Anti Monstrous Creature tactics

[Kasper_Hawser]

My personal philosophy is that units should be balanced in terms of their points costs, mostly, and by just not being totally OP. Every units should have strengths and weaknesses, and there should be enough positive synergies (both in terms of patching up weaknesses and amplifying strengths) that spamming a single unit is rarely a good idea.

 

I think often 40k succeeds at this, perhaps more than we give it credit at times (many OP spam lists do have weaknesses). It's certainly not perfect in that regard though.

 

Anyway, if units were balanced better in terms of the above, the FOC wouldn't need to be leaned upon heavily by the design team for balance considerations.

 

Uhm, to counter your statement of 40K 'often' succeed in making balanced units with appropriate points cost, I can only say two words.

 

Riptide. Wraithknight.

 

OK, so it isn't fearless. So it is only WS2, BS3. So it has very few attacks. Yes it has weakness. 

 

But with the current edition and restrictions to assault, HOW THE HECK DO WE EXPLOIT THE WEAKNESS?!?! That bloody bugger is most of the time jumping all over the place and if it isn't, will give itself a 3+ invuln AND FNP.

 

Wraithknight? Most of the power of Riptide except it IS fearless. Only weakness is having a 3+ armour, but TOUGHNESS 8. What the hell? And oh yeah, it can jump all over the battle field which means Arjac can never catch it.

 

You gotta admit, you see either one of these on board and you feel much of the fun is taken away. Your ENTIRE army is threatened just by one of these, whereas none of your units (save RP with Jaws but now that's gone too) even gives them a bit of a sweat.

 

My worst fear since asking you guys whether I should start 40K back in February may be coming true: I enter the game in an entirely new era of spam, unbound and imbalance army that requires a butt load of sello tape to make fun and playeable again. I already have one friend in the store who is just dying to spam Riptides, nevermind everyone hates them and begs him to mix up his list. Now I'm afraid I have to stop playing with him just because he likes that broken unit.

 

Fark.

[DanPesci]

My answer to 'guy at my local store wants to play with just riptides'...Humour him for a game, sure you'll probably get completely tabled. However that should then give you grounding for pointing out to him just how stupidly broken and unfun that list is for you to play, and that there is no point you playing him in the future. If he still doesn't get it after that and wont even try to play you with different lists, don't play him. 

 

I have the luck of having a few mates who play 40k, who are more than happy to play to houserules of 'we are only taking battle bound this weekend'. Similarly there are a couple of gaming groups in my area, who would be more than happy if i were to say organise a night, with that ruling. Sure folk will want to play unbound lists, but they can do that on another night (and ill turn up with 25 CF/SS lone wolves, or 8 wolf lords, or drop pods full of combi melta wolf guard - lets see who cant chase down some riptides now! haha).

 

Obviously not everyone is so lucky, and its kind of down to what your local meta is doing, but i think most gaming clubs, and even some gaming nights at local GW, theyd be more open to the suggestion of battlebound only nights, rather than losing regulars due them no longer enjoying playing due to daft OP unbound lists

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks for the support guys.

 

I just looked over some of the new psychic tables. Sanctic Daemonology, it actually seems pretty good, although the primaris is specifially towards daemons. Would be awesome if they could decrease the invuln of any units, would be like turning thundernators into veteran guardsmen. 

 

Biomancy powers still seem good as well. 3 out of the 6 spells potentially buffs the Rune Priest into daemon prince slaying mode (Iron Arm, Endurance and to a lesser extent, warp speed)

 

What about Telekinesis? Is it mostly a shooty spell kind of discipline? If so, how powerful are they?

[Squark]

The sane policy on Unbound, or force org shenanigans beyond one Primary, one Ally, and one Fortification*, is, "Permitted, but Opponent(s) have the right to refuse to play against you after reading your list, no questions asked."

 

 

 

*technically, the base four fortifications are no longer in the main rulebook, but most metagames will grandfather them in even if Stronghold Assault is otherwise banned.

[Valerian]

Also, only one grenade can be thrown per unit per phase now. I assume that this 'thrown' includes assault, given the context in the BRB. Though I guess it could be argued that 'thrown' only includes shooting attacks.

 

Anyway, assuming my interpretation, that's quite a big boost to dreadnoughts. A single krak grenade isn't likely to do much to an AV12 dreadnought - at best a single glancing hit.

That's no different than how it was in 6e, as far as I can tell; only one model could throw an offensive grenade as its shooting attack in a given unit.

 

Any number of models in a unit, however, can use their grenades in close combat, though - same as before.

 

V

[Leif Bearclaw]

I think that the 'thrown' bit in the grenade descriptios would refer to overwatch attacks. Each grenade type specifcally mentions throwing, whereas under assault it's just 'can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements and MCs', no mentioning of throwing. So every guy can try to glance a dread with krak grenades. Which is why you bring a Contemptor .

[CatSmasher]

I had an discussion regarding the grenades this weekend. It clearly states that only on member of the unit can throw per phase

[Valerian]

I had an discussion regarding the grenades this weekend. It clearly states that only on member of the unit can throw per phase

 

Again, it's no different than before.  If you're in close combat with a vehicle (Grey Hunters in close combat with enemy Dreadnought, for example) can still all use their Krak grenades against it.  Rules are on page 181.

[CatSmasher]

I'm not sitting by my rule book now, but I'm sure it clearly states each unit can only toss one per phase.

[skeletoro]

'some grenades may be made to make shooting attacks or attacks in the fight subphase, albeit to different effect. Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase'

 

As I said before, perhaps 'throw' is supposed to apply to shooting attacks only, but I wouldn't assume that.

[Valerian]

I'm not sitting by my rule book now, but I'm sure it clearly states each unit can only toss one per phase.

You don't toss/throw grenades when using them in close combat; that only comes into play in Shooting Phase or during Overwatch.  You just use them.  Every model with a grenade in the unit can attack with it in an assault, if you so choose (certain models, with other high-strength attacks, like a Power Fist, are going to use those instead), but you only get a single attack from each model with a grenade, regardless of number attacks or other bonuses.

[Valerian]

'some grenades may be made to make shooting attacks or attacks in the fight subphase, albeit to different effect. Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase'

 

As I said before, perhaps 'throw' is supposed to apply to shooting attacks only, but I wouldn't assume that.

 

'Throw' does come into play only in Shooting and Overwatch - the Shooting profile for a Krak grenade has a range of 8".  'Throw' does not come into consideration in an assault, where the Krak grenade's profile now has a range of '-'. 

 

So, in summary:

 

Only 1 model in a Grey Hunter pack (easy example) can Throw a grenade up to 8" in the Shooting phase, instead of Shooting his Boltgun or Bolt Pistol.  Same goes for Overwatch.  In an assault against a vehicle/building/gun emplacement/monstrous creature, every model in the Grey Hunter pack can make a single attack with the Krak grenade, if they don't have anything better to attack with.

 

V

[skeletoro]

Your interpretation is certainly a consistent one, but the rules don't make it clear that throw doesn't apply to assault. It's vague and needs errata.

[Valerian]

'Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements...and/or Monstrous Creatures..., but have to be clamped in place to maximize effect."  "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regarless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." (emphasis mine).

 

Again, you're not throwing your grenades in the fight sub-phase. 

[skeletoro]

ah, right, i thought that only melta bombs were actually clamped, while krak grenades were thrown. Ok, I think that makes it clear enough in that case. I'm convinced. Though i really do think an amendment for clarity is in order here.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I have lost yet another 750 game tonight. Daemon player. He came at me with similar list before: 

 

Bloodthirster

Herald of Tzeetch

Soul Grinder

2 squads of 10 pink horrors.

 

Basically I got beat by end of turn 5. It was also my first encounter with daemonology spawning. My poor Rune Priest could literally do nothing as he had rolled on Biomancy and only got enfeebled. Not a bad power but only somewhat useful on the Bloodthirster. The daemons just kept spawning, by turn 3, he had something like 7 mastery levels to add to the D6 roll. Had a portalglyph as well which I just couldn't roll to glance.

 

But the constant spawning isn't the reason I lost. His Soul grinder could see my Long Fangs, and inspite of me deploying in ruins on different levels, he still managed to take down two long fangs at a turn. By turn 5, the Soul Grinder had wiped them out. I kept my two Grey Hunter troops close to my long fangs as the Bloodthirster was around and I was supposed to wait for him to land. Guess what? I got impatient. I had forgotten that on his turn, he can land but can't assault. But if I downed on my turn, he would have crashed and then be able to charge on his turn. And guess what? My melta of all things managed to hit him. And hurt him. And he failed his grounding test.

 

Suffice to say, he was smiling at the Grey Hunters, wounded, bloody, and ready to go with his axe. 

 

Meanwhile, in addition to all the nasty summoning, which included another huge group of bloodletters, he casted Cursed Earth and in the warpstorm table, managed to roll something which improved all the invuln saves of his daemons. Basically all the horrors got 2+ invuln saves, bloodletters got 3+.

 

I think I'll have to put down my Long Fangs for awhile. They're just too fragile, and I just can't afford to give them all Lascannons without sacrificing my 2 core troops of Grey Hunters. And Missile Launchers just doesn't do jack against AV13, as well as flying creatures.

 

Sigh...... the only thing I can think that I should have done, was just rush my 2 rhinos forward to get rid of his Tzeetch horrors and go after the objective on his side of the board. But I was so scared of the Soul Grinder and had forgotten that my Rune Priest DID have Melta bombs, and 2+ armour as well. Not to mention the Long Fangs would be exposed, the Blodthirster would have killed them, sat on the objective as scoring, and got line breaker all at one. He had already gotten first blood over me by blowing my razorback apart with the Soul Grinder's autocannon (over 2 turns).

 

There are three ways I can think about this. Either I am still a total idiot in regards to target priority and deployment, or in reality, there was literally nothing I can do in this sort of list. Which means my so called balance list has actually become EXTREMELY OBSOLETE and unplayeable. Third way to think is daemonology spawning is somewhat overpowered. I don't know.....

 

double sigh........

 

I'm really reluctant to bust my wallet again to get another bloody tank. Within my current inventory of unpainted Space Wolves, I just don't see any counter or balanced army that can handle any situation.

 

My 7th edition list, basically the same I used in 6th ed (still lost), except that Rune Priest now has Runic armour and melta bombs.

 

Rune Priest - rolled Biomancy, Enfeeble

 

Wolf Guard 1 - combi Melta accompany pack 1

Wolf Guard 2 - combi plasma accompany pack 2

Wolf Guard 3 - combi flamer accompany Long Fangs, flamer is deterent against deepstrikers and outflankers

 

Grey Hunter pack 1 - 8 members

1 Melta

Wulfen

Banner

Rhino

 

Grey Hunter pack 2 - 8 members 

Plasma gun

Rhino

power axe

 

Long Fangs

 - 5 members, 4 missiles

Razorback withTL Lascannon

 

Thoughts guys? 

[Squark]

About all you can do if expanding is off the table is, point blank, tell your opponents bringing a riptide, wraithknight, or 2 Giants like that Bloodthirster and Soul Grinder is virtually impossible for you to deal with at this point value with your collection, so you won't play with them because the games feel like foregone conclusions.

 

 

That being said, I do see a list that might be somewhat effective here.

 

HQ: Rune Priest -125 points

-Mastery Level 2

 

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -220 points

-2 Plasmaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Drop Pod

 

10 Grey Hunters -205 points

-2 Meltaguns, Power Axe, Drop Pod

 

Elites: 6x Wolf Guards -188 points

-5x Combi-plasma

-TDA + Heavy Flamer

-Drop Pod

 

Total: 738 points

 

12 points for upgrades, although I'd cut the power axe or the mark of the wulfen and go adjust the wolf guard to have some combi-meltas, maybe even go all 6 combi-meltas.

[Kasper_Hawser]

About all you can do if expanding is off the table is, point blank, tell your opponents bringing a riptide, wraithknight, or 2 Giants like that Bloodthirster and Soul Grinder is virtually impossible for you to deal with at this point value with your collection, so you won't play with them because the games feel like foregone conclusions.

 

 

That being said, I do see a list that might be somewhat effective here.

 

HQ: Rune Priest -125 points

-Mastery Level 2

 

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -220 points

-2 Plasmaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Drop Pod

 

10 Grey Hunters -205 points

-2 Meltaguns, Power Axe, Drop Pod

 

Elites: 6x Wolf Guards -188 points

-5x Combi-plasma

-TDA + Heavy Flamer

-Drop Pod

 

Total: 738 points

 

12 points for upgrades, although I'd cut the power axe or the mark of the wulfen and go adjust the wolf guard to have some combi-meltas, maybe even go all 6 combi-meltas.

 

Unfortunately Squark, this would mean getting 3 Drop Pods. Not cheap no matter which country and what currency you earn.

 

Though it may not be the best and efficient way, perhaps I'll start using Thunderwolves. I have already painted one with a stormshield, with two more powerfist/chainfist wielding ones, should be able to make my opponent sweat a little. They may not be efficient, but if they can scare my opponent even a little, then it'll allow me to control the battlefield a little instead of being mortally afraid all the time of that big thing in the sky.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they move 12" in movement phase,  2D6 run pick the highest, rerolleable with feed. 2D6 charge as well.

[Baulder]

Yes, fleet allows them to re-roll charge distance and run. Though I thought the run distance for them was just d6 (rerollable, could be wrong there tho)

 

Also I don't think that thunderwolves have access to chain fists in the codex to you may just have to use that model as a "counts as". Any of the models can replace their bolt pistol with a SS. But only 1 model can replace the cc weapon with a powerfist etc. So you may have to run the unit with 1 powerfist 1 SS and the rest "counts as" normal gear.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Against the daemon player with the Soul Grinder and Bloodthirster, I think I'll try using this next:

Rune Priest

Runic armour

Master level 2 - Biomancy

Storm Bolter

Wolf Guard X 6

5 combi meltas

1 with melta bombs

1 TDA with Heavy Flamer and power axe

Drop Pod 1

Grey Hunter 1

7 members

Banner

Melta Gun

Wulfen

Drop pod 2

Grey Hunter Pack 2

5 members

Flamer

Drop pod 3

Grey Hunter pack 3

5 members

Plasma Gun

Rhino

Hunter killer missile

OK, here are some of my strategy or justification for this list:

Assumption 1: He goes first and it is objective game.

Rhino will deploy near my objective. Assuming I fail to seize, at this point he will have a choice.

a) He flies towards my side towards the Rhino, in which case, he has taken the bait. Then he will not be a threat until turn 3. He would have to land at turn 2, then turn 3 assault, in which case, my Rhino should protect me for another turn, 2 if I'm lucky unless he smashes and penetrates. Strength 6 vs Armour 11, will need 5s to glance, should survive turn 3. Plasma will shoot, maybe strip a wound or two.

Meanwhile, my combi melta group and Grey Hunter Pack 2 will deploy first. Combi melta, if I'm lucky, will aim for the Soul Grinder and hopefully explode destroy it. 5 combi meltas, statistically 3 of them should hit with good penetration chances and glance at least. Unless you are telling me soul grinders have 4 hull points...... then I'm farked. In which case, next turn he will assault my Wolf Guard and I will try to ensure melta bomb guy is protected for the last attempt to kill the Grinder. Basically Melta bomb guy will be my last hope in case my combi meltas fail to kill the Grinder.

If Grinder dies, then hopefully my Terminator can tank enough wounds for the Wolf Guard to survive next round. either they will move towards Grey Hunter Pack 2 to support, or move towards another objective if Grey Hunter pack 2 is doing well.

Grey Hunter pack 2 will deploy near enemy objective and attempt to clear the troops near it. As mentioned, if shooting goes well, pack 2 will secure it and Wolf Guard pack will move to another objective.

At this point he has a choice: Bloodthirster either come back to support his home base, in which case, I think the two packs will be enough to tie him down for a turn or two. Meanwhile pack 1 with Rune Priest, when he comes, will go after objective. With Objective Secured rules, I should be able to last till turn 5 for the game to end.

However, there is a possibility that he ignores my Grey Hunter Pack 3 in Rhino base, and stay back to anticipate the Drop pod attack. In that case, I will choose my first 2 drop pods as combi melta Wolf Guard AND Grey Hunter Pack 1 with Rune Priest. Those two will proceed to target the BloodThirster for First Blood and Warlord. With Master level 2, I'm hoping to get either Iron Arm or Enfeeble. Enfeeble will be extremely helpful in softening the Bloodthirster, whereas Iron Arm will convert my RP into CC monster.

If not, oh well.... just focus fire until Bloodthirster dies.

Grey Hunter pack 3 will hide in Rhino near objective, out of sight if possible. If he deepstrikes the bloodthirsters, I'll stay in Rhino and slowly whittle them down with stormbolter, plasma and 1 bolter gun. Assuming he charges me with Furious charge Strength 5, it is still a six to glance me. If I survive that round of combat, the bloodletters won't be able to hurt me anymore with strength 4. In anycase, I will then deploy in terrain so that can reduce bloodletters charge to Initiative 1.

This list is extremely risky, but so far, I've been playing defensively and conservatively, always intimiadeated by whatever big monster my opponent has, be it Riptide, Bloodthirster, or Commander Pask in a Leman Russ exterminator. No more, this time I'm taking the fight to them, and win or die trying.

There are other factors, such as the portal glyph he likes to throw out and that damnable Warp Storm Table. For the portal glyph, I can only pray the Wolf Guard survive long enough to use its melta bomb on it, or the Hunter Killer missile manages to penetrate and glance it.

thoughts?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sigh, just as I aim to finish my first Venerable Dread, which I'm modelling after Bjorn no less, my daemon player friend is now about to open a can of whoopass with Be'lakor. As if the Bloodthirster isn't bad enough, now we got one that can actually cast spells like no tomorrow. Damn.

[DanPesci]

im not sure on the exact points cost of a bloodthirster and be'lakor, but that surely uses up at least 500+ points of his 750? Pretty sure balakor is 350 points by himself.

 

Aye, he can summon new gribblies, but if you drop two pods (one full of plasma toting wolfguard, and another grey hunter unit) next to be'lakor first turn and gun him down, he's not gonna be doing much good summoning?

 

Does be'lakor start out flying? ground with grey hunter massed bolters (he only has a 4+ inv and T5, so 8-9 rapid firing bolters SHOULD get a wound on him and ground) and then let rip with wolf guard plasma. If the bloodthirster as you say above cant actually charge the turn it stops flying (unless youve grounded it), just ignore it for your first turn.

 

As i say, not hugely up to date on the daemons stuff, but this seems like your best course of action. Play brave, get in those big guys faces first turn, but focus your fire on one before the other.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Will do Danpesci. Stick to the battle plan and don't let him intimidate me.

[Grimtooth]

Frost Axes are not 2 handed any more. Bolt pistol and Frost axe gives a Space Wolf 3 Attacks x @ S6 AP 2 . In my book that's monster hunting equipment.

They weren't two handed and we already got 3 attacks when paired with a bolter/bolt pistol.

[DanPesci]

 

Frost Axes are not 2 handed any more. Bolt pistol and Frost axe gives a Space Wolf 3 Attacks x @ S6 AP 2 . In my book that's monster hunting equipment.

They weren't two handed and we already got 3 attacks when paired with a bolter/bolt pistol.

 

 

aye, also its only monster hunting equipment against something thats hitting you at I1, as with the axe you'll be going last. Granted, if its an axe hidden in a squad of grey hunters, you're probably still gonna get to use it (albeit losing a few brothers before you do)