Anti Monstrous Creature tactics

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi everyone. Well, it's been 3 months since I started painting, 1 month after I played my first 500 points game, followed by another 2 500 point game and finally, two 750 points game.

 

Generally my list in 750 lists were as belows. 500 points list is basically no Long Fangs, no Wolf Guard, one rhino filled with grey Hunters and a Lasplas razorback.

 

Rune Priest - LL and Jaws

 

Wolf Guard 1 - combi Melta accompany pack 1

Wolf Guard 2 - combi plasma accompany pack 2

Wolf Guard 3 - combi flamer accompany Long Fangs, flamer is deterent against deepstrikers and outflankers

 

Grey Hunter pack 1 - 8 members

1 Melta

Wulfen

Banner

Powerfist

Rhino

 

Grey Hunter pack 2 - 8 members 

Plasma gun

Rhino

 

Long Fangs

 - 5 members, 4 missiles

TL Lascannon

 

So far I only won my second 500 point game against a pink horror heavy list with soul grinder and herald of tzeetch HQ. I was extremely lucky with my 4+ nullification and blowing up his soul grinder in 1st turn but I believe I won the game by strategically placing my rune priest in rhino middle of the board, and successfully getting his objectives.

 

However it went downhill from then on. Against an Imperial Fist tactics player, my Rhino was unable to zoom up the table without being destroyed by a devastator squad with Lascannons. It was a kill point game so I had to get close to him for my meltas to do anything. But in retrospect, I should have provided him with two priority targets, either the razorback or the rhino zooming up the board. But he also had a chapter master with artificer armour waiting for me on the other side......

 

... fourth game was when luck abandoned me and also my tactical blunders: it was against a Tau list which had a Riptide, Hammerhead with Longstrike, two small squads of fire warriors led by Cadre Blade. Despite using Jaws against him, he managed roll a 2 not once, but TWICE when I cast it. My razorback also whiffed against his Longstrike despite my effort to have it come on reserve, but the damned Riptide had interceptor and shot at the LC razorback, making it snapshot its rolls. I made a further tactical blunder at this point, I should have gone after the objectives instead of killing the riptide but once in combat, I just couldn't penetrate the 2+ armour, with my powerfist GH whiffing and the Wulfen failing to get rending hits. Sighhhhh, in the end I conceded as it was just not fun anymore.

 

.... fifth game was something different. Afore mentioned daemon player changed his list, and basically managed to place a Bloodthirster, Soul Grinder and two groups of Horrors with herald. This time I couldn't penetrate to save my life, his portaglyph just kept spawning and the razorback just kept whiffing. The Long Fangs couldn't see anything while sitting on their objective and I had no idea what to do with my GH packs as the Bloodthirster was zooming all  over the place threatening my LF. 

 

Basically Games 1-4 I learnt the following lessons:

 

1) Rune Priest placement - ESSENTIAL! MUST BE IN MIDDLE OF BOARD TO DENY POWERS OR SHOOT JAWS. Not to mention have a firm bodyguard of GH and protected in a Rhino

2) Deployment - I failed dramatically in the 4 losses: I kept putting Long Fangs where they couldn't see anything in 1st game, where Rune Priest was too far away in a RAZORBACK instead of Rhino. Basically I had no game plan and ended up randomly placing my units, to the detriment of the game.

3) Target priority - Always focus on objectives of mission, be it kill points, relic or objectives. Adapt accordingly. In the game I won, I had khorne daemons deepstrike near an objective. I elected to whittle them down with firepower to somewhat smaller numbers and in the combat, killed each other off while the other smaller group contested his objective and eventually killed his warlord herald. 

 

In the game vs the Tau, I should have ignored the Riptide in the first place and went straight for his flimsy firewarrior troops.

 

But now comes the clincher: in the case of the Riptide and Bloodthirster, they both essentially had control over the battlefield the whole time. Riptide's interceptor cost me my razorback chance to kill longstrike, Bloodthirster prevented me from advancing away from my Long Fangs to contest his objectives. And looking at my list, I don't think I had anything that could counter a Bloodthirster apart from a little bit of melta and plasma power. In combat, was basically beat by the thirster despite banner, wolf guard, wulfen and rune priest.

 

So the question is: what is the general tactic with FMCs and MC at 750 levels? I know 7th Ed has changed slighlty to our favour, with FMC not being able to fly, land and assault same turn. But that still doesn't change its jump infantry abilities which will still most likely charge in next turn.

[logun]

thunder lord/wolves, missile spam, Arjac, plasma, lone wolves. 

[CatSmasher]

Jaws is a great way to deal with MCs since it is very cost effective, and they generally have low Initiative. Meltas on the rear armour, or a plas heavy squad works

[Sohail187]

Long fang squads >>>>>> MC's unless they have a 2+ but not many do.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi guys, I'm actually seeking an answer in a 750 points environment. I know Thunderlord works well along with Arjac, but those two cost a massive amount of points in 750 points. And as mentioned before, FMCs will be flying so Long Fangs aren't exactly an answer, especially if he keeps vector striking in the air.

 

I'm trying to find cost effective way to build my list to handle FMC, MC as well as whatever other list out there. Or even basic tactics to mitigate FMCs and MC.

 

Although Lone Wolves maybe be the cheapest way to tie up a MC, I don't quite trust that their two wounds can make them survive even a turn.

 

And Jaws only works will with low initiative like Riptide. Bloodthirster has I10 I think, or at least more than 6.

[Squark]

Flying Monstrous Creatures in 750... Your best bet is to use a Rune Priest to cast prescience on the Long Fangs. Regular monstrous creatures should go down to this as well. At higher point values, allying in some fliers can work, but at 750 you just don't have enough points. I'd also cut the mark of the wulfen and powerfist from the first grey hunters unit. In the current environment, we can't afford to spend points on assault upgrades for Grey Hunters (Also, power axes are more reliable than powerfists due to the extra attack from the bolt pistol).

 

Although, in this case, your opponents (or at least the third and fourth games) were min/maxing and betting you couldn't handle certain things (Actually, riptides in 750 are just plain broken, come to think of it). You're probably better off expanding to 1000 points or more when you can. Also, with the loss of jaws and the runic weapon's nullification, he should be with your long fangs now, so you can safely bring your grey hunters packs up to 10 for the free special weapon (Cut the wolf guard entirely), which should provide some more high strength AP 2 fire to take down monstrous creatures more easily. Also, twin-linked assault cannon razorbacks are probably the best variety at the moment (Although Twin-linked plasmagun +lascannon is also superior to the twin-linked lascannon).

[Kasper_Hawser]

Squark, thanks for your comment. Will reply on that later. For now though, I'm consumed with rage: JAWS IS GONE! golly gee! Sigh....... along with all the other funky powers which while not necessarily super useful (save for living lightning), really added great flavour to the game.

 

Essentially we still get better psychic defence with 4+ Deny the witch than most armies, but we can no longer stop other blessings or powers from going off. Which I interpret as, only Rune Priest can only protect one squad at a time as opposed to having a bubble of protection previously......

 

..... bummer but I guess it could have been worse. I head that Shadow of the Warp for Tyranids is virtually useless now. I can't believe I'm pitying the bugs. Still, I think nids are strong if they go Pacific Rim/Godzilla style army. And now we have no Jaws to drop the Carnifexes down the hole.

 

.... triple sigh..... not to mention no changes to frost weapons.....

 

I think my 750 list above was rendered further vulnerable due to no jaws or Living Lightning. Which will mean most rune priests will likely stick with Long Fangs for Divination buffs.

 

I'm not familiar with rest of psychic tables. Any of you play Rune Priests aggresively as part of GH assault/pressure squad? If so, which is the most useful psychic school? Biomancy I only know grants FNP if you roll right. Any other useful spells? What about Telekinesis? Are the spells in this school defensive or offensive oriented?

 

Squark, I think you are right, may as well max out the range weapons and sacrifice the assault weapons. I think you are right, power fist or axe should go as too expensive. Mark of the Wulfen will be adequate as an assault deterrant as most of the time, one will shoot with GH. 

 

If enemy assault stronger than me, Wulfen will give me a chance to hurt. If I'm stronger than them, Wulfen will also help even the odds. Can't rely too much on rending though.

 

Looks like I'll be hiding in a Rhino in most cases of FMC or MC, especially that accursed Riptide.

 

Any more advice on improvements on my list above, especially now with 7th ed and FAQ? The way I see it, assault benefits were decreased further and a big chunk of our offensive punch was taken away when the removed our powers. I can't even try Freki and Geki now.

[Squark]

Biomancy is decent if you expect the rune priest and his unit to get into close combat frequently (although if your meta is being stupid and says runic weapons aren't weapons atm, well, that won't work. Respond by abusing the psychic bubble for all its worth for however long we still have it). Telekinesis is so scattered that only a few Forgeworld psykers (who can re-roll choices or actually pick their powers) can use it reliably

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Frost Axes are not 2 handed any more. Bolt pistol and Frost axe gives a Space Wolf 3 Attacks x @ S6 AP 2 . In my book that's monster hunting equipment.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I never knew that frost axes are two handed. The entry just says "power weapon that grants +1 strength". Doesn't say anything about two handed.

 

Another important question to ask as I build up my army: what is are your opinions regarding wolf guard pack leaders now? With the new challenge system, they can no longer sacrifice themselves to prolong combat, but they still bring a whole lot of combi weapons to the pack plus the usual leadership 9. However, do Grey Hunters really need leadership 9 when counter attack is now free?

 

reason I'm asking is that currently I've built two wolf guards with combi-melta and plasma. Should I continue building wolf guard with combi weapons to lead packs? Or should PA wolf guard now be better used as a mini alpha strike combi-melta/plasma squad? Are most of you going to use full Grey Hunter squads now?

[skeletoro]

Yeah, i'd be tempted to leave the wgpls out of my rhinos and drop pods now. Still, if you're already putting an independent character inside the pod, you've already committed to a <10 pack, so you may as well take a wgpl at that point.

[Valerian]

Yeah, i'd be tempted to leave the wgpls out of my rhinos and drop pods now. Still, if you're already putting an independent character inside the pod, you've already committed to a <10 pack, so you may as well take a wgpl at that point.

 

Same here.  I already did this in 6e, but it is especially more worthwhile in 7e to just leave full packs of 10 Hunters for your Pods and Rhinos, excepting where you may need to make room for an Independent Character, where you're already dropping the Hunters below 10, then it is very much worthwhile to put a Pack Leader in for 1) the Combi-weapon to replace the lost free special weapon, and 2) to provide a character that can accept challenges to free up your IC to attack enemy troops (if that's what you want him to do).

 

For units that aren't in a capacity-restricted transport vehicle, then adding a WGPL is usually a good move, so I'd keep them in Outflanking Hunter packs (via SotH Wolf Priest, for example) and even Long Fangs packs, etc.

 

You can also choose to keep some of your Wolf Guard consolidated into a pack, to deploy by Drop Pod, perhaps as an Alpha Strike unit, or just to put an Elite assault unit up front to support the Hunters.

 

V

[Kasper_Hawser]

The thing is, we HAVE to take minimum three WG. Once we choose to get one, we're committed to get three. You made a good point that WGPL is still useful in accepting challenges for the Independent character, but what about rest of the army? I only have one other Grey Hunter pack and Long Fang pack. One WGPL will be forced to acccompany each, and for WGPL for Long Fangs, not really super useful unless something tries to deepstrike near me. Which is why I gave the WGPL accompanying the Long Fangs a combi flamer to deal with short range sneak attackers.

 

Again, bear in mind I'm working with a 750 point limitation as that is the size of my current army now.

 

I think WGPL will still have their place, in most of my games I only manage to shoot my special weapons a couple of times anyway, so a one shot combi ain't so bad.

[Valerian]

The thing is, we HAVE to take minimum three WG. Once we choose to get one, we're committed to get three. You made a good point that WGPL is still useful in accepting challenges for the Independent character, but what about rest of the army?

Sorry for the confusion; my observations were just "in general" and not specific advice toward your situation. Yes, you have to take aminimum of three Wolf Guard, and like any unit, if they aren't really contributing then there isn't much point in bringing them at all.

 

I only have one other Grey Hunter pack and Long Fang pack. One WGPL will be forced to acccompany each, and for WGPL for Long Fangs, not really super useful unless something tries to deepstrike near me.

 

Actually, that's not quite true. A terrific use of Wolf Guard for a Long Fang pack is to catch bullets - use him as a meat-shield. It's only 18 points to put a "naked" Wolf Guard (Bolter and CCW) in the front of your Long Fang pack to try to absorb initial Wounds that get through his 3+ Save (or Cover save). Much better to sacrifice a cheap Wolf Guard for this purpose than to lose an expensive and important heavy weapon trooper, or your Sergeant (which provides you the very important Fire Control ability).

 

Again, bear in mind I'm working with a 750 point limitation as that is the size of my current army now.

Remind me again what all models you have available? It's difficult to make any real recommendations without understanding exactly what you have to work with. As alluded to, above, it might just be best to leave the Wolf Guard completely out until you start playing larger scale games.

[Kasper_Hawser]

to answer your question about my army Valerian, well, may as well take the time to show off my army now.

This is my planned Grey Hunter pack 1. WYSIWIG for this Pack, but now I'll have to trip some of the assault elements, mainly the power fist guy at the back. Damn, I really love the power fist guy. (Wulfen is represented by guy with totem on pack)

Grey Hunter pack 2 aka Plasma Pack. also put a Wulfen (represent by guy with totem on pack), banner and power axe guy.

My only HQ Rune Priest with Razorback Lascannon

Actually I started termies just for the change of pace as well as the ETL challenge. Arjac, Shield & Axe, Axe and Combi Melta, and double lightning claw dude.

My current work in progress: First Long Fang and Thunderwolf Cav.

And finally my WGPL with combi plasma (custom kitbashing) and combi melta (from the tactical space marine pack)

As for what I have but haven't assembled:

Rhino

Wolf Guard terminators

Normal Space marine terminators (bought for the Cyclone Missile Launcher)

Thunderwolf cav (2 more wolves left, probably one more with storm shield, and the last one with chainfist/thunderhammer)

Reclusiasum command squad with Razorback(gave the chaplain away as he looked too gothic to me and hard to kitbash. My first Razorback was from this pack)

Space Marine Terminator Librarian finecast

Lots of Grey Hunter bitz left + 1 new box of GH

Space Marine Devastator squad

I certainly have enough to field even 1500 points if I paint everything. Problem is I want to make my list somewhat competitive as well. Hence my dilemma on wolf guard pack leaders. I'm also lacking vehicle power due to me not enjoying painting vehicles at the moment, but it looks like I've somehow spent too much in one go in an army that could change anytime soon this year. At the moment, I've got a big army but it's footslogging which is suicidal against current Tau and Eldar lists. I lack the delivery system for my troops apart from my one razorback/rhino and unassembled rhino. Damn, I really should have got drop pods from the start, but in the beginning when I played 500 points, always played on small table so didn't need drop pod. Now looks like I either spend in lots of drop pods or the mighty Land Raider, expensive though it may be both in monetary and games point cost.

thoughts?

[bluffster]

So at 750 and against MC's (this is based on the fact your playing 7th edition missions); i would run something like this.

 

HQ

Rune Priest, terminator armour, level 2 (divination)

 

Troops

10 x grey hunters, 2 x plasma guns,rhino

10 x grey hunters, 2 x plasma guns,rhino

 

Heavy Support

5 x long fangs (4 x missile Launchers)

 

Rune priest with long fangs with Div.tried and tested. transports are your first prioroty, then MC with a 3+ armour save (nids) and then low armoured troops, then riptides etc.

 

Grey hunters provide 2 x objective secured units and rhinos another 2 scoring units. id suggest staying inside your transports until a juicy target pops up and then deciding whether getting out for all those bolter shots is worth the risk. 

 

You have 25 pts spare here so you can do what you want with them!

 

close combat at this point should only be on your terms. theres no point spending the points on a CC monster until much later as hell get shot to death!

[skeletoro]

Dreadnoughts should do ok vs MCs now.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ bluffster - Hmmmmm, simple list enough, in fact was what I ran much earlier in my first game. Couldn't do jack agains the damn Riptide though. If i have 25 points to spare, may as well try fit in a Lascannon or two. Also might want to give one squad meltas instead, with banner as a backup. Meltasquad will be pressure squad while plasma squad holds objectives. In case I meet a Soul Grinder, may need the meltas in case the Soul Grinder is smart enough to stay out of sight of the Long Fangs.

 

@ skeletoro - why do you say the Dreadnoughts do ok vs MCs? Despite MC having only one smash attack, its still Smash attack at S10 with lots of chance to penetrate (3+), and get the 7+ to explode due to AP1. Still, could replace long fangs with dreadnought as long range support. Wonder if everyone still thinks Autodreads are worth it. For me, i'll probably use TL Lascannon if I ever use a dread. Despite forgoing greater number of long fangs with heavy weapons, I think dreadnought should survive better against bombardments, outflankers, deepstrikers and in a pinch, against MCs as you recommended.

 

Thanks for advice. Looks like we wolves still have many tricks up our sleeves.

[skeletoro]

smash is ap2, they have to hit (at best 3+) and then glance or pen (with the reroll it's 32/36 chance to pen, 3/36 to glance, 1/36 to do nothing). So they've got roughly a 2/3 chance to strip a single hull point or better. They'll only actually get an explodes result 4/27 of the time. It can happen, but it's not particularly likely.

 

The dreadnought, on the other hand, is then striking back with at least two (in the case of a space wolves contemptors, up to 7) attacks. It may not kill the monstrous creature but it has a pretty decent chance of wounding it. Rinse and repeat next turn - a cheap vanilla dreadnought has a chance, while a space wolves contemptor will most likely win, IMO.

 

Now, I think that's ok, personally. It likely depends on the specific MC and their points cost - vanilla dreadnoughts are quite cheap, mind!

 

Edit: to compare with a bloodthirster... I expect the vanilla dreadnought would lose due to the WS10 (only hits on a 5, ouch!) and 5 wounds. However, the bloodthirster costs well over double that barebones dreadnought.

 

A contemptor with saga of the black cull, wolftooth necklace, and second ccw on the other hand, would, in my opinion without doing a thorough analysis, win on the charge, and perhaps not do so poorly being charged either (can be given the counterattack saga if you think the bloodthirster will come for it??) it has av13, which helps, a 6+ invuln, and a TON more attacks, and it will hit the bloodthirster on 3s. And it will set you back fewer points.

 

I'm not super familiar with the chaos daemons codex so maybe daemonic rewards exist to change the analysis.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Well said. I guess the only thing stopping me from implementing that strategy is the fact that I have to buy a new dreadnought. I've already bought so much stuff as it is that isn't painted yet. Gotta stop splurging my whole salary at one go. :)

 

Is it possible that 7th ed will mark return of the dreadnoughts? AWESOME!

[skeletoro]

hehe, fair enough. I think space wolves contemptors are a hidden gem right now. I have no idea why they have an extra 2 base attacks in their profile, but they do, and it has not been errataed in many months now.

[Valerian]

Don't forget that our regular Dreadnoughts can take a Wolf Tooth Necklace, too, and it's only 10 points to upgrade to always hitting on 3+.  It's a no-brainer if you're going to take a Dreadnought.

 

V

 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Dreadnoughts are making a comeback! Let the old ones awaken, for the Wolf Time is coming, their machine gears be cleaned with sacred oils, the hammers of the Iron Priests smash into ancient bolts to strengthen them (or just plain give a wake up call to their chassis). Seriously, with the 3+ wolf tooth necklaces, it means we can go toe to toe even with the likes of Avatar, Bloodthirsters and Daemon princes. Finally, Dreadnoughts become the monsters they're meant to be, albeit with more vulnerabilities than actual monsters, but I'll take the advantage and disadvantages as balanced now, whereas the disadvantages outweighed the advantages in the past.

 

Pity we can't unlock Dreadnoughts into Heavy Support, although with allied detachment, we could ally with ourselves and pump out six dreadnoughts as well with two separate HQs and four troops in separate detachment slots...

 

..... with all these detachment shenanigans, I really have to wonder what GW was smoking when they wrote 7th edition. I've already seen a 9 helldrake list in 1500 points (nevermind that Helldrakes have been nerfed, they're still powerful). Oh well, chances are they can't hurt dreadnoughts much if we decide to spam dreadnoughts too.

[skeletoro]

My personal philosophy is that units should be balanced in terms of their points costs, mostly, and by just not being totally OP. Every units should have strengths and weaknesses, and there should be enough positive synergies (both in terms of patching up weaknesses and amplifying strengths) that spamming a single unit is rarely a good idea.

 

I think often 40k succeeds at this, perhaps more than we give it credit at times (many OP spam lists do have weaknesses). It's certainly not perfect in that regard though.

 

Anyway, if units were balanced better in terms of the above, the FOC wouldn't need to be leaned upon heavily by the design team for balance considerations.

[skeletoro]

Also, only one grenade can be thrown per unit per phase now. I assume that this 'thrown' includes assault, given the context in the BRB. Though I guess it could be argued that 'thrown' only includes shooting attacks.

 

Anyway, assuming my interpretation, that's quite a big boost to dreadnoughts. A single krak grenade isn't likely to do much to an AV12 dreadnought - at best a single glancing hit.