One troop too many... (Summoning questions)

[Dallas Drake]

Have you got a page number on that obs0l3te?

[Sception]

An allied detachment is a specific thing, not a general term. It does not mean 'every detachment in your army other than your primary detachment'. Allied detachments are a specific game construct, like combined arms detachments, number of specific formations each treated as their own detachments, the more nebulous 'all forces from faction X' detachments of unbound armies, and the new orky detachment (the name of which I can't recall) in the ork codex.

 

If conjured daemons fall into their own separate detachment, that does not make them an 'allied detachment', and does not give them the rules there of.

[obs0l3te]

Its pretty easy if you ask me. You run a Battle Forged list, Daemons are your primary combined arms detachment you summons daemons, since the rules say they must belong to a detachment, they are part of your primary detachment. 

 

You run CSM as your primary, you summon daemons, since they don't belong to your primary faction, and they must belong to a detachment, they are allies. 

 

You can't just have units that don't belong to a detachment unless you are doing unbound.  At any rate, under the chaos daemons part it says unless its said other wise.. they are scoring.

 

I just have the digital book in front of me right now.  At any rate, GW was pretty to the point with this edition, and you can use Nids and their creation of more gaunts as a example. Nids creating nids = battle forged. Daemons creating daemons via exalted gift = battle forged. Daemons summoning more daemons = the same as the previous examples. 

[Sception]

allies does not mean 'part of an allied detachment'. If you run a helcult in your CSM primary army, the helcult doesn't become part of your combined arms detachment or gain objective secured.

 

Unbound also organizes units into detachments. You can't have units outside of detachments in general. But just because a unit must be part of some detachment, doesn't mean they are part of any specific detachment, and even if conjured daemons were assigned an arbitrary extra detachment, that extra detachment would not be an 'allied detachment', which, again, is a specific thing and not a general term.

 

I do not have the tyranid book to argue the rules there, could you perhaps quote the rules which explain how created gaunt units are treated, and then quote the rules that say conjured units are treated the same way, even when the conjured unit is from a different faction than the conjurer?

[obs0l3te]

I think you are getting formation/detachment/etc confused. A Helcult (the helbrute dataslate) is a formation not a detachment according to the formations section of the battle rulebook. Imperial knights for instance are a formation, if not used as your primary detachment. 

 

Spawn Termagants : At the end of your Movement phase, a Tervigon can spawn Termagants (see army list), even if it is locked in close combat. If it does so, roll 3D6 –this is the number of models spawned. Place the new unit of Termagants on the table so that it is wholly within 6" of the Tervigon. Models in this new unit cannot be placed in impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. If you cannot place some of the models due to the restrictions above or because you have run out of Termagant models, the excess is discarded. The spawned unit cannot move during the Movement phase in which it is spawned, nor can it charge this turn, but it is free to shoot or Run as normal. A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules. Models in a spawned unit are armed with fleshborers and may not purchase options. If any double is rolled when determining the size of a spawned unit, the Tervigon has temporarily exhausted its supply of larvae – the Termagant unit is created as normal, but the Tervigon cannot spawn any further units for the rest of the game. 

 

 

and from the battle rule book... 

 

Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots

Occasionally a unit’s Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organisation Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate command benefits  

 

[obs0l3te]

 

Formations

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation.

FORMATION POINTS COSTS

Formations do not usually include points values; just add up the points values of the individual units to find the points cost of the Formation. Sometimes though, the Formation will include an extra points cost in order to use it. In this case, the cost of the Formation is the total cost of the units plus any extra points the Formation specifies

[Dallas Drake]

I've quoted all that obs0l3te but Malisteen is having none of it. I think we had just better wait for an official FAQ.

 

Edit. Played against unbound Skyblight on Saturday. Utterly sick that the Gargoyles kept their OS.

 

Dallas

[Sception]

Formations are a special type of Detachment

Formations are detachments, that are not 'combined arms' or 'allied' detachments, and thus the units in the formation don't gain the special rules of 'combined arms' or 'allied' detachments, objective secured included. If you take a CSM primary CAD and a helcult formation, the helcultists don't gain objective secured just like any cultists you take in the CAD don't gain fearless.

 

------

 

As for the rules relating to units whose army list entry specifies that they do not take force org slots, those rules do not apply to conjured units, because their army list entries specify no such thing. Those are rules clearly referring to things like dedicated transports, or non-slot HQs like Cypher. Units that you take in your army list but that specify that they do not occupy force organization slots. Bloodletters and Lords of change do not specify in their entry that they take no slots.

 

No one has quoted any rules which specify how units that are not part of your army list, but rather are generated mid game, are treated. If such rules exist, let me know. The only rules I have been told on this matter so far that are relevant are that the units in a combined arms and allied detachments must all come from the same faction, so if your conjurer is in a combined arms or allied detachment then unless they are a chaos daemon, then the conjured units cannot be part of the same detachment. Since many factions with access to malefic are not chaos daemons, we can pretty solidly say 'joining the conjurer's combined arms or allied detachment' isn't the right answer.

 

Further, if they form a new detachment, then it isn't a 'combined arms detachment' or 'allied detachment' because those are specific things with requirements to field that the conjured unit does not meet. Even more blatantly, all 'combined arms' detachments must come from the same faction - so conjured daemons forming a new CAD is again out for the same reason joining an existing one is. Also, an 'allied detachment' can never be from a faction that is rated 'come the apocalypse' with your primary detachment. Since many factions with access to malefic are 'come the apocalypse' with choas daemons, we can say 'forming a new allied detachment' isn't the right answer for that reason as well.

 

So there are no rules that explicitly say conjured units join existing or form new combined arms or allied detachments, and multiple rules that would conflict with them doing so. Pending clarification, one can only then say that conjured units are not part of those specific detachments. If the conjured unit doesn't get to join any existing combined arms or allied detachments, and don't form any new combined arms or allied attachments, then one can only conclude that conjured units never have objective secured, because conjured units are never part of the only detachment structures which confer that rule.

 

What detachment are they a part of? Hell if I know. The rules don't say. If we ever see clarification (with GW's record, that's doubtful), then probably they'll join the same detachment as their conjurer, as an exception to the normal rules against multiple factions in the same detachment, as that would be the easiest ruling, and GW is nothing if not lazy when it comes to their rules. Sadly however, they are too lazy, so we'll probably never get a clear answer, and will be left to argue this forever, just like the infiltrate debate.

[obs0l3te]

I know Dallas Drake I think he is in denil right now =P

 

The game has had created units in it for a while now, they have always been ran the same way.... He is really reaching when it comes to this stuff. 

 

Its pretty clear from the way the rulebook reads it out how these units act and are treated. And Nids are pretty much the example for it.

[Dallas Drake]

My gaming group have ruled they have OS & are part of the CAD that summoned them, so it hardly affects me in games. Funnily, the debate was over in like 2 minutes, but I guess RAW we have nothing really to go on. Once more it's up to us gamers to fix GW's overpriced products.

[Plague Angel]

Also, an 'allied detachment' can never be from a faction that is rated 'come the apocalypse' with your primary detachment.

I've never read this anywhere. Are you sure?

[Sception]

Nope, only repeating rules quoted to me.  I don't have the rules, I could easily have been mislead on any number of fronts.  That's why I'm constantly asking for quotes of rules instead of interpretations or summaries - because there are a lot of highly contradictory interpretations going around.

 

EDIT: screw it, I went and got the rules USING METHODS THAT SHALL REMAIN NAMELESS.

 

The people who told me allied detachments could not be come the apocalypse seem to have been wrong, but that is based only on a quick reading of the allied detachment and come the apocalypse rules, there could be something hidden elsewhere, GW does that sometimes.

 

The other reasons why newly summoned daemons do not go into an allied detachment remain, though.  They don't meet the minimum requirements for such a detachment, most notably.

 

For the record, I think 'conjured units join the conjurers detachment' is one of two equally good stand in rulings for now, and the one most likely to become official should GW ever actually address the issue, which I don't think they will.

[Dallas Drake]

Some things never change.

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mw5NfJlRrcQ

[Clone]

Some things never change.

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mw5NfJlRrcQ

What a glorious beard.

[obs0l3te]

Holy cow man, your arguing rules and you don't even have the book to read them? I was wondering why you weren't making any sense on what you were saying..