CSM possibly my next army

[Noxnoctis22]

I'm currently a Raven Guard player and I'm looking into starting my 2nd army soon and Chaos Space Marines might just be it. When I asked other players what was the Anti-RG army (fluff, tactics/game-play or modelling/painting wise) they mentioned CSM. It's just that I love playing RG but I think that building an army that's some what opposite to it will give me a better experience. 

 

So what makes CSM special, fluff, tactics/game-play or modelling/painting wise? Also as a new player would the "Dark Vengeance" be a decent place to start? Why or what not?

[Sception]

I do not recommend playing chaos marines. Try chaos daemons - especially since you're trying to play something different from raven guard, you should be looking at non-meq armies anyway.

 

So yeah. Daemons. Or wait a month or so and see how the new orks look.

[incinerator950]

Opposite in what way?  Chaos Space Marines doesn't really offer a "evil" or "opposing" view and flavor to Raven Guard.  Granted its a great way to have history, even make a Warband specifically enemies of the RG, especially using one descending from the dropsite massacre traitor legions.

I'd actually suggest taking xenos armies like Orks or Tyranids if you want the opposite of hit/run and peekaboo army.  Also, even if you really want to do CSM, now is not a good time to ask simply because we're in a culture shock of the current edition and faq changes coupled with our existing codex.  You're going to get a lot of negative feedback from the more competitive players and unfortunately the truth is we don't offer anything special or counter to a loyalist Space Marine army besides demon engines, meat shields, and tougher marines/bikers and a slew of less useful tech options.

[Noxnoctis22]

I do not recommend playing chaos marines. Try chaos daemons - especially since you're trying to play something different from raven guard, you should be looking at non-meq armies anyway.

 

So yeah. Daemons. Or wait a month or so and see how the new orks look.

 

 

I somewhat ruled out IG/AM, Orks and Tyranids from the get go. Just too many models to buy & paint. I'm not lazy I just only have so much free time and money these days. Tau was also mention to but still not sold on them.

 

Non-MEQ armies would be a big change for me but at least with CSM I can try out some of the new paint schemes I have in mind for MEQ armies. CSM just gives me all the extra detail and chaos-ish goodness.

[incinerator950]

You're still probably better off using Loyalist rules and just pretending to be a renegade chapter on the brink of chaos taint.  :/

[Warsmith Aznable]

What's your current play style? CSM is good if you're into expensive but hard hitting in assault HQ choices, weird daemon engines, disposable Troops, and looking awesome.

[Sception]

As mentioned, you're likely to get a lot of negative comments. We've been working with some stunningly lackluster books for three editions of the game now, and just got hit with an FAQ that was equal parts injury (drake nerf) and insult (no divination after the card set got our hopes up, removal of Abaddon's immunity to spawn/prince results on the boon table).

 

Truth is, CSMs are basically just worse space marines, but with daemon engines. Except daemon engines, while cool, aren't actually good. Even the vaunted helldrake has just suffered a major nerf, after which it is still probably a good unit, but nothing like what it once was. Our characters are suicidal (must issue/accept challenges despite being arguably the worst duelists of any meq book), our marinish units are generally lackluster and points inefficient. Imagine tacticals for near the same cost, but without ATSKNF, Combat Squads, chapter tactics, razorbacks, drop pods, or army-wide special rules that they don't have to pay extra for, and more extra than said rules are worth. Apply a similar template to most other units as well, removing the built in options and special rules of loyalists in exchange for worse options that you have to pay extra for.

 

 

If you have flat out decided "I want to play Chaos Marines, rules be damned", we will help you with some suggestions - though we are all still adjusting to 7e. But if you haven't actually decided yet, we would like to make sure you know what you're getting into in advance.

[Noxnoctis22]

Well you guys aren't convincing me that CSM is a good idea for my second army and I like that. You're not just being CSM cheerleaders and telling me how great and awesome they are. The truth may not be good news but I'd rather learn the bad news before I jump into CSM.

 

And here I was thinking how cool it would be to have a CSM army be the Bizarro to the Superman that my current RG army is....

[Sception]

Femember that bizarro isn't normally just an evil version of superman, he's also usually a mentally crippled and much less competent version of him as well, and one who still can't beat supes even if it comes down to a straight up no-brainer fist fight.

 

So yeah, CSMs are the bizzaro space marines. That's actually a pretty good analogy.

 

And again, we are just now reacting to a painful FAQ, so spirits are even lower than usual around here. I imagine Space Wolves and Blood Angels aren't exactly the happiest subforums at the moment, either.

 

I mean, some of us had even started to feel a little hopeful about 6e, what with the new challenge rules significantly reducing the amount of pain our stupid must challenge rule causes, and with the improved jink save meaning our princes can, if they go nurgle, enjoy a 2+ cover save while gliding to combat, so the melee FMC nerf doesn't hit us as hard as others, etc. And summoning daemons will be fun (though, of course, daemons do it better). And for a while it looked like we were finally going to get divination, which, thematically, was something we should have had from the start - especially our tzeentchian casters.

 

Thing is, anything good for use out of the edition is better for near anyone else (save the poor nids). Like, yeah, the new vehicle damage chart helps our ailing daemon engines some... but it's much better for vehicles with AV13 or 14. It's still childs play to strip the hull points off most of our stuff (though maulers at least are fast enough to not give the opponent much time to do so, and cheap enough not to break you if the opponent does drop them).

 

 

But yeah, our faction has a lot of aesthetic value, both in the narrative and background and in a lot of the models (the newer ones, anyway - the older CSMs, bikes, havocs, etc are kind of meh to sub meh). Again, if you want to play chaos marines anyway we'll help you out. But know what you're getting into.

[the jeske]

Try to make your army as non RG as possible . If you think you could pull something close with a marine codex , do not do it. While limiting in what you can take , it does give a good ground for an army which can be both good and have a lot of character .

 

Try runing your list with codex chaos demons primary and ally codex csm or better the supplement codex CS.

Demons will give you stuff which is very different from meq [no matter which you pick as core of your list] and out of the CSM/CS codex cherry pick the stuff that works good with demons and/or is different from normal meq stuff. So fiends, cultists , spawn would be a good choice.

[Iron Skull Mask]

If you look for fluff and modelling options, look no further. You are totally free to come up with your own warband and the conversion options are unlimited. Just look what Insane Psychopath does with his IW. And there are lots of great WIP threads around to get ideas.

 

And yeah CSM aren't a tier one tournament army, but still a lot of fun to field in a non min-max-meta. If you want such an army go for Eldar. GW seems to love them, and their models look rather cool, as does their background, imo. Though I haven't come across any great conversion-threads on them, it doesn't mean there are non.

 

But should you go for CSM, then I hope you are not a person tending to be depressed easily, as csm online forums might be extremly unhealthy for such persons ;)

[Vesper]

The fluff's awesome.

CSMs also have the best paint schemes around. And by far.

Pick something you like, and you're in.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I'm currently a Raven Guard player and I'm looking into starting my 2nd army soon and Chaos Space Marines might just be it. When I asked other players what was the Anti-RG army (fluff, tactics/game-play or modelling/painting wise) they mentioned CSM. It's just that I love playing RG but I think that building an army that's some what opposite to it will give me a better experience.

So what makes CSM special, fluff, tactics/game-play or modelling/painting wise? Also as a new player would the "Dark Vengeance" be a decent place to start? Why or what not?

I would suggest the Dark Vengance box as it give you a nice start to the army with a HQ chose & troops. Also they are great models, with the Chaos Lord & the unit of Chosen.

Then pretty much keep adding models you like & think about what there role is in the army list.

For me I've been collecting Chaos since White Dwarf 202/around 1996. I've just always like the models & converting models is a big part of the hobby for me, I like my units having a sub theme & it though brillaint games that add onto the unit history. We got a lot of great parts for conversion from our Chaos Marines kits, Space Marines kits & Forge World heresy kits. Currently adding MkIII parts to my new Havoc unit.

I went with the Iron Warriors as there background fit my personality I've enjoy the background from Index Astarties, Black Library novels & the recent FW Heresy book three. Also the art work from the Index Astarties article & the Forge World Heresy book been great.

I've always enjoy useing my Iron Warriors in games, being my main army. Just always drawn back to them no matter what other armies I'm collecting, never have the same connection with other armies apart from my Space Wolves & Black Templars.

You should maybe look that the Night Lord Legion. Also if I rememeber right, didn't Jago Sevatarion get a Raven Guard to join the Night Lords? Or what Chaos force where you thinking of collecting Noxnoctis22??

Also let keep this topic positive & help Noxnoctis out.

IP

[Forté]

Good to see some positive comments ammong the "GW hates us, our Codex is broken".

 

If you're looking for fluff and creativity over flash toys you're in the right place ;)

[incinerator950]

You could always make your HQ a RG who was captured at the DSM and go Zhukov into a Chaos Lord/Sorc/Whatever.  You could very well make him lead a warband derived from any of the traitor legions present there and thus either set a precedence going bizzaro, or playing a RG from their tactics and molding it with a combination of the Legion's style and making your own. 

 

[Fibonacci]

Play a few games as "Counts as" with your Raven Guard before you spend a sack of coin on CSM.  Chaos is not in a good place right now but we have still not really looked at the new 7th edition meta.

 

If you are more into the hobby side, start CSM.  Conversion ideas are unlimited and the new Chosen style models are wicked.  In my opinion of course.  The amount of detail on even the rank and file troops can be up there with special characters of the space marine.

 

On the game side ... it used to be drakes, bikes and oblits but heldrakes are going to be harder to position now.  Daemon allies are almost a necessity.  Over the past couple of year there have been many warbands that are now Daemon primary with CSM allies :(  Despite what many people here will tell you, they are not an auto-lose army (most of the time)  but you will have the short end of the stick more often than not.

 

If you are in it for the long haul and to have some cool models on the shelf, I think you will like CSM.  If you want something different to play that's quick and easy to paint -- have you thought about Grey Knights? (just kidding)  -- I think you would do better with daemons.  Or Dark Eldar.  Or Dark Angels built around the banner of "eat hot bolter rounds." 

[Scribe]

Yeah, with all the flux right now, I wouldnt drop money on anything (except HH....)

[Trevak Dal]

I'll say this, under the Chaos Space Marines codex (and supplements) My Red Corsairs play exactly how a rag-tag, barely surivivng piratical orginazation would play.  Against "normal armies" (no superheavies, lords of war, excessive monstrous creatures) they do okay...probably not as good as my...Grand Experiment will do...but yeah.

[daboarder]

The fluff's awesome.

CSMs also have the best paint schemes around. And by far.

These are pretty much the only two pro's of playing chaos space marines now.

 

Oh also expect a lot of crap about how heldrakes deserved to get nerfed that hard and it serves us right because all Chaos players are still WAAC's holding over form an codex 4 editions ago.

 

edit: Sorry forgot, we do have awesome conversion potential

[Kilofix]

Some people are unhappy with the rules.

 

 

 

But from a building / painting perspective:

 

A Tactical Space Marine, looks like an Assault Marine, which looks like a Devestator Marine.

A Plague Marine, looks different from a Berserker, which looks different from a Noise Marine, which looks different from a Warp Talon, which looks different from a Possessed.

 

A Dreadnought, looks like a Venerable Dreadnought, which looks like a Siege Dreadnought.

A Helbrute, looks different from a Defiler, which looks different from a Forgefiend, which looks different from a Blood Slaughterer.

 

 

 

From a fluff perspective:

 

How interesting is Ferrus, Dorn, Robute, Corax, etc.'s backstories?

How interesting is Logar, Khârn, Fulgrim, Konrad, Motarion, etc.'s backstories?

 

 

 

Oh yeah and - bend knee to the Corpse Emperor or tangle with the real powers of the universe?

[Hellrender]

To be fair, if you want to play chaos, dont do it for the rules.

 

Pick an army that you love the look of. Take a look around at the various legions, or create your own warband. All of the existing chaos factions have amazing fluff (bar a few). 

Chaos also has the BEST conversion options of any army. Anything goes with chaos. We have some amazing Forgeworld options, and if you like to work with green stuff, or even want to start with it, chaos is the best place to learn it with. As you can do easy mutations, to completly sculpted daemonic faces on your tanks.

 

Painting wise, chaos offers a lot more than any loyalist army has to offer, in my opinion. This is because here again, chaos can go one step furhter than their loyalist brothers. With plenty of options for blood effects, slime, gore, pus, rust, you name it.

 

I have never really gotten into chaos for the gaming scene, but i love painting and modelling on what i have. I hope to oneday have a 1850 point army, with 1 heldrake, 1 decimator, 1 contemptor, 2 maulers, and some plague marines, and its going to be awesome. It might not perform that well, or it might do. Doesnt matter, because wether it wins or loses, it is going to look glorious.

[incinerator950]

Play a few games as "Counts as" with your Raven Guard before you spend a sack of coin on CSM. Chaos is not in a good place right now but we have still not really looked at the new 7th edition meta.

If you are more into the hobby side, start CSM. Conversion ideas are unlimited and the new Chosen style models are wicked. In my opinion of course. The amount of detail on even the rank and file troops can be up there with special characters of the space marine.

On the game side ... it used to be drakes, bikes and oblits but heldrakes are going to be harder to position now. Daemon allies are almost a necessity. Over the past couple of year there have been many warbands that are now Daemon primary with CSM allies Despite what many people here will tell you, they are not an auto-lose army (most of the time) but you will have the short end of the stick more often than not.

If you are in it for the long haul and to have some cool models on the shelf, I think you will like CSM. If you want something different to play that's quick and easy to paint -- have you thought about Grey Knights? (just kidding) -- I think you would do better with daemons. Or Dark Eldar. Or Dark Angels built around the banner of "eat hot bolter rounds."

Wait, there is a CSM army list that isn't Demons a requirement? Do tell, I'm intrigued now.

[RolandTHTG]

I haven't played it in a tournament yet, but Mauler/spawn rush gets pretty good reviews, and has gotten me a winning record, especially with the crimson slaughter lord.

[minigun762]

I haven't played it in a tournament yet, but Mauler/spawn rush gets pretty good reviews, and has gotten me a winning record, especially with the crimson slaughter lord.

I've always liked the idea of this build. Paired with Rhino squads, you have an entire army moving fast that's resistant to small arms fire.

[Kilofix]

I haven't played it in a tournament yet, but Mauler/spawn rush gets pretty good reviews, and has gotten me a winning record, especially with the crimson slaughter lord.

 

Add Helcult, Helbrute Mayhem pack and Deep Striking Decimator and it gets even more interesting.

 

Anecdotally though, in my last Apoc game a loyalist Terminator AC got a lucky Pen on one of my Maulers in Turn 1 and Immobilized it with only one wound. With no ranged weapons and no Warpsmith they ignored it the rest of the game. It even recovered its one wound with IWND but had to sit through the full game doing nothing. I could just imagine its sad face watching everything happen around him without being able to partake, lol.