Anti-Tank in 7th edition ?

[Axagoras]

well the melta bombs is a waste of 25 points, and the flamers help a lot. Also putting them in a rhino really doesnt do much since as soon as they get out they are still 5 guys in power armor... Also saturation helps, so more pods with marines helps alleviate that

[GreyCrow]

I agree with your Axagoras that saturation is going to do the trick. This is exactly why I run them in Rhinos, at 1000 points, I have 2 Razorbacks and a Dreadnough with them (and Scout using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics), and at 1500 points, I will have 3 Razorbacks and 2 Dreadnoughts.

Also, they can shoot out of the Rhino's hatches, and while it's only 2 weapons, that's a trade off for survivability.

Good point about the Melta Bombs, I'm not sure they are needed either. I'll run them with them n a Rhino and if they are useful, I'll keep them. Otherwise, I'll invest these 25pts elsewhere

[minigun762]

I'm surprised I haven't seen melta bomb Vanguard recommended more often.

 

Five bomb packing jump pack Vanguard run 135 which is 50 points cheaper than a full melta command squad in a pod.

 

You do give up some alpha but you gain post turn one mobility while saving points.

[Axagoras]

main issue is you arrive turn 2 and assault on turn 3, unless you are jumping up the field then you still go down like 5 tac marines :/

[minigun762]

main issue is you arrive turn 2 and assault on turn 3, unless you are jumping up the field then you still go down like 5 tac marines :/

No reason they can't hide behind an advancing Land Raider.

[Axagoras]

thats assuming they dont get caught in a crossfire since a raider isnt that wide.

[GreyCrow]

I agree with minigun about the Vanguard Veterans, they are a nice anti tank unit that can provide some support in melee against other elements.

 

Because they are just 5 models, it's really easy to hide them on the battlefield ! Flank them around, hide them behind buildings and charge that big vehicle ! I'd really not Deep Strike them unless there is absolutely no cover at all midfield that they can hide from.

 

Besides, no battle plan survives the enemy and trying to maximize the alpha strike, or plan than in Turn 2, X specific force of the enemy must be destroyed is not the way to go. Often, it's better to advance or delay the main assault until the perfect moment, which will change from battle to battle.

 

____

 

On the topic of Anti-Tank, after that game with the beasty Command Squad, it's a very cool unit, but extremely costly with a lot of redundancies (as someone mentionned, don't need melta + melta bombs) and unnecessary equipment (5 Flamers are cool, but they are overkill !).

 

For the exact same cost of running them in a Rhino, I thought that loadout could be worth trying out :

3 Veterans with Meltaguns & Boltguns

2 Veterans with Boltguns, Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs and Stormshields

Razorback with Twin Linked Assault Cannon

 

Keeping the Boltguns in case I need to Rapid Fire infantry, and 3 Meltaguns should do the trick. Only 2 Meltabombs on Veterans with Stormshields because they will strike at Initiative 1 in close combat and we might need to withstand AP2 blows from Monstruous Creatures ! They're also going to act as an escort for my Librarian who doesn't have an Invulnerable save.

The Razorback over the Rhino simply because I will run 2 or 3 other Razorbacks to confuse the enemy target priority and also have a 4 S6 shots with Rending that will probably help against Light Armour and Transports.

[Emperors Immortals]

Don't think you can retain boltgun if you take a melta.

 

Maybe we should recommend units within cost bands, because between 1000 and 1500pts, MMattack bikes are the best value IMO, with "superbomber" vets a la minigun762 coming a close second. This is for BA though I don't see why its much different for codex.

 

Melts command squads whether in rhino, pod or razor just cost too much for anything less then a Lord of War or AV 14 IMO, unless with cheap BA troops.

 

Plasma isn't reliable enough anymore and sub 1000 I favour the HeavyGunner dread variant. On the maths, I've not run a 7th game yet but in 6th pretty reliably took 2-3 HP if not plain explode OR 4-5 ME wounds.

[minigun762]

If we assume we can handle light armor with hull point stripping, our concern for heavy anti tank is limited to AV13+.

 

What I'd be afraid of is:

Land Raider

Battle Wagon

Leman Russ

Soulgrinder

Monolith

Super heavy walkers or tanks

 

And against these the list of answers is fairly short.

Melta or other armor bane

Mass lascannons

S10 attacks

[GreyCrow]

I think the main (highest number of) Anti-Tank should be your 3 choices, along with complimentary Autocannons/Assault Cannons/Plasmaguns in case you run into a high concentration of transports.

 

The simple reason is that what works well on a Land Raider will work even better on light armour. Besides, you don't need enough firepower to take on every unit of the enemy at the same time. Every turn, there will be a different priority target, and with tactical maneuvers you can have a bit on control on what is the primary target for you.

 

What I also like with S8+ is that it will wound most Monstruous Creatures on 2+ and a few on 4+. I'd rather dedicate a few melta units to down an MC rather than risk a single plasma squad for the kill.

 

@Emperor : I agree that a full melta Command Squad in a pod is too suicidial and too expensive, and it'll be better going for smaller units. In a Rhino or Razorback, however, I think they're viable as long as you don't rush them to a target : you want damage over the course of the game.

And yep, I checked again, it's possible to keep the Boltgun and a Melta. You can replace the BP or CCW with a Boltgun, and you can replace the Boltgun or a CCW for a special weapon. I just swap the bolt pistol for a melta and the CCW for a Boltgun ;)

 

Besides, they double up as Monstruous Creature hunters, so volume of shots is always good against 4 to 6 wounds !

[Emperors Immortals]

Great post minigun762, that really focuses the discussion!

 

I'm spoilt with the Baal preds (TL AssCannon) for everything up to AV12, and have relied on predators with TL lascannons for the rest in my theory list.

 

That's a fair bit of punch, though I'm thinking of swapping out one Baal and a pred for a godhammer. Could just have enough Aa for a fast armour BA list.

 

But that's so far theory crafting, im tryi.g to collect some RL example lists that handle AV well.

[markham82]

How about two "lowly" 5 man tactical squads in drop pods with melta gun/ combi melta. Drop them close to your preferred target, it only takes one shot to explode a vehicle( bar super heavies). If your lucky the second squad can now shoot another vehicle. Its also two tagets instead of one if you don't count the pods. 

[GreyCrow]

@Markham : Yeah, 2 in Pod is good, but that means going for a mainly Drop Pod army. Which is fine, but as we see, we need to stick to a theme ;)

[minigun762]

How about two "lowly" 5 man tactical squads in drop pods with melta gun/ combi melta. Drop them close to your preferred target, it only takes one shot to explode a vehicle( bar super heavies). If your lucky the second squad can now shoot another vehicle. Its also two tagets instead of one if you don't count the pods.

We were discussing that idea elsewhere and the overall feel was it's a gamble choice. Two shots has potential to ruin a vehicle but is far from a sure bet. Taking two such squads gives you a good chance but we are up to 250 points so we need them to do more than just suicide melta.

 

For comparison, here is the point cost per melta for various options.

 

Five man tac squad melta combi melta drop pod = 62.5 points per shot

 

Five man command squad five melta drop pod = 37 points per shot

 

10 man Sternguard squad 10 combi melta drop pod = 36.5

 

Dual multi melta speeder = 40 points per shot

[Captain Idaho]

I rate a melta Tactical squad though. It might spend more points per melta, but costs less overall. Alternatively you can go for a full squad and hit the opponent with combat squadding. Target either two separate armour units or hit an infantry squad with one combat squad.

 

Of course the price of this versatility is the lack of specialism in a field, but hitting any AV14 target with 2 meltas still hurts and that is 2 Hull Points.

[markham82]

I see what you mean Minigun( I'm going to use the point per shot calculation from now on), although the command squad looks like a bigger suicide unit and the sternguard are crazy expensive, but just as murderous. The land speeders looks like good money.

 

On a side note(off theme, DOH!!) I think most people would agree that anything that pods in alone is a suicide unit so keeping it cheep while still performing its job( anti tank, back on track) is key when you want to use a unit that way.

 

I like the melta tacs in my pod list since they are not suicide units, they're backed up by 5 other pod units(35 models) over two turns.

[incinerator950]

How are chaos bikes and rapors with bombs and meltas fairing?

[minigun762]

Point per melta (or any weapon) is just one thing to consider.

I like it when discussing suicide squads because the trade off is always to maximize killing power and minimize point loss

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Once again thanks minigun that does help things a lot even in my other thread. For a suicide squad I think 5 Melta Guns are perfect considering the new vehicle damage tables you should have a good chance of a 6 + kaboom and if they survive great go kill something else.

[minigun762]

Some quick math hammer with Melta and AV14.

Each melta hit has a 58% chance to penetrate AV14 and you need 3 penetration to average one BOOM!

This means we need just over five hits.

To get five hits with unmodified BS4, it's 8 shots.

 

Edit: it's also 8 shots to strip four HP from AV14.

[Captain Idaho]

Good information.

 

Remember the long game folks. A couple early hit points could mean the difference between killing the Land Raider/Russ or not etc. Also consider a single weapon destroyed or immobilised result could be substantial too. Hell, even a stunned result will enable you to survive a turn shooting.

[minigun762]

Good information.

 

Remember the long game folks. A couple early hit points could mean the difference between killing the Land Raider/Russ or not etc. Also consider a single weapon destroyed or immobilised result could be substantial too. Hell, even a stunned result will enable you to survive a turn shooting.

Exactly, don't examine everything in a vacuum.

 

Hitting a target turns 1-2 with some lascannons when they're at range and then finish the job up close with a melta gun and bomb.

 

Edit: In addition, this highlights the importance of redundancy in anti tank options.