Challanges have been fixed?!

[totgeboren]

(I started this topic just before the forum crashed the other day, so I'll try again because I think it's pretty big new for us CSM players.)

If you read the new rules for challenges, you might notice two things. First of all the easy-to-spot change, that overkill wounds from a challenge spill over to the squad, which is nice for our Lords. They no longer require a babysitter champ to take challenges for them.

But the second change isn't as apparent at a glance. The challengers are now considered part of the same combat/unit as their squads, and the attacks from the squad may be directed at a model locked in a challenge provided all other models are dead!

The models locked in a challenge must direct all their attacks at their opponent until they are dead, and no outside forces may direct any attacks at either of them until all other enemies are dead. And that's it really.

There was a topic on this a while a go, and I made an example of say 5 Termies assaulting a lone Hive Tyrant, and in 6th that would result in lots of dead Termies because of the challenge rules.

What happens in 7th is that my Champ has to challenge the Hive Tyrant. The Hive Tyrant strikes first and must direct all his attacks at the champion, lets say two attacks go through the Termi 5++ save. The Champ then dies and the overkill wounds kills one more Terminator, the closest one to the Hive (so CSM players choice most likely). However, even though the Hive is considered to be locked in a challenge until the end of the assault phase, the three remaining Terminators can attack him because they are all part of the same combat, and so use majority WS of the Hive (which is of course the WS of the Hive) and may allocate their wounds to him because there are no other enemy models in the combat! So they could in theory avenge their fallen brothers, or at the very least do some wounds!

So, what challenges do now is allow characters the means of eliminating hidden powerfists and such killy close combat weapons found on characters, unless that powerfist wielder has got some other character to act as distraction. It also allow super-killy dudes like Khârn the ability to just barge right through lesser characters like IG sgts and the like, and it allows assault squads to assault lone enemy characters without the enemy having an easy way of dodging either the characters or the squads attacks. This is especially important for us CSM players, because the Champion of Chaos rule will not totally cripple our close combat ability, just make our champions unusually short-lived.

Horray?

[RolandTHTG]

Definitely Hooray. Allows our squads to still gang up on lone MCs, and not just be locked to the slaughter.

[Scribe]

Whaaaaaaaaaat? Thats a very large change indeed.

[twopounder]

It's just another way they're trying to get rid of FoC. It makes it pointless to take squads instead of high priced MC's. For example:

 

Demon prince vs regular terminators - demon prince challenges, removing the sergeant's attacks and killing the squad or killing the sergeant and overkilling into the terminators.

 

vs assault terminators your removing  two potential thunder hammer attacks or overkiling the sergeant into the squad.

 

vs tactical marines you're sniping the power fist and removing any ability to kill your demon prince or overkilling into the tactical squad.

 

The list goes on. It's basically a cop out to sell more MC's. The only counter is to take a power unit like deathwing knights, but that's forcing you to buy a unit you don't already have in place of a unit you most likely do. It's a poorly thought out rule that's going to be dramatically abused.

[Kol Saresk]

Its actually more realistic. When a squad attacks a single MC, they don't sit back and watch and eat pizza as the sergeant attacks the MC and the MC doesn't attack just the sergeant. The squad attacks the MC and vice versa while the sergeant takes first chance at the kill.

 

Edited for some extraneous bold print.

[Sception]

Twopounder, what are you on about?  This second change to the challenge rules, if true, is clearly worse for monstrous creatures, and melee-based FMCs got hit with a hefty nerf stick.

 

I'm very pleased to hear this second change to challenges.  It significantly reduces the penalty of our challenge requirement (now our melee characters can't get shut down for a round by a chumpion, and our own chumps suicidal tendencies no longer prevent their units from beating on lone enemy character models.  On the other hand, it's almost like challenges aren't even happening in the first place, which makes them kind of a waste of a rule, but whatever.  It's still a drawback, since it can cause us to lose characters that otherwise would have hid in the back, or otherwise at least would have had a choice in who they fought.

 

But at least it's not as noticeable a drawback as before.

[totgeboren]

It's still an important rule, since it makes powerfist Champs/Nobs/Sgts unable to use their henchmen as ablative wounds. It deals with the 30 Wound pk Nobs of 5ed while retaining the ability of characters to have epics fights in the middle of a brawl.

 

I'm really happy with this change to be honest. :)

[Sception]

I am as well, and did not mean to imply otherwise.

[Xenith]

So the challenge rule no just essentially allows a few extra inches of movement to get the two challengers into b2b?

 

If the winner carries wounds into the unit and can be attacked back, that is what went on before challenges existed.

 

Just make all characters combat attacks be precision strikes.

[totgeboren]

Well, not exactly as characters can't use Look out Sir in challenges, and they have also lost precision strikes, so the only way for characters to single each other out is be in a challenge.

 

I guess it makes more difference when both characters have buddies backing them up, since the challenge then protects both from being assigned wounds inflicted by anyone else, but also prevents them from pouring all their wounds into the squad.

I know plenty of times when I have attacked weaker squad members with my special dudes because I wanted to try and break my enemy by winning with as high a wound difference as possible, but these rules will limit tactics like that. Oh well, enough from me, I'm just really stoked about this. :)

[daboarder]

the other thing as already pointed out is that it prevents the squad leaders hiding behind massive ammounts of ablative wounds, all the while still swinging at you

[Tzen]

Quick, get the most out of it before they take the rule off us ;)

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

The challengers are now considered part of the same combat/unit as their squads, and the attacks from the squad may be directed at a model locked in a challenge provided all other models are dead!

 

HURRAY!  No more of my Terminators getting punked by :cussing Wraithlords because of our "ACCEPT ANY CHALLENGE, NO MATTER THE ODDS!!!!!shift1111" rule.  Also love the "if a concussive weapon HITS a unit, they're i1 next turn, IIRC (at least we played it...) that if you wound it would make them i1.

 

It's like "What's up Avatar? *Stun gun* Oh :cuss son, you don't look too good, lets help this mother :cusser out boys."

[Emperors Immortals]

Sooo, my dark apostle won't suck as bad anymore?

What about my slaanshi lord or plain zerker mob with lord?

[the jeske]

It's still an important rule, since it makes powerfist Champs/Nobs/Sgts unable to use their henchmen as ablative wounds. It deals with the 30 Wound pk Nobs of 5ed while retaining the ability of characters to have epics fights in the middle of a brawl.

I'm really happy with this change to be honest.

Wait till you see the orksesses codex man , with being happy about nobs and challanges.

Considering that most combats are going to be done , by either +2-3 character deathstars , this helps little in 7th. If it were a early 6th change it would have been important. Right now it just helps people against melee FMC , but who in their right mind is going to play melee FMC in 7th ? not even demons , and if they do end up in melee it is going to be something like a ++2 Kairos .

The smash and glide nerf finished the melee FMC/MC good.

[Nemesor]

Good change is good. The game is gradually getting more realistic in terms of mechanics. Such as the ability to move some models in a unit, allowing them to creep forward while still firing heavy weapons. Or casualties being removed in order of proximity to the weapons being fired, and so on. I like it.

 

Being forced to issue challenges is still a bad thing (though the payoff can be excellent if we win), but this new rule definitely mitigates the awfulness.

[totgeboren]

Wait till you see the orksesses codex man , with being happy about nobs and challanges.

Considering that most combats are going to be done , by either +2-3 character deathstars , this helps little in 7th. If it were a early 6th change it would have been important. Right now it just helps people against melee FMC , but who in their right mind is going to play melee FMC in 7th ? not even demons , and if they do end up in melee it is going to be something like a ++2 Kairos .

The smash and glide nerf finished the melee FMC/MC good.

No one I play with buys a new army for each edition, and the only tournaments I attend are very laid back. Last one I attended had formal dress-code, a three course dinner in the middle of the tournament, alcohol served and you got to pick table sides if you were better dressed than your opponent.

So I have a pretty good chance of playing people who don't field optimised lists, and these changes to challenges makes such games much more fun.

But regardless of that, I'm not sure if I agree with you. If two deathstars with 2-3 characters clash, what to do when it comes to challenges isn't that obvious. If their super-killy HQ issue a challenge, do you send your champion forward to be killed, or do you send your own killy HQ forward because he has got an invulnerable save, better WS and all in all a better chance of winning? What you do will depend on what weapons you have, what weapons they have and how well the models can survive.

A Tzeentch Apostle and a Sorcerer (which I have fielded many times) can assault an enemy monster, and the Apostle with his 3++ can challenge and hopefully tank the monster, while the Sorcerer deliver his Force killing blow with re-rolls to hit because of the Apostle. Quite a difference from 6th when they would just die one by one.

In 6th edition is was just 'Send the champ forward so the Lord can kill stuff', and really nothing else.

[Redtoof]

No one I play with buys a new army for each edition, and the only tournaments I attend are very laid back. Last one I attended had formal dress-code, a three course dinner in the middle of the tournament, alcohol served and you got to pick table sides if you were better dressed than your opponent.

That sounds amazing!

I like these changes to challenges, it makes it more of a flavourful addition rather than a weird tactic for keeping your characters safe or prolonging combats. Challenges should be a fun extra that enables you to have climactic battles between your battlefield avatars, but they should be a minor point in a game that contains unending swarms of space insects and tanks the size of an office block.

[Urauloth]

I really didn't expect anything this good to happen for CSM out of the new rulebook, honestly. I still don't like the champions rule (send eye of the gods back to WHFB please if it has to exist at all) but this is a huge fix, it's eliminated the main problem with the rule and one of the big design flaws with the codex.

 

Of course, it happens right when I want to start filling my HQ slots with sorcerers to take advantage of the sweet, sweet buffs to biomancy and the new psychic power mechanics but even so. ;)