effective range (that's the REAL criticism of it!), so coming in on turn 2, with a 2/3 chance of getting the flank that I want...it does nasty things to the enemy's deployment plan, and it's almost impossible to hide all the juicy targets from me if I'm outflanking them...

 

I do agree that the snap shots with ordnance thing is annoying.  So just take a hull heavy bolter or flamer.  Sponsons only add cost and width to the tank, and then if you're obscured, they probably can't see anyway, not to mention that if you're running heavy mech, those extra inches of width can screw with your deployment plan (although, to be fair, they also let you spread a squadron out more without losing coherency...if that matters, and if you take squadrons of them in the first place).  Personally, I take hull lascannons on my LRBTs anyway, partly because that's how I built them, and partly because an AV14 tank with no weapons left except for a heavy bolter isn't a threat.  I want my russes to keep attracting fire even if they lose their battle cannons, it keeps my chimeras alive longer!

 

As for the comparisons between various tanks and similarly killy infantry alternatives...it does actually come back to survivability, AV14 with three hull points will survive far longer and therefore kill more.  Three meltavets will kill one thing before they die, assuming you can keep them alive long enough to take the shot.  A vanquisher in the back of your deployment zone will get 4+ turns of shooting on average (I still wouldn't take one unless it's pasquisher) and may very well survive the game.  Actually, I'd be more likely to compare a demolisher to the meltavets...

[hendrik]

did ordnance change?

it's just not survivability or battlefield output that counts how good a unit is. the succes of a unit largely depends on situations, and luck. Yes, 3 meltagun veterans in a chimera can do more dammage when they get close enough, but the vanquisher offers range. the eradicator can provide decent cover for advancing troops in narrow cityfights where the AV12 of the wyvern would not suffice.etc etc. in an open ground the leman russ' larger durability will make it win over the wyvern.

you speak of glancing to death, however, say we take optimal fire that means your russ is at least recieving S8 hits. most units that fire such weapons usually include a ton of lesser S weapons and the S8 hits will still insta kill . i'm pretty sure we can all agree that our infantry squads are not as good in recieving fire as a leman russ, unless it's a dedicated tankdestroyer unit due to their usual low rate of fire...

calling the leman russ obsolete just means you have not mastered its true potential yet! give them a shot! i'm sure you'll be pleased!

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm not following. If nothing changed, what changed the Leman Russ?

That's the thing. Nothing. Pask with his Squadron is still perfect but I was never quite convinced that the heavy support LR are that great to begin with seeing how some things have improved in the new codex. They are still viable, of cause, sky is not falling, do not get my wrong. I just feel that there are more.. efficient ways of bringing the same effect. That is all. I am simply looking for alternatives to LR

Ordnance isn't that bad really, You just don't buy sponsons or pintle weapons for the LRBT. You can move and fire at full BS still afaik.

You are right, but with the abudance for invul and cover and exploding on 7, s8 ap3 lost a bit of its value. And an Imperial Knight Paladin simply outperforms 2 LRBT. Demolisher is something I would be willing to talk about, but be it all the same. For 170 points a s10 ap2 large blast is ok but I get a feeling of uneasiness about it, it simply costs a lot and an Errant Knight gives a similar effect. Still, it is a decent tank, no doubt. A bit dangerous for my blitz style though, it can hamper me a bit. Finally, Pask Punisher deals with av14 just as well by glancing it into oblivion. Against heavy infantry, the Plasmacustioner is superior.

I think the only bad choices are the plasmacutioner and the exterminator. The erradicator is a bit pricey for basically a griffon mortar that cuts cover, but it does cut cover and it is survivable. Plasmacutioner needs psycher support, which adds even more to its already steep price tag. I'd rather just take plasma cannon armored sentinels. It spreads the risk and keeps a heavy slot open. The exterminator does absolutely nothing that infantry can't. I still swear by demolishers and LRBTs. The range of the battle cannon lets you put real limits on the maneuver of enemy infantry if you deploy where you have commanding fields of fire.

The demolisher cannon is probably the best antitank weapon we have, it's really hard to miss with it, and it rarely fails to get at least a 14. Plus, it scares the pants off of, well, everything. Ask space marine players if the Demolisher is obsolete. One of my favorite tricks, when I get to outflank D3 units, is to reserve my demolishers. Naturally, I always have a reserves roll tinkerer along for the ride. The demolisher rarely has an ideal target on turn one anyway, due to its 30" effective range (that's the REAL criticism of it!), so coming in on turn 2, with a 2/3 chance of getting the flank that I want...it does nasty things to the enemy's deployment plan, and it's almost impossible to hide all the juicy targets from me if I'm outflanking them...

I do agree that the snap shots with ordnance thing is annoying. So just take a hull heavy bolter or flamer. Sponsons only add cost and width to the tank, and then if you're obscured, they probably can't see anyway, not to mention that if you're running heavy mech, those extra inches of width can screw with your deployment plan (although, to be fair, they also let you spread a squadron out more without losing coherency...if that matters, and if you take squadrons of them in the first place). Personally, I take hull lascannons on my LRBTs anyway, partly because that's how I built them, and partly because an AV14 tank with no weapons left except for a heavy bolter isn't a threat. I want my russes to keep attracting fire even if they lose their battle cannons, it keeps my chimeras alive longer!

Good observation. Though I still stand by the Wyvern and thus making Eradicator sub-optimal. LRBT, I do not like it. Demolisher, I am willing to talk (see above). I disagree on the Plasmacutioner: given how Inquisitor are auto-include for me, I have good amount of Prescience. And since I only play Plasmacutioner in the Pask HQ squadron, it can gain from Preferred Enemy at little to no tax, considering how amazing Pask Punisher is.

I have done quite a few games with different LR variants and the only ones performing exceptionally FOR ME (in my army setup) are paskisher + plasmacutioner.

The thing is, I am not exactly looking for area of effect or mass destruction. I am looking for precise s8+ ap2/ap1 shots to deal with things like Centurions, Crisis suits, Riptides, TWC and the occasional heavy tank and the sort. A single s10 ap2 pie plate is a close as it gets with the LR variant. Plasmacutioner is 3+/2+ infantry slayer. This leaves me with Pask ad little else. It is not the general performance but rather performance in my army.

Would you consider a vanilla LR with henchmen a decent solution? Or maybe Melta hounds? I have little experience with those tanks.

[hendrik]

but you talk of the inquisition and knight titans as an auto include, while for many, it might not even be an option worth considering, fluffwise/moneywise/otherwise. otherwise one could consider 40 necrons warriors as the ultimate tank hunter unit as well...

[march10k]

I agree that the wyvern outperforms the erradicator, I just don't like them, lol.  And I will allow that the plasmacutioner is much-improved by being added to Pask's squadron, but that's a special case.  In general, plasma sentinels are better (although I prefer multilasers and autocannons).  I hadn't thought about the battle cannons no longer being able to blow up tanks...but, honestly, it's gone from a 1/6 chance to a 0/6 chance, that's not earth-shaking.  Even in 6th, most tanks were wrecked by stripping their hull points, rather than blown up outright, unless they were hit with melta.

 

I don't think the "explodes on a 7" thing will materially affect my game play.  I will still use autocannons and multilasers to glance lighter vehicles to death, as I always have, and I will still use pasquisher or demolishers on the heavy tanks. 

 

/edit/ and no knights for me, either...it's not a money thing, I'm painting an avenger strike fighter right now, and I have a shadowsword in the queue, I just don't like the damned things (hence the shadowsword...sure, go ahead and field an army of 5 knights at 1850...I gots sumptin for ya!)

[Frater Cornelius]

but you talk of the inquisition and knight titans as an auto include, while for many, it might not even be an option worth considering, fluffwise/moneywise/otherwise. otherwise one could consider 40 necrons warriors as the ultimate tank hunter unit as well...

Ok, sorry, I might've generalised too much. I am talking solely about myself. I have seen vanquisher armies that perform exceptionally. Let me correct it right here (and edit original post): I am viewing most LR obsolete in my current army and seeking for more efficient alternatives

I agree that the wyvern outperforms the erradicator, I just don't like them, lol. And I will allow that the plasmacutioner is much-improved by being added to Pask's squadron, but that's a special case. In general, plasma sentinels are better (although I prefer multilasers and autocannons). I hadn't thought about the battle cannons no longer being able to blow up tanks...but, honestly, it's gone from a 1/6 chance to a 0/6 chance, that's not earth-shaking. Even in 6th, most tanks were wrecked by stripping their hull points, rather than blown up outright, unless they were hit with melta.

I don't think the "explodes on a 7" thing will materially affect my game play. I will still use autocannons and multilasers to glance lighter vehicles to death, as I always have, and I will still use pasquisher or demolishers on the heavy tanks.

/edit/ and no knights for me, either...it's not a money thing, I'm painting an avenger strike fighter right now, and I have a shadowsword in the queue, I just don't like the damned things (hence the shadowsword...sure, go ahead and field an army of 5 knights at 1850...I gots sumptin for ya!)

Challenge accepted :D

Demolishers, I could live with those. Naked 170 points seems a bit high, but that will require for me to do some more thorough testing on 2 of those in HS. If you stand by those, I can respect that.

I also want to test melta hounds. Still, the question stands: vanilla Land Raider.