Lord Xcapobl Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Suppose I have a Chaos Space Marine army. Also suppose I have six regular CSM squads, in a standard FOC detachement, which is my only detachment. They are led by a sorcerer or two. Up until now it is a completely Battle-Forged army. Suppose that the sorcerers summon ten Bloodletters (or ten Plague Bearers, Daemonettes or Horrors for that matter). Do I suddenly have an unbound army, as now there are 7 Troops choices on the table? Or does my army stay Battle-Forged because it was so when I determined what was in it (including a psyker, fully aware that I would aim to get the summoning psyker power(s)? According to the rules in their codex, they are Troops. Do these extra summoned daemons actually count as troops choices with regards to claiming objectives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I would think that as they are a psychic effect that they exist outside the Foc, which is only used at army creation. Otherwise your army would no longer be battle forged if you took casualties that reduced you to fewer than two troops 1 HQ, which is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Whether you're battleforged or not is an issue for list construction, not gameplay. If you played a game against an opponent with only 2 troops choices in 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th edition, did you accuse them of running an illegal army after you wiped out one of those squads, leaving him with less than the required number of troops choices? Adding units via summoning to have more than six has no more affect on the rules of any formation you chose than losing troops or HQs to casualties until you have less than the minimum requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 What happens when all your 6 troop units get killed? You now don't have the minimum 2 troops for battleforged? Same for combat squads. The gain and loss of units do not count. EDIT: Mal beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xcapobl Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 The general concensus on them not affecting your FOC for being battle-Forged seems clear. Thanks. But that last question? Are they, again, just some psyker side effect, or can they be used as super-scoring troops, assuming you summon a Daemon squad that is a troops choice in its Codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 It's not general consensus, it's just how it is With the second question, you are again, over thinking it. You control them. They re troops. They score. If it was different, it would clearly say in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Can someone with the rulebook look over general rules for conjurations to confirm there isn't any 'no scoring' proviso? And to check on how they interact with the rest of your army? Do they use the allies matrix? If not, do they count as the same faction as the model that summoned them? If you're playing daemons, can your normal characters join conjured units and vice versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 There's no special provisions mal, conjured units score unless they have another rule saying they don't, amd it reads like they act as if they were paid for with points and belong to the same faction they would if they started on the board. So I don't believe there's any reason why daemon characters couldn't join summoned units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Suppose I have a Chaos Space Marine army. Also suppose I have six regular CSM squads, in a standard FOC detachement, which is my only detachment. They are led by a sorcerer or two. Up until now it is a completely Battle-Forged army. Suppose that the sorcerers summon ten Bloodletters (or ten Plague Bearers, Daemonettes or Horrors for that matter). Do I suddenly have an unbound army, as now there are 7 Troops choices on the table? Or does my army stay Battle-Forged because it was so when I determined what was in it (including a psyker, fully aware that I would aim to get the summoning psyker power(s)? According to the rules in their codex, they are Troops. Do these extra summoned daemons actually count as troops choices with regards to claiming objectives? Armies have to be legal only when you make them . If it was different losing your warlord[which you have to have] would mean an automaticly lose by disqualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Can someone with the rulebook look over general rules for conjurations to confirm there isn't any 'no scoring' proviso? And to check on how they interact with the rest of your army? Do they use the allies matrix? If not, do they count as the same faction as the model that summoned them? If you're playing daemons, can your normal characters join conjured units and vice versa? Summoned entities are are scoring as per the Conjuration description unless the power states otherwise. And it doesn't. So they are*. Not much more detail in the rules than that. Come in via deepstrike; may go into ongoing reserves if mishap, under player control, but nothing on interaction with the rest of the army. In the individual power descriptions there is the line "Rules for these units can be found in Codex: Chaos Daemons." I would tend to say that summoned daemons following the codex rules includes the allies matrix and faction of their codex just as if you had bought them with points as an ally. I don't think they will get Objective Secured though since they are not part of the Combined Arms detachment. [edit] *Thirsters on the ground are scoring. Swooping are not. Just like normal scoring rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xcapobl Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 Well, I found that scoring unless noted otherwise reference on page 26 of the new rulebook. But are they "super-scoring Troops" when you summon a squad of Daemons that are Troops choices in their own Codex, while you have a Battle-Forged army (for now even disregarding the idea of me already having six Troops choices in a six-troops-slot FOC.) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, because they are not part of the detachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Simply consider them as one of the standard unit that comes from reserves. Here, problem solved. If they are Troops they score, if they are Fast Attack they act like that and so on. A Daemon Prince and Greater Daemon will count as characters for the Slay/Challenge objective cards and the units like Daemonettes, Nurglings, Plaguebearers, Bloodletters and Horrors will have Objective Secured rule as any troop choice in a Battleforged army. How this units come to the board, be it either via Conjuration or via Reserves matters not, once on the board they act as a regular entry from their codex, in this case Codex: Chaos Daemons. So you can, with some luck on your side, summon an extra number of units. There is no limit to the points cap of summoned units, which can very well result in an extra 500-1000 points of Chaos Daemons per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 ... will have Objective Secured rule as any troop choice in a Battleforged army. Army does not matter. Detachment does. "All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule" Just like formations, the Combined Arms detachment has bonuses that apply to its units only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What fibonacci said. Even if summoned by units in a detachment, the summoned daemons themselves are not part of that detachment, and do not benefit from its rules, objective secured included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xcapobl Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 Clear. Thanks all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, because they are not part of the detachment. They are considered part of the detachment that the model who summoned them is from (per BRB), however they were not selected as a troop choice and do not get Objective Secured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, because they are not part of the detachment. They are considered part of the detachment that the model who summoned them is from (per BRB), however they were not selected as a troop choice and do not get Objective Secured. Cool! Did I miss something? Where did you find that they are part of the detachment that summoned them? The closest I can find is in Conjuration power description that says they are under your control. If you can show me where they are considered part of the detachment I can easily show that their battle field role is Troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Yea, that's just a totally made up rule. Sorry smurf. Conjured units are scoring units unless otherwise noted, but unless it was bought as part of a combined arms/allied detachment, it does not have Objective Secured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obs0l3te Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Incorrect. They do count as objective secured. It doesn't say they do not get objective secured. How ever... Under Detachments " However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment"t and Other rules will state that a unit or Army List Entry can be taken in more than one Battlefield Role (for example, a unit can be taken as either an Elites choice or a Heavy Support choice). Whichever Battlefield Role the unit is taken for, it will maintain that role for the entirety of the game. If you have several such units in your force, be sure to keep track of which role was chosen for each one. and the icing on the cake.... which I think shows they would be... just like tech marines. Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots Occasionally a unit’s Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organisation Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits. My point is, with the parts of the rule book listed above it says 1)All models must belong to a faction 2)All models must belong to a detachment 3)You take 3 elite units and a techmarine that doesn't belong to an elite slot, you don't suddenly become unbound because your have a extra elite slot. 4) Tyranids, you spawn more Gaunts, they are still a troop choice they still have objective secured. Hate to say it as someone who HATES daemons..but yeap.. they get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I'm still not convinced. First, they aren't an army list entry at all, since they aren't part of your army list. Second, what rule text makes them part of the same detachment as the model that summoned them? Why would they not be their own separate detachment? Not all troops choices in all detachments in a battleforged army gain objective secured, only those troops choices which are part of a combined arms or allied detachment. For instance, if a battleforged army takes a formation, that formation might have troops choices, but they still don't gain objective secured, because they are their own detachment, not part of a combined arms or allied detachment with the objective secured strategic advantage or whatever it's called. I'm not saying there are any rules to say they don't count as part of the summoner's detachment either, but at the moment it seems just completely unclear to me, and in desperate need of FAQ. And not the only issue, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 As Seiza on 40K Daemons says... "Saying they're not part of the COD makes no sense - what else could they be? There is no detachment for 'summoned troops'. And since a Battleforged army can only contain detachments either; A. Summoned units belong to the same detachment as the unit that summoned them (and hence receive OS if the summoners are either CAD or Allies) Or B. If a unit summons another unit... the entire army suddenly becomes Unbound If 2 was the case, you'd think they'd make a big point of that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obs0l3te Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 How would a summoned unit become their own detachment? and Allied detachments do not get objective secured, just your primary detachment. If the daemons are summoned from your primary detachment, they are part of that detachment. EDIT: If they are part of their own detachment they would be an allied detachment since the BRB says all units much be part of a detachment. Example Tyranids their "summoned" / "Created" gaunts are part of their primary detachment and scoring. No where in the BRB does it say they are not part of a detachment, it rather says that ALL models must belong to a detachment, thus they are from your primary detachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 becAUSE the rules say that every unit has to be part of one . every each one. And if there are no ally or primary demons in the list , it becomes part of its own singular detachment. And they can't be from your primary if your not runing demons as primary too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obs0l3te Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Looks like I was partially wrong.. but right.. and it still makes it worse... Page 122 Allied Detachment... gets objective secured. So If you are running CSM and you summon daemons (treated as a allied detachment) they still get objective secured. I'm pretty sure the BRB also says created units count as that armies faction unless it is from a different faction (example csm/daemons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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