Legion vs Codex tactics for depleted armies?

[Valkyrion]

Could the HH lists be used to create a fluffy depleted 40k army in terms of organisation?

 

Say for instance a chapter homeworld is invaded and the chapter is down to last couple of hundred marines - would it make tactical sense to simply have large blocks of bolter marines being supported by smaller squads of flamer marines, whilst your remaining lascannons all form a unit of themselves, dividing apothecaries and techmarines among the survivors?

 

Or does the Codex better represent what tactics should be used in spreading out firepower, unit composition and so on?

[Daemon2027]

I would say it comes down your preference and how you write your background.

 

If the chapter is very codex loyal they wont deviate while a marine draws breath. A more pragmatic chapter may see they benefits of adopting an organisation more akin to the stuff we see in the HH.

[Russ Brother 92]

IMO. I'd find that it would be plausible to have a smaller group actually go more towards the Codex teachings - the dispersion of fire power among squads is something practised in modern military organisations (see the current British Army - I'd recommend looking at 16 Air Assault Brigade or 3 Mech. Brigade as examples), this would be due to lacking a surplus of necessary equipment or skills.

 

On the other hand I could certainly see a slightly more vainglorious (again imo.) Chapter Master going down the route of wanting his Chapter to go out like 'the warriors of old' and form up into Legion-esque units with the specialists in certain formations/squads etc to better allow the concentration of fire power on certain targets.

[Tiger9gamer]

I imagine that if an entire chapter wages war on a planet, they would use legion tactics. I imagine they would bring out all the relics and wargear to face down the threat. Like, for example, The Guardians of the Covenant deploy it's entire chapter to stop a Xenos incursion into the starsystem and decide the best way to kill it is to use the old ways

[Emperor's Furor]

I had an idea two or three months ago to use Death Guard rules for Scythes of the Emperor, so I could legitimately equip sergeants with scythes that do special attacks. A long with boarding squads being salvation teams and support squads with flamers or meltas guns being dedicated tyranid purging squads.

[Beta galactosidase]

Legions are large, chapters are small. If a chapter gets even smaller, it should act like it is instead getting larger. This is what you are telling me.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing as Russ Brother. You'll also notice that legions had entire specialized companies for siege, assault, armor, etcetera. The chapters have generalist battle companies because they often deploy only a company, but if they deploy 200+ marines, the way a legion would, they start to use mono-task reserve companies again.

[A D-B]

What does it really add that playing Unbound doesn't? Now you can choose any unit for an army, you can field things like Terminator Companies and Assault Companies and strike forces that've been out on their own for a long time and need resupply, etc. F'rex, if I wanted to field a depleted Chapter, I'd choose units from a depleted Chapter, rather than using rules that the faction's ancestors used 10,000 years before, when they had the advantage of squillions of Marines and factored that into their fighting style.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a case of doing whatever you want and not letting anyone act like the Fun Police on you. I mean, I could use High Elf Spearman Regiment rules to represent an Iron Snakes phalanx and call it fluffy, but is it really fluffier than any one of a half-dozen more traditional options?

[Tiger9gamer]

I get what your saying, ADB, but as I look at it the codex doesn't supply a lot of things Mechanically that legions can do,  like having terminators as actual troops and loosing them all becoming a crushing point of the battle for the chapter. Or show how desperate the marines have become, Using eons old relics and tanks that have been locked away in the chapter vault and brought out for one last chance at survival.

 

 

 

Maybe Raven Guard fans like I have become want to have the army be a little sneakier than the Codex and want to  have infiltrating troops that just rise up from cover and start shooting, Having done the pre-deployment before the enemy can know what happened. Or use the Decapitating strike RoW to show the same army going in for the kill, getting preferred enemy against Independent characters while not bothering to bring a lot of tanks or traditional Heavy Support.

 

 

Maybe Imperial Fist fans want to play a detachment desperately holding on to a breach, and the enemy can take advantage of it forcing the game to turn 6. They are still similar to the Codex with most of the rules concerning bolters and Heavy weapon teams, but gain a few new details that help flesh out the character of the chapter.

 

in my opinion there is a lot of ways Legion rules can represent 40k armies, adding that flavor some people want. =D

[Valkyrion]

Is playing a 30k list in 40k using the FOC's therein (the FOC that has been around for 15 years) really less traditional than using an unbound list?

 

In 30k I can have jump pack gunslingers, power armour sniper rifles, power armour shotguns, fluff appropriate veteran abilities, boarding shields, apothecaries attached to any squad I like and so on... in unbound 40k I might be able to get close but there'd be a lot of 'well, this tactical squad has an apothecary so they are using the Red Scorpion rules. These guys are my hot shots so they are using Raptors rules. These guys are using White Scars, these guys Imperial Fists. No, that guy there isn't an apothecary, he's a Sanguinary Priest counting as an apothecary. This guy is a Blood Angel chaplain, but this chaplain here is an Ultramarine. This land raider here is going to deep strike, because it's a red one, but this one here has a 4++ save because it's a green one...'

 

30k would let you do it all under one list whilst making a completely ramshackle force that is still viable. There's no way to give your 40k Ultramarine a shotgun, because his bolter has run out of ammo and he found it in the hands of a dead scout, or the divvying up of equipment to where it'd be most useful, like 10 guys with flamers scouring the halls of a fortress monastery from aliens whilst 100 bolter guys dakka them to death on the surface behind a wall of boarding shields.

[A D-B]

Is playing a 30k list in 40k using the FOC's therein (the FOC that has been around for 15 years) really less traditional than using an unbound list?

 

In 30k I can have jump pack gunslingers, power armour sniper rifles, power armour shotguns, fluff appropriate veteran abilities, boarding shields, apothecaries attached to any squad I like and so on... in unbound 40k I might be able to get close but there'd be a lot of 'well, this tactical squad has an apothecary so they are using the Red Scorpion rules. These guys are my hot shots so they are using Raptors rules. These guys are using White Scars, these guys Imperial Fists. No, that guy there isn't an apothecary, he's a Sanguinary Priest counting as an apothecary. This guy is a Blood Angel chaplain, but this chaplain here is an Ultramarine. This land raider here is going to deep strike, because it's a red one, but this one here has a 4++ save because it's a green one...'

 

30k would let you do it all under one list whilst making a completely ramshackle force that is still viable. There's no way to give your 40k Ultramarine a shotgun, because his bolter has run out of ammo and he found it in the hands of a dead scout, or the divvying up of equipment to where it'd be most useful, like 10 guys with flamers scouring the halls of a fortress monastery from aliens whilst 100 bolter guys dakka them to death on the surface behind a wall of boarding shields.

 

That's kind of my point, too. You can do pretty much anything in a Heresy army list. But then you're doing it because it lets you take whatever you want, not because it's really fluffy or whatever. You can retrofit any rules to be "Well, they're fluffy for me", but I think it's shaky ground to suggest they're the best way to really show anything beyond what they show. It's often intensely convenient that "Because it's fluffy" always "trades up" to better/more effective/more varied rules. The first one, sure, is what starts arguments. But the latter two? No harm, no foul, the way I see it.

 

And like I said, I'm not the Fun Police. I've played plenty of games without FOrg anyway, or with random rules on the fly, or unmatched points. It's not something that bothers me, but in answer to your original question? No, it doesn't really represent that one thing better than the actual rules for them. It does, however, conveniently represent whatever you want it to represent and make it better and more varied, as you can retrofit it and justify it to represent whatever you want, really. 

 

I wouldn't argue against it, but similarly if someone did it in my campaign, I think a lot of us would wonder why it went in that direction rather than any of the actual 40K options, which would've covered it in a lore-friendly way just as easily or more appropriately.

 

But then, I'd probably be okay with someone using High Elf Spearman rules for their Iron Snakes phalanx, if it came to the crunch. We're not fussy in our gang.