Scions v Veterans 2.0

[Frater Cornelius]

Before the big crash, there was a thread that did not come to a conclusion, at least in my eyes. So here we go again, this time with a lil' bit more details to start with.

I am looking for dedicated infantry hunters with possibly the option of shooting light tank into the rear.. but mostly for infantry hunting.

They are similarly costed with 10 veterans with 4+, 3 plasmas and vox cost 125 while 7 Scions with 2 plasmas and vox cost 129. With this configuration the Scions will kill way more 3+, 4+, 5+ and 3+ MC and 4+ MC.

As of right now, the Scions are leading in the task of anti-infantry firepower.

But here comes the big big blocker: Scions can only take the Prime. I love the regular Taurox, it trades 1FA and 2 Capacity for better firepower, aggressive deployment (has side doors and 2 firing points on each side) and a 15-20 point drop. This is very good. When spammed you have a ton of long ranged shooting with the options to just speed forward and deploy your veterans.

The Prime has better firepower but is too much of a price hike. The Prime is simply not worth it compared to the regular Taurox.

If Scions could take the regular Taurox, it would be a total no-brainer, but as it stands...

So here comes the big question: is still worth bringing the increased firepower and flexibility of the Scions when they can not mount a regular Taurox? Let us leave the Chimera out of the question for a second (if I take Scions only the scion command squad will get one).

Here is a lil' mock up:

CCS with 2 plasmas, vox and Chimera 160

2x Veterans with 4+, vox, 3 meltas, krak grenades and Taurox for 340

and here we have a cross road:

either 1-2 Veterans with 4+, vox, 3 plasmas in Taurox for 175-350

or

SCS with vox in Chimera 155

10 Scions with vox, 2 plasmas in Taurox Prime 245

or 2x 5 Scions with vox, 2 plasmas in Taurox Prime 370

In the Veteran config we have 1-2 more special weapons while being cheaper. In the Scion config we have far superior firepower, one more Chimera with 1 order but is around 200 points more expensive.

As a final note: I am not pleased with plasma vets in charge of anti infantry in past games, they underperformed due to the poor lasrifle performance. The ap3 is a bigger step than most seem to realize.

[WarriorFish]

Given the large points difference between your options I think that's the primary factor in which is best. If you have the points take the Scions, otherwise the budget Veteran version isn't too bad.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, I do have the point if I drop the 2 Primaris Psykers. Frankly, they are not as useful to me seeing as I do not care for psychic defense just yet and they can't prescience inside of a transport.. and everything I have is in something.

The other factor, however, is efficiency point for point. 80-100 is steep for a Prime and losing one is a big impact on the list. I suppose it is the question whether to Prime or not to Prime.

[Frater Cornelius]

Here is another thought. Maybe leave it at 3 melta vets (510 points), seeing as they are good against most targets, just slightly less effective at roasting good armour save targets than plasma vets, and delegate the anti infantry role to another part of the army. I can sport 2 Wyverns, which should make short work of them and I will have enough points left for a Hellhound or Armoured Sentinels.. though neither of them have good ap3 guns, just a lot of shots to force armour saves, which is a good a method as ap3 shooting.

[hendrik]

for the price of 1 hellhounds you could get another 2 wyverns in the list.bringing the total up to 4. I belive that to be a far more reliable choice

[Frater Cornelius]

for the price of 1 hellhounds you could get another 2 wyverns in the list.bringing the total up to 4. I belive that to be a far more reliable choice

 

Aye, point taken. Though that MM up front of the HH might be beneficial. Be that as it may. 2-4 Wyvern will do one hell of a job, leaving 3 melta vets to jump up front and do their thing. Or does someone possibly suggest 2 plasma vets and 2 melta vets going up either flank in their Tauroxes spewing AC fire and with the tank rampaging up the middle?

The thing that I sorta dislike about that idea is that I will have 1 support centre: the chimera with CCS and 1-2 Primaris Psykers. And that can easily be taken out. Having to take 2 CCS would result in dropping Pask Punisher, the single most awesome guy since Jesus. Though having 3 Vet troops should perfectly do since you only need 3 super scoring troops at the front to try and deny while tanks can hold the back.

 

Thoughts?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I was looking through C:MT again last night and realized that scions beat everyone hands down for grav-chuting and deep striking due to moves through cover. They automatically pass dangerous terrain tests per that rule meaning that scattering off the Valkyrie drop is harmless as is deep striking into difficult terrain. That's pretty nifty.

[Boomkapow]

I like the melta vets because they cause ID to t4 or less. Plasma only on t3 models. Also, versatility with being able to kill tanks as well (better than Plasma at least). To be honest, I think that there was no answer in the last topic because there is no answer that covers everything. Vets have to pay for a valkyrie for the ability to Deep Strike. But Vets can also take 3 specials instead of 2. It all depends on who you are playing against and what role you want them to fulfill. I know this is kind of a cookie-cutter response but in Warhammer there are no (or very few) absolutes.

[Frater Cornelius]

Aye, it required some play testing on my part. And I did, 2 games today 1500 and 1600 vs BA and CSM respectively. With no Scions but repurposed vets and restructured list. And it was glorious. The problem with Scions isn't that they suck, they don't. The problem is the opportunity cost. By only bringing 3 melta vet squads in tauroxes I had points for things that were capable of total annihilation.