Lord Doyok Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The new VS rules is a good trade between more attacks and +1 to vehicle damage table. It was more fitting with all the rumors we heard long before the C:CSM came out, the one that talked about "a dragon thing that is good at taking out Flyers". So I gladly accept that change. Now about the FAQ. I don't know why all these cry just because of the recent FAQ. Have we all forgotten that there was a time before the previous FAQ, when the Drakes can only shoot to the front? Do we have any problem killing any infantry unit at that time? Was the Baledrake any less cheese at that time? If my memory serves me right, all my opponent was screaming cheese at my lone Baledrake even before GW FAQed them to be able to Balefart enemy units. GW simply reset the Drake as how it was before, which to me is a good unit nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Eh. Blood Angels got shafted too. Also, Tyranids are like you - their book has been poor for 2 editions. But. I do have a tiny, tiny measure of sympathy for you. However, you can use some FW stuff e.g Fire Raptor, Blight Drones, He'll Talon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Eh. Blood Angels got shafted too. Also, Tyranids are like you - their book has been poor for 2 editions. But. I do have a tiny, tiny measure of sympathy for you. However, you can use some FW stuff e.g Fire Raptor, Blight Drones, He'll Talon. Guess what my armies are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Who said i run 10x unit? i used 5las-plas rhinos (BTs) and no chance vs VS and flamer,... You run a min-maxed build that was so heinous GW changed the weapon purchase limitations just to kill it, and then you have the temerity to complain about a heldrakes? Forgive me if I now dont care about your hypocricy First of all that was an example to explain how a troop of 5x or 10x squad dies no matter what marine-to -gaunt dies the same way to flamer..... and that didnt still changed... ( if you remember the rumors about 7th was to become VS ap4...) Why you are so offensive against me? Yes i run this as everyone runs zombies or drakes, why you dont go with CSM troops? cause they cost more, same here why taking 10x when i get the weapon in 5xsquad? And i like to say things the way they are.... not with hypocricy..... so a generic View as i see : 1)was helldrake op and nurfed? Yes. (could be worse with ap4 hits...instead ap2 imagine that too) 2) do chaos codex now is in hard place cause no good entries? ofc it is.... 3) hard time to open vehicles with chaos now? yes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Used my baledrake for the first time in 7th last night and it still burninated it's way through several squads of guardsmen. I just had to think a bit more about how I was going to move the drake. Still a good unit to have (and everyone is still scared of the thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The new VS rules is a good trade between more attacks and +1 to vehicle damage table. It was more fitting with all the rumors we heard long before the C:CSM came out, the one that talked about "a dragon thing that is good at taking out Flyers". So I gladly accept that change. Now about the FAQ. I don't know why all these cry just because of the recent FAQ. Have we all forgotten that there was a time before the previous FAQ, when the Drakes can only shoot to the front? Do we have any problem killing any infantry unit at that time? Was the Baledrake any less cheese at that time? If my memory serves me right, all my opponent was screaming cheese at my lone Baledrake even before GW FAQed them to be able to Balefart enemy units. GW simply reset the Drake as how it was before, which to me is a good unit nonetheless. I was going to write another essay response, but I'll just shorten this because I quite frankly don't care anymore. It's great that you think this is good, we don't. Personally, I think it's terrible, its the icing on the cake of a piss poor related string of faqs and a kick in the groin on top of some other changes that pretty much make Chaos a Demon spotlight and we're going to collect dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 It's getting awful heated in here, and the back and forth is getting a bit too personal. Please remember this topic is to discuss the recent changes to the Heldrake, not the entire FAQ, not to rage against GW, not to debate who has it worse in 7th and certainly not to engage fellow members in anything but respectful conversation. I know emotions are tense right now but if you're about to post a non-constructive post please seriously reconsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I'd like to say that when I said the old baledrake was OP, I meant it, but I did not mean to say that the current nerf is a good thing. Other units are much more powerful, and I haven't seen much in any FAQ that dials down the abilities of Wave Serpents, Riptides, or Wraith Knights. Also, the fact that the 360 degree firing drake was a problem was (unfortunately) balanced by the FA slot being crowded and the rest of the book being meh. None of that makes the old drake that less broken as an individual unit though, all that means is that nerfing the firing range and the vector strike makes the drake that less capable of carrying the rest of the codex, which is a very bad thing. The fact that they didn't even go half measures on this, like to give it a front firing 180 degree arc is especially annoying. You know how an infinite number of monkeys with a similar quanitty of typewriters and time can produce Shakespeare? I suspect a scaled down version of that experiment is what produced these FAQs. I guess our big hope is that Orks and DE become the new hotness so there will be plenty of open topped transports out there to flame up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Who said i run 10x unit? i used 5las-plas rhinos (BTs) and no chance vs VS and flamer,... You run a min-maxed build that was so heinous GW changed the weapon purchase limitations just to kill it, and then you have the temerity to complain about a heldrakes? Forgive me if I now dont care about your hypocricy First of all that was an example to explain how a troop of 5x or 10x squad dies no matter what marine-to -gaunt dies the same way to flamer..... and that didnt still changed... ( if you remember the rumors about 7th was to become VS ap4...) Why you are so offensive against me? Yes i run this as everyone runs zombies or drakes, why you dont go with CSM troops? cause they cost more, same here why taking 10x when i get the weapon in 5xsquad? And i like to say things the way they are.... not with hypocricy..... so a generic View as i see : 1)was helldrake op and nurfed? Yes. (could be worse with ap4 hits...instead ap2 imagine that too) 2) do chaos codex now is in hard place cause no good entries? ofc it is.... 3) hard time to open vehicles with chaos now? yes, We have obliterators, Havocs, Forgefiends, and Predators. If you can't open up a tank with any of that then I have bad news. We have an army that is much harder to use than Eldar and Tau because we don't have the special weaponry of vanilla marines or the other extra goodies of the other loyalist chapters. What we do have are some of the toughest infantry in the game and some of the cheapest transports to boot, we have upgrades that deny enemies Overwatch and the potential to turn our rhinos into cheap razorbacks with fire-points, we still have potential. I am not arguing that our armies are as powerful as tau and eldar in a straight fight, but I've never played my opponents game and won. We are chaos we do not fight with the same tactics and strategies of our enemies. So our heldrake can't fart out baleflamers anymore? We still have anti-air. Forgefiends shoot 8 shots a turn and all snap fire being equal at least 1 if not 2 shots will make it in. That means an s8 shot is ploughing into a flyer who is AV12 at best. Flyers still drop if they are immobilized. Ours is the upward climb and only the most stubborn and determined will make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Who said i run 10x unit? i used 5las-plas rhinos (BTs) and no chance vs VS and flamer,... You run a min-maxed build that was so heinous GW changed the weapon purchase limitations just to kill it, and then you have the temerity to complain about a heldrakes? Forgive me if I now dont care about your hypocricy First of all that was an example to explain how a troop of 5x or 10x squad dies no matter what marine-to -gaunt dies the same way to flamer..... and that didnt still changed... ( if you remember the rumors about 7th was to become VS ap4...) Why you are so offensive against me? Yes i run this as everyone runs zombies or drakes, why you dont go with CSM troops? cause they cost more, same here why taking 10x when i get the weapon in 5xsquad? And i like to say things the way they are.... not with hypocricy..... so a generic View as i see : 1)was helldrake op and nurfed? Yes. (could be worse with ap4 hits...instead ap2 imagine that too) 2) do chaos codex now is in hard place cause no good entries? ofc it is.... 3) hard time to open vehicles with chaos now? yes, We have obliterators, Havocs, Forgefiends, and Predators. If you can't open up a tank with any of that then I have bad news. We have an army that is much harder to use than Eldar and Tau because we don't have the special weaponry of vanilla marines or the other extra goodies of the other loyalist chapters. What we do have are some of the toughest infantry in the game and some of the cheapest transports to boot, we have upgrades that deny enemies Overwatch and the potential to turn our rhinos into cheap razorbacks with fire-points, we still have potential. I am not arguing that our armies are as powerful as tau and eldar in a straight fight, but I've never played my opponents game and won. We are chaos we do not fight with the same tactics and strategies of our enemies. So our heldrake can't fart out baleflamers anymore? We still have anti-air. Forgefiends shoot 8 shots a turn and all snap fire being equal at least 1 if not 2 shots will make it in. That means an s8 shot is ploughing into a flyer who is AV12 at best. Flyers still drop if they are immobilized. Ours is the upward climb and only the most stubborn and determined will make it. My maulerfiend still chewed through a couple of leman russes last night. Even spawn can glance a vehicle to death in assault, they have the speed and toughness to weather enemy fire and still chew up most vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 What I'm thinking of doing is buying another Heldrake and trying out this strategy: Give one a Baleflamer and one a Hades Autocannon (or Baleflamer if there's no other air units), have both Heldrakes follow each other, the Hades being the leader and the Baleflamer behind his tail (about 12" or so). Have the lead Drake pop transports with vector strikes and Hades shots, and the following Drake will burnanate the contents (and possibly vector strike other units). You now need two to do the work of one, essentially, however they still are an effective air unit. It rarely lines up perfectly like that tho. It's hard enough to get 1 flyer properly positioned , especialy since the wings are easily off the board, which at my meta means, you cant place it there. Nah, i might keep my 1 heldrake. I might just have fun with orks in 7th XD 2 are definitely better than 1 now, and they don't have to perfectly line up or be within 12" of each other (really more like 20" apart since the Baleflamer is a torrent weapon). 20" would definitely give enough wiggle room. I understand how it might not work where you play, but where I play people are much more laid back, so the wings wouldn't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrahir Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Doesn't make you wonder, why a game company with so many fans does not create (or cares for it..) an actual game, we, as csm playas have addressed the issues of our codex more times than we have even played them in 6th era, yet the company persistently looks the other way. Hastily creates another RB, hastily it creates another FAQ and people still 'bite' and continue to address the imbalance of the game itself. It is not only about the drake anymore or csm in general, it is about teh game that refuses to see the problems and goes hastily to create more problems. BLEEH Even if, one day, the company balances the game and makes it playable for anybody, i will still be suspicious of the sales policy they try behind it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I don't think Drake lost that much of potential. 45 degree angle for hull mounted weapon with torrent rules overlapping still give pretty good coverage to front side. It still is s6 ap3 ignores cover. You just have to pay little bit more attention and plan your moves. What comes to GW: they're corporation and have to answer share holder's first. GW would benefit so much more if it would not be listed in stock market but would be owned by single wealthy person or corporation. Just my 2 cent's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm40k Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've been a Chaos player since 4th Ed, so I share the frustrations of every other player at the way Chaos Marines have been treated since 2007. Having said that, I'm finding this discussion a little bit humourous, in an ironic way: - most Chaos Players, 2012: "Bah! Our Codex is too reliant on running Heldrakes to otherwise be effective!" - most Chaos Players, 2014: "Bah! This FAQ makes our Heldrakes less effective!" :P ;) I guess because I never based my army around multiple Heldrakes I can find this situation more amusing than most of us on here... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 - most Chaos Players, 2012: "Bah! Our Codex is too reliant on running Heldrakes to otherwise be effective!" - most Chaos Players, 2014: "Bah! This FAQ makes our Heldrakes less effective!" These are not at all contradictory sentiments. If you feel your codex has broken your army's legs, and given you just a crutch to prop yourself up, I think it's fair to complain. When a later FAQ knocks the crutch out from under you without fixing your legs, it's not hypocritical to complain about that, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've been a Chaos player since 4th Ed, so I share the frustrations of every other player at the way Chaos Marines have been treated since 2007. Having said that, I'm finding this discussion a little bit humourous, in an ironic way: - most Chaos Players, 2012: "Bah! Our Codex is too reliant on running Heldrakes to otherwise be effective!" - most Chaos Players, 2014: "Bah! This FAQ makes our Heldrakes less effective!" I guess because I never based my army around multiple Heldrakes I can find this situation more amusing than most of us on here... Your missing the important part where the helldrake nerf would not be cool[and imo needed] , if chaos marines got an option to play the actual game . Making 3 codex for a faction and the faction being borderline unplayable , just because 1 unit gets nerfed is an example of either huge misunderstanding what codex design is[doubt that somehow PK is able to write only good eldar army books] or GW has some strange goal for their players that doesn't include actualy playing the game. We aren't eldar whining about serpents[which are still good , got buffed in their resiliance and few armies are able to make 4+ serpents jink per turn over and over again] , an eldar army will have to adapt to 7th. CSM players adaptation to 7th is playing demons and not csm . Not that we are the only faction in this situation . BA players for example , everything costs more , vehicles nerfed and they didn't even have a helldrake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 To be honest, frankly I think that the Helldrake needed a little "taming" -shrug- BCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I agree, but again, you don't kick the crutch out from under a dude while their leg is still broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 -Sigh- Well GW are like a football ref aren't they? No matter what they do someone will hate them. BCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Roll your eyes all you like, but they can do better than this. They have done better than this for other factions. They are currently doing better than this in fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 -Sigh- Well GW are like a football ref aren't they? No matter what they do someone will hate them. BCC Do you play chaos ? Do you play chaos for a longer time then 4 last codex ? You think people are happy that our 3 last dex were helldrake dex and a codex before that was oblits+2xDPs and that there was NO OTHER VIABLE way to play armies without them. We got 3 codex lately , how many do you think we will get [and I mean like soon, because right now csm as an army don't work at all in 7th, it ain't even the case of 6th CSM armies with as few CSM in them as possible ] to start working without helldrakes ? How do you think people that had to play chaos the last few years feel now? Oh and by the way , because you may have missed it, when was the last time a csm primary list[not sorc+cultist+helldrake ally] won multiple tournaments lately ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 No argument here.....I just don't care that's all...but that's my perogative and merely my opinion obviously. So I take it most people will be heading upto their local Gamesday to meet the designers etc and give this kind of feedback? Or write a letter to the Design Studio (knowing for a fact they do read them and like feedback?)....just a thought -shrug- Maybe ask their local store manager in a genial fashion to pass on feedback to their regional manager? And yes...I play Chaos. Just there to the left is the faction I play. I have spent silly amounts of money on plastic and resin and metal. For 25 years. But I also like swimming but don't hate the moon for tidal changes. Maybe I'm just too easy going for the interweb? Or I play for fun too much? BCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Wht local Gamesday? As far as I can tell, GW isn't running events that they can't get to by bus or the cheapest RyanAir flights. There's not a whole lot of communication between the fanbase and GW these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Abyssous Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I actually don't mind the nerf about the baleflamer. Yeah it sucks, but I think it's still playable. Most of the times I've grilled enemies with it they've been almost right in front of me due to positioning etc. This is what I would have done to the drake if I were in GW's nerfteam: Heldrake that is armed with the Hades autocannon would cost the 170pts. Baleflamer would still be the same (turret etc) but it would cost extra points. Something between 20-30 points. A friend of mine who really hates the drakes agreed that with the extra points the drakes abilities would be on par with the damage it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Or write a letter to the Design Studio (knowing for a fact they do read them and like feedback?)....just a thought -shrug- Do you have their address? I will totally write a letter to the Design Studio with what I think about CSM if what you say is true about them actually reading it and caring about the feedback. I have always assumed that the signal:noise ratio between GW and the fanbase meant that they probably don't bother much with reading correspondence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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