GreyCrow Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Is glancing the new Explodes! ? Overall, now more than ever, spamming high strength weapons is going to be to go-to Anti-Tank, rather than powerful weapons. No matter the strength, AP1 will only explode on 5+ and AP2 on 6+ for any non open-toppd vehicle. I'm pretty sure we're going to see multiple instances of melta and lascannon teams more than ever form now on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 To be honest, glancing in 6th was the go to for many people for killing high armor targets. Why worry about getting a penetrating hit when the lower bar is glance 3-4 times and bang presto problem solved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I agree, stripping hull points is how I see most vehicles go and heavy armour usually pops to a specialist weapon like a melta or something else equally mean otherwise. It's not a big change but is a step in the right direction. I don't expect anything to change much in the long term as such weapons are still good even if you lose the chance for an auto-pop so they will return once the knee-jerk reaction fades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I still think going for high-strength AT weapons is the way to go. People who call for using high-rate of fire medium-strength weapons for hull point plinking seem to forget that the dedicated AT weapons like lascannons and meltas give you a better chance of 1. getting a one-shot kill, 2. any penetrating hit also strips a hull point, 3. due to higher strength, you have a better chance of glancing or penetrating anyway, and 4. your higher chance of a penetrating hit also comes with a tactical advantage, such as halting the vehicle in its tracks or pulling its teeth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I disagree with that. Lower AV vehicles are generally torrented to death via medium strength weapons (which all seem to fire good amounts of shots), but high AV targets laugh at such weapons. If you want to kill such big beasties you hit them with single shot, powerful weapons, often melta based. I do believe, with the damage table like it is now and the prospect of facing off against Leman Russ tanks and all their Chimera little brothers,Quantum Shielded vehicles and good old Marine Land Raiders and Predators and Iron Clads could result in a need for more punch in lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Were you addressing me or Fish? Because you seem to agreeing with me about needing more high-strength shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If I were going to wish list ... I would have a glance remove a HP on a d6 roll > the AP of the weapon; a roll of 6 always passes and 1 always fails. Or maybe just make it a straight 4+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If you want to kill such big beasties you hit them with single shot, powerful weapons, often melta based.I tend to use volume plus Armorbane/melta for these. If one melta shot is good, six must be awesome Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 Thanks for the replies guys ! I think spamming Anti-Tank will be the way to go. We need to aim to strip as many hull points as possible, so Lascannon and Melta spam, here I come ! I really beleive that at least 2/3rd of the units should have a strong Anti-Tank capability in a Marines list, just due to the sheer number of Monstruous Creatures already there and the higher volume of vehicles to come. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No denying Melta and Lascannons are great one hit wonders, but in the grand scheme of things, if all that is stacked is those, then against a force of massed infantry, those weapons are killing 1 model a turn. This is why I have always been a strong proponent of Plasma weaponry and Missile Launchers as they can do double duty if needed. Graviton to an extent is decent if playing marines but the only time I really see that be useful is on the amp/cannon centurions where they can re roll the missed wounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I disagree with that. Lower AV vehicles are generally torrented to death via medium strength weapons (which all seem to fire good amounts of shots), but high AV targets laugh at such weapons. If you want to kill such big beasties you hit them with single shot, powerful weapons, often melta based. I do believe, with the damage table like it is now and the prospect of facing off against Leman Russ tanks and all their Chimera little brothers,Quantum Shielded vehicles and good old Marine Land Raiders and Predators and Iron Clads could result in a need for more punch in lists. Agree 100%. Mid strength flexible weapons like autocannons or multi lasers work fine against lighter vehicles but you need big guns for AV13+. Consider that it takes nine autocannon hits to wreck AV12 but 18 to do the same against AV13. That is a substantial loss of killing power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Were you addressing me or Fish? Because you seem to agreeing with me about needing more high-strength shots. Yeah I was addressing Thunderhawk3015 but I had to hide my phone at work and you beat me to it as I think we agree! My bad! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No denying Melta and Lascannons are great one hit wonders, but in the grand scheme of things, if all that is stacked is those, then against a force of massed infantry, those weapons are killing 1 model a turn. This is why I have always been a strong proponent of Plasma weaponry and Missile Launchers as they can do double duty if needed. Graviton to an extent is decent if playing marines but the only time I really see that be useful is on the amp/cannon centurions where they can re roll the missed wounds. I agree with your position but then I have had no troubles against massed infantry as I got bolters and Honour Guard to pick them off. ;) It's a case that the strengths of my infantry are killing infantry and the crucial targets I need to kill are heavier targets from range. So no one is totally wrong here! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Knights just got tougher to kill... Much harder to tack on those additional D3 HP's. I think they will thrive with the new damage table and the nerf to Smash attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think the Vindicator as an anti tank tool might make a return. Assuming Ordnance works the same as in 6th, S10 with two dice actually beats a melta hit for stripping hull points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 minigun thats a waste for a large blast for 1 hp stripped when for just a bit more points i can have 4 tank hunting lascannons on a IF dev squad. Or a sicarin tank to plink away hp with ease. I really feel that krak missiles are not worth taking anymore, since they cannot 1 shot a vehicle (besides opened top) and dont have the rate of fire to strip hp away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Well a Vindicator is more of a utility vehicle useful for armour saturation. It ain't no battery of lascannons but it'll do some damage if not dealt with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Against a single tank, yeah, a Vindi shot is a waste. Unless it's AV14, in which case it's one of our best weapons for killing those things. In other news, however, Imperial Guard have a tendency to stack armored vehicles next to each other. Whether it's a line of Chimaeras or a squadron of Russes, it's possible for a single Vindicator round to hit more than one tank; I've done that before and my oh my, the look on the opponent's face when a single 130-point tank takes out a pair of Russes by itself with a single shot is a beautiful sight. As for killing infantry, lascannons don't do that. That's why we have Tactical Squads, Vindicators, Thunderfire Cannons, and LRR/LRCs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 well sorry i dont roll box cars when needed to pull that off, considering that my 3 stalkers cant even shoot down a vulture... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If three Stalkers can't shoot down a Vulture, then maybe. . . just maybe. . . you should try three Hunters instead. I gave you a piece of anecdotal evidence that shows how effective high-Strength, low-AP weapons can be. You countered with anecdotal evidence that show how uneffective mid-Strength, mid-AP, high-rate of fire weapons can be. Both anecdotes are telling the same story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 In any case, we need redundancy, a single Vindicator isn't going to reliably change the game. 2 of them, on the other hand... What's a Vulture actually ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It's a FW-produced Imperial Guard gunship. It's a variation on the Valkyrie chassis, and dates to before GW created the Vendetta. Which should never have happened, but that's neither here nor there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 As for killing infantry, lascannons don't do that. That's why we have Tactical Squads, Vindicators, Thunderfire Cannons, and LRR/LRCs. And Honour Guard, of course! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Of course! I should take some pictures of mine for you, Idaho, I think you'd love them. All Techmarine models with big ol' axes. . . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 minigun thats a waste for a large blast for 1 hp stripped when for just a bit more points i can have 4 tank hunting lascannons on a IF dev squad. Or a sicarin tank to plink away hp with ease. I really feel that krak missiles are not worth taking anymore, since they cannot 1 shot a vehicle (besides opened top) and dont have the rate of fire to strip hp away.I'd agree that a brace of lascannons would be superior but it's another effective use for an already flexible unit. Just for comparison, one Demolisher hit will damage AV14 75% of the time whereas a Lascannon hit will damage the same AV14 33% of the time so it's not a horrible chance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291548-anti-tank-in-7th-edition/#findComment-3699816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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