Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Wow, at one point I am ready to add you to the rolls of glory, at the next, carve my name into your chest out of spite... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf86 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 There's too much McNeill hate I feel and too much Abnett worship. What seriously no one found their brain subconsciously adding 'pow' and 'snicker-snick' captions to the images created as you read the last half of Curze-fest? (UE)? It was one big facepalm. They all have their strengths and weaknesses I try to just enjoy the story if I can. For example sometimes McNeill puts in too much detail about what things look like or feel like. More careful use of words can let the reader imagine it and then it saves words for other things. Abnett in my eyes tends to write weak or rushed endings. Now maybe this is because it is seen that another book will soon take up the story. I'd like to know how much of a book is planned out as a group and what events/ actions are unanimously decided. For example did Abnett just get told write about Guiliman on Macragge. Make sure the DAs show up and remember Vulkan arrives? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 With Primarchs, nothing is a given except with Horus. Non-Chaos Horus was good but he wasn't unbeatable. Chaos Horus rivaled the Emperor Well Horus is best of them hand down. It has been lore for a quite some time. Also I don't know why everyone complains about Damon. Luther, a mere mortal wrecked Lion's face in straight duel and noone cares. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 With Primarchs, nothing is a given except with Horus. Non-Chaos Horus was good but he wasn't unbeatable. Chaos Horus rivaled the Emperor Well Horus is best of them hand down. It has been lore for a quite some time. Also I don't know why everyone complains about Damon. Luther, a mere mortal wrecked Lion's face in straight duel and noone cares. Luther was a chemically enhanced human, wearing power armour and (by that point) souped up with chaos powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Corax nearly gets owned twice in the same way to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I genuinely don't get the bile directed at McNeil on this forum (it's actually how I ended up here, arguing about McNeil on the Escapist). I just don't get it, Swallow has delivered far worse books than McNeil ever has, yet I see almost no hate directed his way. Disappointment goes a long way. There might be some, but I honestly can't think of any good Swallow books. McNeil, on the other hand, has delivered books on par with Abnett and AD-B. We have seen what he is capable of offering us, and so when we get something more expected of Swallow . . . We rant online. Cormac summed it up. It's one thing for a bad author to deliver nonsenical lore, characters with all the depth of cardboard, and plots that require everyone in the galaxy to be a thundering dunderhead. We expect this of certain individuals. When they deliver, there is no disappointment, no rage. Just "SSDD" and move along. And then we get a writer that WE KNOW can do better...the bar is set higher, and if it isn't cleared, THEN cometh the howling typhoon of vaguely coherent nerd rage. I think it is still backlash from The Outcast Dead. To which the only real problem with the book was a timeline issue... That may have been planned all along and McNeil bit the bullet on... I believe it really was a mistake but that's another story for another day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I genuinely don't get the bile directed at McNeil on this forum (it's actually how I ended up here, arguing about McNeil on the Escapist). I just don't get it, Swallow has delivered far worse books than McNeil ever has, yet I see almost no hate directed his way. Disappointment goes a long way. There might be some, but I honestly can't think of any good Swallow books. McNeil, on the other hand, has delivered books on par with Abnett and AD-B. We have seen what he is capable of offering us, and so when we get something more expected of Swallow . . . We rant online. Cormac summed it up. It's one thing for a bad author to deliver nonsenical lore, characters with all the depth of cardboard, and plots that require everyone in the galaxy to be a thundering dunderhead. We expect this of certain individuals. When they deliver, there is no disappointment, no rage. Just "SSDD" and move along. And then we get a writer that WE KNOW can do better...the bar is set higher, and if it isn't cleared, THEN cometh the howling typhoon of vaguely coherent nerd rage. I think it is still backlash from The Outcast Dead. To which the only real problem with the book was a timeline issue... That may have been planned all along and McNeil bit the bullet on... I believe it really was a mistake but that's another story for another day. That and NYKONA SHARROWKYN, KYN TO SHARROWS! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Do you really have a problem with the Stealth Legion having special stealth gear and special warriors trained to us it the fullest??? Because someone killing Lucius before his "First death against an Emperor's Children champion" doesn't matter. Do you really think that Lucius is going to go around telling people he was killed by that Raven Guard. Cleary he was not because he is still alive... Right. Also it is an important refocus point for Lucius. Like when he was defeated by Loken and his face gets scared. As already shown in Thief of Revelations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 No, we take issue with poorly written characters being poorly written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Eventually every writer does that at some point. However what makes Sharrowkyn so bad that he is unforgivable??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 No more unforgivable than other poorly written characters. If you are asking why he gets blasted so much these days, probably because he is one of the newest to join that brotherhood, and because he was, in many ways, the last straw in an already bad book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 You are never going to make everyone happy. A good example is that I liked Angel Exterminatus. Sure it has some poor parts but still generally a good book. I would much rather see that Perturabo is underestimating Dorn because his anger is blinding him. Having him show this by playing 40k TTG against one of his subordinates is golden. So much better then having a primarch sqaut 400+ tons just cause he can. Some people however like having Primarchs overpower titans. You are never going to make both camps agree. Imagine the outcry if McNeil had an astarte board another ship by surfing on an aerospace fighter. We already hear about how that Iron Hands ship cut it ways through the Emperor Children's ship. But is it really any different then when that crusier in Know No Fear powered through so much material. Because of its void shields. That's the double standard caused by the still present backlash from The Outcast Dead. people can't let it go and therefore carry an unwarrented bias against McNeil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 You are never going to make everyone happy. A good example is that I liked Angel Exterminatus. Sure it has some poor parts but still generally a good book. I would much rather see that Perturabo is underestimating Dorn because his anger is blinding him. Having him show this by playing 40k TTG against one of his subordinates is golden. So much better then having a primarch sqaut 400+ tons just cause he can. Some people however like having Primarchs overpower titans. You are never going to make both camps agree. Imagine the outcry if McNeil had an astarte board another ship by surfing on an aerospace fighter. We already hear about how that Iron Hands ship cut it ways through the Emperor Children's ship. But is it really any different then when that crusier in Know No Fear powered through so much material. Because of its void shields. That's the double standard caused by the still present backlash from The Outcast Dead. people can't let it go and therefore carry an unwarrented bias against McNeil. I pretty much have to agree. We're talking about a gigantic series of books written across a long period of time by a wide number of people. Not everyone gets everything right all the time, and especially since the authors are basically being told what to write. Most of the events they are writing about are very much set in stone, originally conceived by people who weren't especially good writers. The primarchs combat ability is very much determined by narrative convenience at any given point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3703978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 You are never going to make everyone happy. A good example is that I liked Angel Exterminatus. Sure it has some poor parts but still generally a good book. I would much rather see that Perturabo is underestimating Dorn because his anger is blinding him. Having him show this by playing 40k TTG against one of his subordinates is golden. So much better then having a primarch sqaut 400+ tons just cause he can. Some people however like having Primarchs overpower titans. You are never going to make both camps agree. Imagine the outcry if McNeil had an astarte board another ship by surfing on an aerospace fighter. We already hear about how that Iron Hands ship cut it ways through the Emperor Children's ship. But is it really any different then when that crusier in Know No Fear powered through so much material. Because of its void shields. That's the double standard caused by the still present backlash from The Outcast Dead. people can't let it go and therefore carry an unwarrented bias against McNeil. Nobody is saying that McNeil needs to be perfect every time, all there is is a general complaint for McNeil undercutting his own standards by several degrees on a more and more consistent basis. As for Outcast Dead, I am honestly not sure where you are getting the idea that that book is the origin of anything. McNeil has been writing for some time before that. Nightbringer, for instance, was written twelve years ago, and he was also the author of the earlier Heresy books of False Gods and Fulgrim, all three of which went far more to lowering public opinion than Outcast Dead, which is relatively recent still. I get that The Outcast Dead got a lot of flack, but it in no way is the cause of anything. It's just another knock against him. Which is another thing, that this is the general opinion. That doesn't mean everyone will or should agree with it. I personally liked Fulgrim, and you enjoyed Angel Exterminatus. But examples of outliers doesn't disprove or invalidate the general opinion. It's just proof that it is not universally shared. As for the double standards, it really isn't. You aren't wrong that Nykona Sharrowkyn would not be out out of place in an AD-B or Abnett book, and you wouldn't be wrong in that people would probably be far less spiteful about the character, and probably enjoy him ad much as they do Sevatar, for instance. But that difference in opinion of the character would be rooted in the differences in opinion of the writing styles if these authors. Rule of cool goes a long way, and both Abnett and AD-B write their characters well enough and interestingly enough (by popular opinion, so experiences may vary) as to generally avoid having them be blasted like McNeill's does. In this particular case, the general opinion is that he didn't write him interestingly or well enough to warrant that outlook. That isn't double standards, any more than saying I like the new Godzilla better than the 90's remake is. If people hated Nykona just because of McNeill, and didn't judge the character on its own merits, then that would be the case, but it would be, quite frankly, insulting to just assume that is what everyone is doing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It doesn't help that his name backwards is 'Anokyn' aka Anakin, who is not a character that anyone wants to be reminded of. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 The McNeil hate started after The Outcast Dead. Which is why I credit the hate to that book and not any other misses. Write enough and you will find some people that don't like everything you write. Its not even a bad thing. McNeil's lastest novels Angel Exterminatus and Vengeful Spirit are good books. Not top tier HH but good enough to not recieve anywhere near the hate they are. My point is that the general opinion has been baised against McNeil since The Outcast Dead. To the point where events that take place in his books are shoughted loudly to be terrible. When in fact they would not be out of place in some other author's novels. The fact alone that you don't get the same outcry for the same type of events from other authors is proof that a bias exists. Not individually, but from the general opinion. As a test. Try creating a rumor thread about a fake book that McNeil is "Writing" on one forum. Then on another forum post the exact same fake book but say that ADB is writing it and see the difference in the responces. Just make it something outlandish that will draw posters like Angron vs Russ round 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 One, you may have noticed it after The Outcast Dead, but it is definitely older than that. Two, I, myself, will always read a new book with the hope and expectation that is a good book on it own merits, irrespective of the author's prior work. But I can't fault people who will look on their past experiences with an author to determine how they feel about a potential new release. They aren't doing anything wrong. It isn't unfair to the author Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 When you have enough of the "General Opinion" start a book looking for faults. Then the General Opinion will find faults. It also helps that many of those same poster that will prejudge a book spread that judgement to others who are just reading rumors. So they create a self fulfilling prophecy, for the better for some authors and not so good for others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 And by their perspective, they are warning themselves and others about known issues, and are validated in doing so when they see their warnings were right. Just because you disagree with the opinion doesn't mean the opinion is wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I didn't say wrong I said "Biased". Everyone can have an opinion and just because it differs from my own does not make either wrong. Also when we discuss the general opinion. We are really talking about those that feel strongly enough to actually say their opinion. Then lumping them together. Which means that we are often discussing the vocal minority. As humans we have a social nature that makes us want to be part of the group. Meaning that a vocal minority can have a greater influence on the collective whole. Then someone who quitely enjoys a book. The more vocal McNeil hate put on the internet will result in more hate next time around. Whether it is really deserved or not. If you want you can find faults with every book. Even books you enjoy reading. All you have to do is look for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 This is about opinions on books. Of course there is bias. There can't not be bias in this kind of thing. But honestly, this whole argument sounds like you honestly believe we are only finding fault in his work because we actively seek it out, and it reads to me that you think like that because you disagree with the conclusion. You liked Angel Exterminatus, so our dislike of it must only be because we are trying to dislike it. Not because we just didn't like it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 You're welcome to dislike anything you want. What I am arguing is that the very scenes I keep hearing about that are bad in books like AE. Would not be out of place in the books of authors that this very forum sings their praise daily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 That is not an argument I understand. Authors are not created equal. You can have as many authors as you'd like writing the exact same thing, and some will be acceptable and some will not be. Some people will like Author A's prose better than Author B's. Some people will find Author C's characters more personable, or Author D's action sequences more gripping. So saying that what Graham McNeill writes wouldn't be out of place in a favored author's work means jack-all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Just found this and loled http://th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2013/351/0/0/angel_exterminatus_bird_of_prey_by_vangarshriek-d6ybfh7.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Nameless Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Many thanks for the much needed dose of levity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291503-damon-prytanis-beast-or-what/page/4/#findComment-3704332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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