Smurfalypse Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Carrying all the other bad stuff means that i can´t enjoy downloading a troop touching table cause even a 10man squad dies to a swap and flame? I used to play always mech lists cause of drakes and still was op, even if i tried to stay away of vectors, A veteran player still can win with helldrakes, no matter the nurfs , now has ~specific~ role against Infantry or enemy flyers, Its just no more i got HElldrakes! wow! i can do all open vehicles with VS and kill people inside,!! i am still with chaos marines thats why i say other ¨bad¨ choices of codex, should be fixed, but having a game-breaker unit is just bad for the enemy player.... as everyone whine about serpent spam etc...cron flyers etc.... But helldrake gave you no chance to counter it when even a marine with a 3+save die by hundreds in a turn! (joking about hundreds!) If a Drake is killing your 10 man unit with a single flame shot. . . Then you really need to look at your own play and moves :P Usually against a unit I would kill four maybe five if I was lucky per pass with the Flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 +1 to what you said! but air was the main problem after deathstars in 6th, not to much AA or lack and you cant rely on your air units againt enemys cause its who enters his flying units into game 1st, the 2nd player has more chances to destroy yours many factors occur on that, and Devourer i dont think 3x helldrake was too many points to stop you from adding other hard units like DP with mace or Skarbrand hehe extra helldrake there? oblits and other cool stuff , Of course i am with you you lost power and gain nothing, except some psyckic boost divination which is nurfed somehow with WP too there.. But i dont believe we will stop seeing Helldrakes on tabletop, maybe we will not see them as necron-CSM allies anymore 10x flyers! and helldrakes! for sure i think... Did you watch Blood angels FAQ? i feel they ruined more from all other codexes... (as i play BTs BA and i want to start IW CSM) imagine all named nurfed and lose FAST Rule om your vehicles and paying more points for regular rhino! you pay the ´red´ paint that gentlemen! i call it THE NurF! CSM do not have Divination, the only reason it is on the card is because we can roll it up with the Scroll and Huron. FAQ states that we have access to Daemonology in addition to what the Codex Entry says we have, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Come on jeske.... really Helldrakes not cheap? for what they used to do? 500 points 3x flyers that obliterate everything infantry that touched ground? 500 points its a normal cost for 3x flyers that have 2 types of attacks when enter and when shooting is like buying 2x units.... I had some talks with chaos friends saying Stormraven better! against AV maybe but, against infantry everything taking cover ADL, RUins, GtG... almost everytime i was shooting infantry i was trying to would guards with 2+ 3+ saves etc... gtg area etc...like marines.... There comes Helldrake Template out.... so easy doing 2 jobs as he can vector the transport and then burn the passengers... even better than potm at at point, I say again i see Helldrake balanced now, But i have to agree with you and all other CSM about now codex is a bit bad... FDPs nurfed, unless used only for buffs still 350 for buff belakor no master of puppet are tons of points....for blessings... Maybe we will see more Lords know with some supplements, but relax other codexes are far worst now than CSM, BA no more fast paying more points for 50p rhino! no fast anymore, worst named, Tyranids lost Charge FMC(same DPs here) so they have to move across the board again, so lets see how it goes i think the codex lacks too when you cant have DP with marks to unlocks troops that means u need extra Chaos lord for this.... About FA slots you mention i know all good things are in fast Spawns-bikes-Helldrakes, but as almost all codexes 1 slots is always not enough! aka SM heavy (centurions-preds-vindis-AAtanks-thunderfire- Ravens) just there was a lot of nurf in many codexes BA-SW-CSM-Tyranids, lets see how it goes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I respect your opinion Sn4... but you seem to be missing the point. The Heldrake was the unit that kept our book floating. It is simply this, it kept Chaos Space Marines playable, it kept them on the boards, it was the reason why some new people joined us old geezers in team Chaos. Effectively now Chaos Space Marines are dead, yeah dead. Our Maceprinces are gone, our drakes are gone and we are to enter in an edition which even more abuses cover and ignore cover mechanics. With the changes in the rules and in the FAQ the Heldrake had its damage output reduced to 1/3 for what is now still a very expensive model in both money and points. Not only that, you know what Chaos struggles most? Yeah you got it, things in cover, things in transport and things that are fast. The Heldrake was our only answer to that and if you claim that it was unbalanced then really you never actively sat down and played a veritable game with the Chaos Space Marines. One drake was mandatory but to even include a second one we had to squeeze every single point of our list, not because it was an overpowered unit, but because without it most of our army list entries were unplayable and at the mercy of everything. Tell me how is now a Chaos player going to compete in an edition where transports are scoring and even the most basic imperial or xeno army, outshoots us, outpaces us and outnumbers our. We are to enter in an edition which will see a comeback of mech, and yeah, you got it, Chaos Space Marines suck at mech. We are to enter in an edition when almost every thing can Jink... and huzzah, Chaos Space Marines cannot even shoot straight in a plank even less to all those Raiders, Venoms, Wave Serpents, Tauroxes and so on... Before speaking of whether the Heldrake is broken or not see what do we actually have to offset this nerf. Well we have nothing. We cannot shoot, we cannot move as we wish, we cannot deep strike and we cannot have all those nice Ignore Cover things that could help us a bit in the 7th. One thing is to nerf an unit but what we are witnessing is the death sentence of Chaos Space Marines as a standalone army. We simply cannot compete in a fair fight and we cannot even fight dirty. Sadly it is so that our book was carried by that single unit, now take that unit out and you disable the Chaos Space Marines. What was a squad of marines dead per turn when the loyalists can very well outfight us on so many levels that we cannot match them even closely. Now that the Imperium is all Battle Brothers tell me, who is going to knock out Chimeras and Taurox transports with Sternguard inside. I repeat and listen very well, we are to enter in an edition where transports are scoring... we have lost our only options to open those transports and roast the troops inside... nothing in our book can now stand a chance to put a dent in the incoming mechanized armies. I agree our book was ill devised from the very start, but this is effectively the death of the Chaos Space Marines as a viable if very underwhelming army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 So what FW fliers can we use as substitutes for air superiority? I admit I haven't looked at the rules in over a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The bomber might be OK. I've never used it before, though. The fighter seems too fragile and undergunned to me, though it's pretty cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Heh, I have a friend who keeps trying to say Chaos can still play, just adapt. I'm honestly trying to determine if he's trolling me or if he's really just that ignorant of an Imperial Fist player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 CSM struggle with cover? Errr... noise Marines are pretty awesome last time I checked. Also, the drake was broken plain and simple. Also, I view the CSM codex as being underpowered in no way, and I have fought against it many times. Plague Marines, Cultists, Obliterators and even now the Heldrake are all very good. Soooo many times I hear how the CSM codex is apparently weak, when in truth it's only not as good as Eldar, Tau (and who is exacly?) and can't replicate the broken combos of Chaos Daemons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Now that is crazy talk, even by my standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Carrying all the other bad stuff means that i can´t enjoy downloading a troop touching table cause even a 10man squad dies to a swap and flame? I used to play always mech lists cause of drakes and still was op, even if i tried to stay away of vectors, A veteran player still can win with helldrakes, no matter the nurfs , now has ~specific~ role against Infantry or enemy flyers, Its just no more i got HElldrakes! wow! i can do all open vehicles with VS and kill people inside,!! i am still with chaos marines thats why i say other ¨bad¨ choices of codex, should be fixed, but having a game-breaker unit is just bad for the enemy player.... as everyone whine about serpent spam etc...cron flyers etc.... But helldrake gave you no chance to counter it when even a marine with a 3+save die by hundreds in a turn! (joking about hundreds!) If a Drake is killing your 10 man unit with a single flame shot. . . Then you really need to look at your own play and moves Usually against a unit I would kill four maybe five if I was lucky per pass with the Flamer. Who said i run 10x unit? i used 5las-plas rhinos (BTs) and no chance vs VS and flamer,... the only thing solid was my LRCs to hide troops in it,... and i know spreading my units 2'' (i am not newbie though)..... i play in a competitive enviroment... thats why i say helldrakes was op... now are balanced,,, There wasnt a CSM army without 3x drakes or 2x and bikes or spawns... @TEnebris i agree with you but as i say you can complain about so many bad other things in your codex.... NOT about a GAMe-changer unit as helldrakes... ok i know was winning condition, but how about the mindless lists Typhus-zombies - drakes.... look i have bodies down and i win with my flamers and VS! hurray! ... ANd if you are still a veteran player you can still use Helldrake , plus it can burn through open-topped vehicles an extra mini buff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Yeah, the drake was OP previously, but it was also the main unit that helped carry the codex. Now it has been toned down and not much has been given in return, so huzzah for non-CSM I guess. Maybe something will shake out in the next month or so, but right now 7th isn't looking so good for Team Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If the Drake was OP, chaos would have been winning tournaments spamming it. Did it happen? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 CSM struggle with cover? Errr... noise Marines are pretty awesome last time I checked. That implies playing Emperor's Children or another Slaaneshi warband. That implies to use a Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh as one of your HQ and this also implies that you need an army based around Noise Marines. You know... there was something we players used to call traitor legions and to some of us, most of us, in fact such an option is a taboo to field in our warband. The Heldrake is a generic unit which requires no specific HQ characters to unlock, it was a weapon available to every traitor army. And if the Heldrake would be so OP then why CHAOS SPACE MARINES were not dominating the entire 6th. Please people, focus, think and observe what happened with some salt behind your words. The Heldrake was well our crutch, I lament of this fact, but this is the truth, it made actual "fluff" armies sort of viable for not all of us Chaos players spam Nurgle. What happened is that GW invalidated our book, first by making it so reliant on the Heldrake for performance, and second by taking that very unit away form us and rendering a unit with a much more reduced damage output, hardly now worth 170 points. You people seem to forget this very fact that the Heldrake was carrying our book on its wings. Spawn and Bikers come way way behind it when comes to performance. As it is now, in the 7th edition when we will see a comeback of mechanized lists Chaos Space Marines are once again on the sidelines, unable to play with the big boys. Be it tournament or casual, the CSM are skewered. Do you even realize that taking a Heldrake made your list actually playable even if it was not competitive, it gave us a chance to actually field sometime a fluffy list or two. Now I wonder how we will carry the day when now almost the entirety of our book is nigh useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If the Drake was OP, chaos would have been winning tournaments spamming it. Did it happen? No. Quoted for truth. A lot of the people posting here are missing the main problem most people had with the codex being that it was extremely mono-build. The power level was indeed low, though this can be debated to some extent because the heldrake was demoralizing. What can't be refuted is that there was only ONE way to build a list that was anywhere close to a comfortable competition grade power level, and that one way has been weakened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 People we are entering in an era of cross army transportation. Sternguard in Chimeras, Vendettas and Taurox, ... Fire Dragons in Venoms, Banshees in Raiders... things will get really ugly really soon so why in bloody hell was the Heldrake nerf needed... unless they have decided to shut down a codex. Now more then ever the turret flamer was needed for our book has no way to counter in a reliable way the threats above unless we used a Heldrake... If Chaos would be capable in shooting or in assaulting I would get it, but since we cannot do either good I shudder in the horror of taking on mechanized Sternguard/Astra Militarum with my Cultists and Havocs... which would simply not do, not in every serious competitive environment... it simply wont do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 THe curse of chaos...... everytime they go 1st in new edition and they end up last codex .......(when other codexes come out it stays years behind...countered by the following ones...... I say you are not just the ones nurfed... many codexes nurfed... have faith maybe we see more forge-maulerfiends now, and just dont be upset about helldrake dont forget he won durability cause it is vehicle, an extra rule burning open-topped vehicles we will still see 2 in everylist, i think... flamer is the weapon csm used helldrake, and is still powerfull, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Also don't forget that thoses Faqs are really halfassed and a lot of it doesn't make sens. I suspect that those are just a Gap stop measure, and that a real and deep faq will come in a few days/weeks. Now maybe it will not, but for now we can't be sure, and even so, its true, we are again boned, for now at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I see the complaint thread has reopened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 You tricked me sir, because I certainly would use it. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 CSM struggle with cover? Errr... noise Marines are pretty awesome last time I checked. Also, the drake was broken plain and simple. Also, I view the CSM codex as being underpowered in no way, and I have fought against it many times. Plague Marines, Cultists, Obliterators and even now the Heldrake are all very good. Soooo many times I hear how the CSM codex is apparently weak, when in truth it's only not as good as Eldar, Tau (and who is exacly?) and can't replicate the broken combos of Chaos Daemons! If you struggle against CSM in games then the issue is either your opponent is a VERY good player or you are a VERY poor player (not trying to be disrespectful, just being honest). Torrent of Fire tracks a fair amount of tournaments in the US and so far CSM have a massive 43% win rate since their codex release, they have yet to win a major tournament (they were taken as allies to Nick's Flying Circus list, but that was just for a Drake, which should tell you everything you need to know). These are actual numbers that give us evidence on how each army performs. Eldar - 62% Tau - 60.90% Daemons - 57% Space Marines - 52.6% Necron - 54% Grey Knights - 46% Tyranids - 48 (That's right, considered one of the worst codexes this edition has a higher win% than CSM at tournament) Dark Angels - 36% (At least we aren't them :P) Dark Eldar - 43.9 (LMAO Seriously???) Orks - 39.8 Sisters of Battle - 37.9 Even with all of those "overpowered" Heldrakes, CSM still win less than half of their games in a competitive environment. They win less than any other 6th ed codex not named Dark Angels. They win less than most 4th or 5th ed Codexes. Even with how great the Heldrake is, how dominating it was, how insane its Baleflamer is, the best CSM could do enmass is to win 43% of their total games. . . Must have been rough as a Space Marine player (assuming from your nifty avatar) dealing with the overpoweredness and godly units from the CSM Codex (yes, I am being snarky but in a fun way :P). A few people may remember a thread here about people switching to CSM. A buddy of mine posted about swapping to CSM cause he really liked my tournament lists and saw I was doing well for myself and wanted to run himself some CSM (he is a Space Marine player for the most part). Two tournaments later he quits, literally just shuts everything CSM down and when I ask what happened he says word for friggin' word "Man! It is like playing with one hand behind your back." Sit down, write up some CSM lists. . . Go to town at an event and see how it feels, instead of judging others while you get to play with your top five Codex of Space Marines. If you are in the DC area just hit me up on here with a message and we can set up a game or something, but don't think you can judge an entire Codex that you have never used because you played a few games against it. PS. Noise Marines are :cuss, get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 CSM struggle with cover? Errr... noise Marines are pretty awesome last time I checked. Also, the drake was broken plain and simple. Also, I view the CSM codex as being underpowered in no way, and I have fought against it many times. Plague Marines, Cultists, Obliterators and even now the Heldrake are all very good. Soooo many times I hear how the CSM codex is apparently weak, when in truth it's only not as good as Eldar, Tau (and who is exacly?) and can't replicate the broken combos of Chaos Daemons! If you struggle against CSM in games then the issue is either your opponent is a VERY good player or you are a VERY poor player (not trying to be disrespectful, just being honest). A few people may remember a thread here about people switching to CSM. A buddy of mine posted about swapping to CSM cause he really liked my tournament lists and saw I was doing well for myself and wanted to run himself some CSM (he is a Space Marine player for the most part). Two tournaments later he quits, literally just shuts everything CSM down and when I ask what happened he says word for friggin' word "Man! It is like playing with one hand behind your back." That last bit is the key here. Play ANY other book, and it feels dirty if your used to CSM. Thats how far down CSM are in general, everything else feels like cheating. EDIT: I still put in an hour painting trim on a Heldrake last night, cuz ETL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I see the complaint thread has reopened... FINALLY! I suspect that a real and deep faq will come in a few days/weeks. you must not allow yourself to hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Who said i run 10x unit? i used 5las-plas rhinos (BTs) and no chance vs VS and flamer,... You run a min-maxed build that was so heinous GW changed the weapon purchase limitations just to kill it, and then you have the temerity to complain about a heldrakes? Forgive me if I now dont care about your hypocricy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 People we are entering in an era of cross army transportation. Sternguard in Chimeras, Vendettas and Taurox, ... Fire Dragons in Venoms, Banshees in Raiders... things will get really ugly really soon so why in bloody hell was the Heldrake nerf needed... unless they have decided to shut down a codex. Now more then ever the turret flamer was needed for our book has no way to counter in a reliable way the threats above unless we used a Heldrake... If Chaos would be capable in shooting or in assaulting I would get it, but since we cannot do either good I shudder in the horror of taking on mechanized Sternguard/Astra Militarum with my Cultists and Havocs... which would simply not do, not in every serious competitive environment... it simply wont do. Great Khorne Above whelp my head aches with your noise. Are you a son of chaos or no? Do you not want to feel their flesh on your blade and bodies in your sights? Are you frightened by their tanks and armor? Do the Corpse God's guns scare you boy? No? Then fight. FIGHT BOY! KILL! We are the armies of Chaos! We break the bones of legions and eat the marrow of gods! It is our destiny to forever claw at the roots of the universe and pull apart the fabric of reality. Our tools are cruel and brutal: Knives, clubs, swords, fists, spears, chains, spikes, teeth, maces, axes. We bring death. Their technology will not save the, the hills of dead will grow; we are the reapers. BUt where will you be in all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Fight fire with fire? Daemonettes in spartans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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