Galron Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I am sure I am not the only one who did this, but is there a way to feasibly come up with lists similar to what I had before at 2500 points? What I tended to do was have a Preator of some sort with Orbital Assault or Terror Assault RoW, get what I wanted here, and then a generic primary force org (standard force org) with all the tanks and heavy support and usually a single 20 man squad in a Spartan, Sicarian, and some other heavy support unit. I am not seeing a way around this currently :/ as I understand it we only get one heavy support choice per detachment and have to bring an HQ and 2 troops per. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Doesn't HH use its own force organisation chart? So why would your force composition haver to change? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3696351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Doesn't HH use its own force organisation chart? So why would your force composition haver to change? This indeed. 30K remains as it was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3696355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galron Posted May 26, 2014 Author Share Posted May 26, 2014 Not exactly. At 2k + you could bring a new primary detachment with full force org. Bring one with Orbital Assault RoW and bring another full force org of another RoW or none at all as long as minimums were met (2HQ and 4 troops). In 7th that is no longer an option. Now as far as I can tell, the new rules do not allow a full second primary detachment only little half assed secondary detachments which eat up points with little real gain. Please correct me if I am wrong? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3696971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 30k never allowed two primary detachments. The larger squad sizes were meant to give you room to add bodies as you increase points. Using Dark Angels as an example, in 7th, you can take a full battle company led by Azrael as your primary detachment, add a secondary detachment of terminator troops with Belial and the same for Ravenwing, and an allied detachment of grey knights, inquisitor detachment, and Imperial Knight Detachment. In 30k you can take a single age of darkness detachment and use a rite of war OR take an onslaught, Castellan, or leviathan detachment, which doesn't allow for rites of war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3696977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galron Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 You played it differently than us then. We played by the charts in the HH books while 6th edition allowed for two primaries above 2k. Primaries being the same Legion. Secondary detachments were for allies as per the normal rules. They actually have gaming up in North GA now? When I was there it was a gaming black hole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 What Marshal used was the charts in the HH books, specifically Betrayal and Massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Just me so far, :D. Im trying to win converts, but the price for the rulebooks alone are more than most of the other students are willing to pay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I am not seeing a way around this currently :/ as I understand it we only get one heavy support choice per detachment and have to bring an HQ and 2 troops per.Not sure I see any such limitations with the new FOCs... Page 120 : "You can include any number and type of Detachments...within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment" As long as you meet each Detachment's requirements, you're free to go. You could even have two 'Combined Arms' or 'Age of Darkness' Detachments in a <2000pts army as long as you have enough mandatory troops and HQs... On the other hand, the Allied Detachment specifically mentions it can't include your Warlord or be your Primary Detachment, so you of course need to include at least one Detachment which is not an Allied Detachment, but there are no other restrictions I can see in there... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I dont know, to me, the HH books have their own FOC and rules around it. I dont even consider 7th/6.5/whatever we are going to call it, even valid for HH play until perhaps Conquest comes out, there is simply no need. We played with the 7th edition Smash last HH game, as my Bloodthirster was ready to wreck face, but that was more as a courtesy to my opponent. I'm not going to touch 7th, and I hope dearly that HH books continue to refine and DEFINE what the game is, as I like to buy actual products, not printed 'permission' to just shrug and do I want. EDIT: Your a good man Kol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 It is swearing and all forms of substitution like replacing letters with asterisks and adding periods are against forum rules and are penalty worthy. You could get penalized just for editing it into your post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 1) you can do whatever you want. 2) everything has consequences 3) Horus Heresy is a supplement to the warhammer 40,000 game and thus uses the 7th edition rules per default. 4) organizing your army in detachments (from whatever book) makes your army battle-forged. 5) As per the 7th ed rules, everything scores, but only troops chosen from a combined arms or allied detachment gain "objective secured" 6) the rule from battles in age of darkness that you may not take two detachments at >2k pts refers to a rules that no longer exists. you may take as many detachments in your army as you please as per 7th ed. army composition rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I'll be honest - I'll just be utilising the Age of Darkness FOC - my 40k playing opponents have no problem and it keeps me sane so I don't have to juggle multiple books etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 As long as FW doesn't bring a FAQ or Conquest, Horus Heresy is for 6th Edition imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardus Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 As long as FW doesn't bring a FAQ or Conquest, Horus Heresy is for 6th Edition imo. Except any books released from now on from FW for the Heresy will use 7th as the default rule set. Your FAQ will probably be along shortly! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3697608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 We don't have a crystal ball but per the recent GW FAQ's the additional ally rules introduced in the Inq & IK army rules have been officially supplanted by the new 7th edition (there effectively is no) Force Org concept. Since codex/army specific rules trump core rules, at least for the time being, the HH Force Org restrictions still fully apply. Therefore the HH army unit selection restrictions remain unchanged. But this is not incompatible with 7th edition as it's actually just more stringent. The fact that the HH Force Org matches the criteria for a Battle Forged, Combined Arms detachment, all the HH Troop selections gain the Objective Secured special rule. Not to discount the fact that both players can always just agree to use 6th edition (after all you need to negotiate everything in 7th which I assume also includes negotiating the use of the core rules themselves). Until FW gives us a FAQ or some other publication that says otherwise, keep to the traditional org chart. Now watch FW publish a FAQ tomorrow that changes this position - who knows? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3698738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I for one am already praying to the Pantheon that FW will see some sense and keep some balance in their version of the game. The FOC, the Scoring rules, keep some balance for the love of the Warp! *continues to whisper to the Primordial Truth* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3698760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The fact that the HH Force Org matches the criteria for a Battle Forged, Combined Arms detachment, all the HH Troop selections gain the Objective Secured special rule. nope. p.121: "if a detachment or force organization chart does not list any Command Benefits then the units that make it up recieve no additional benefits" [i.e. like objective secured or ideal commander] The Age of Darkness FOCs have their own restrictions and benefits. Still everything scores now. Nothing stops you from fielding a combined arms/allied detachment from the legiones astartes army list, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3698976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Good call Nehekhare - I guess only in GW kind of logic is something not what it is even though that's exactly what it is. They have gotten a lot better with assigning unique names to things to remove ambiguity and it certain applies here. Cheers, -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 There is literally no reason to use the (standart) AoD FOC anymore, you just loose out on benefits - if you really need more HQ/Elites, just take another detachment. Not Until FWs 7th update that is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 There is literally no reason to use the (standart) AoD FOC anymore, you just loose out on benefits - if you really need more HQ/Elites, just take another detachment. Not Until FWs 7th update that is... This is exactly why I hope FW FAQ's things to keep the rules (FOC/Scoring) as it was for HH + 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I actually hope for the exact opposite. new army composition/scoring is better imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'll have to not engage in that one brother, as to me it invalidates quite a bit of the limitation (aka Balance) currently built into the rules. There are an endless supply of builds already with RoW on top of the FOC as it stood, getting rid of it, or circumventing it, just renders a lot of things pointless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Ah, heads up - the new basic rules are same for everybody and the Legion list itself did not change. If anything will cause balancing issues in 30k, it'll be malefic daemonology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Yeah I get that as it stands, the rules are the same for everyone, but that was before GW threw out one of the few balance mechanisms they had paid lip service to. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291403-new-force-org-and-getting-around-it/#findComment-3699559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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