Ahriman is a murder god!

[gargamelgrozni]

i think it is simple, the first rule in the entire psy phase chapter says "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level" and it is written in bold, what more do you need?

[Sn4k30r]

So lets say we have 10+Warp charges,     ahriman knows 3 witchfire,  you tell me that can cast 3x each of them? (even if he is 4ML can cast 9xwitchfires? and +1 for his 4rth lvl?) so other psyckers just exist and look ahriman how he manifests?

[Shuggnuggath]

I notice that it says he may 'attempt' to manifest the same power up to 3 times, not that he may manifest the same power 3 times. I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Exactly Sn4k30r! Its laughable to think that a single psyker can cast 9+ powers in one phase...

[Forté]

No he can't cast them all three times. But if there was one he wanted to cast three times he can. Which would leave him one more cast to use for his total of four.

 

Please stop looking for game breaking loop holes and justification. Read the rules as they are. Use a bit of common sense. And if something seems stupidly powerful then it must be wrong.

[daboarder]

forte it uses attempt when it states you can only caste each once. regardless of if your attempt is successful or not.

 

Yes ahriman can cast each witchfire power 3 times

 

 

I find it particularly funny people are having a hard time buying this, despite rules for summoning 30-40 models a turn now being part of the game. clearly balance is not an issue here people.

 

and I've yet to see an actual quote supporting the assumption that "depends upon" means "may cast as many as"

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

DUDE Feris! read man, you cast as many powers as you HAVE but can only cast them once each.

 

the memory means that you have 5 powers, you can cast up to 5 powers (because you can caste each once)

 

You increase your ML, yay! your now generating another warp charge.

 

that is all

I am reading, and no where have I read the words "the amount of powers you can cast per phase is equal to the number of power you have"... What I have read is " The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

 

DUDE, daboarder! stop trying fabricate rules... If that is the way you want to play it, go for it, it's your game. The rest of us will play by the rules....

 

But how does it depend on your Mastery Level? It does not say 'the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level'. If I say that you can only use a number of powers equal to half your mastery level per turn, where do the rules say I'm wrong? I would still be limited by my mastery level, just not in the way you interpreted that sentence.

 

Overall, this looks like yet another rule that fell through the cracks thanks to GW's allergy to editing.

[Sn4k30r]

Sorry dont try find holes in rules..... its like  Fenrisulfur explain to you, it says it clearly on pg 22 : With bold letters  : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level... what you want more to say that you dont undestand?  i cant see the problem...

[daboarder]

Sorry dont try find holes in rules..... its like  Fenrisulfur explain to you, it says it clearly on pg 22 : With bold letters  : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level... what you want more to say that you dont undestand?  i cant see the problem...

except the fact that you cannot find a quote which states the specific relationship between mastery level and number of powers cast is a bit of a hole in your logic

[Sn4k30r]

 

Sorry dont try find holes in rules..... its like  Fenrisulfur explain to you, it says it clearly on pg 22 : With bold letters  : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level... what you want more to say that you dont undestand?  i cant see the problem...

except the fact that you cannot find a quote which states the specific relationship between mastery level and number of powers cast is a bit of a hole in your logic

 

Lol??     so you dont give a *edit* about page 22  mastery levels? you create your own rules? ok so your logic is 20 dices all cast by ahriman and all others psyckers in army watch him doing so?

[daboarder]

But how does it depend on your Mastery Level? It does not say 'the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level'. If I say that you can only use a number of powers equal to half your mastery level per turn, where do the rules say I'm wrong? I would still be limited by my mastery level, just not in the way you interpreted that sentence.

Overall, this looks like yet another rule that fell through the cracks thanks to GW's allergy to editing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Answer this mate

leif here has the right of it

edit: Actually You seem to be under the impression that I cannot take Warp charges generated by my aspiring sorcerers and use it to cast powers with ahriman, so Im not sure if you get the basics of the new psychic phase

[FENRISÚLFUR]

 

Sorry dont try find holes in rules..... its like  Fenrisulfur explain to you, it says it clearly on pg 22 : With bold letters  : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level... what you want more to say that you dont undestand?  i cant see the problem...

except the fact that you cannot find a quote which states the specific relationship between mastery level and number of powers cast is a bit of a hole in your logic

 

Nor have you found a quote that specifcally says that the relationship between the number of powers a psyker has determines how many power that psyker can cast.  Furthermore, the FAQ for the Black Staff says ' It allows Ahriman to attempt to manifest the same witchfire power up to three times per Psychic phase'. What it does not say is that he may manifest EACH witchfire power up to three times per phase.. <- hole is whose logic?

 

forte it uses attempt when it states you can only caste each once. regardless of if your attempt is successful or not.

 

Yes ahriman can cast each witchfire power 3 times

 

 

I find it particularly funny people are having a hard time buying this, despite rules for summoning 30-40 models a turn now being part of the game. clearly balance is not an issue here people.

 

and I've yet to see an actual quote supporting the assumption that "depends upon" means "may cast as many as"

 Above is your post saying he could cast each witchfire power three times... Looks like someone is trying to bend/break the rules to their liking...

[Leif Bearclaw]

Sorry dont try find holes in rules..... its like  Fenrisulfur explain to you, it says it clearly on pg 22 : With bold letters  : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn is equal to his mastery level... what you want more to say that you dont undestand?  i cant see the problem...

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Page 22 states 'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each depends on his Mastery Level'. It later says 'the psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level' These two sentences refer to different things. At no point does it define how number of power usable per turn depends on Mastery Level, only that it does.

[daboarder]

Theres no point leif, feris is being deliberately obstinate, all we can do is point out the critical logic hole in his assumption and let others decide

 

No, See under mine you are still limited by your mastery level as you may only cast each power once.

 

how many powers do you have? Oh look, you have as many powers as your mastery level, and are therefore dependent upon your mastery level for how many powers you may cast.

 

No assumptions here

[Lord Xcapobl]

We would just have to wait and see what a future FAQ says about this, I guess.

 

But what about that Mastery Level 1 psyker with a Force Weapon? Assuming he remains ML1, he can roll for 1 power. But as he has a Force weapon he also gets the Force power, and the psyker probably also gets psychic focus. That's 3 powers known for a ML1 psyker.

 

Page 24 clearly states, in bold to boot, that no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

But just 5 or so line above that, not in boldface, the same rulebook, on the same page, mentions you can attempt to manifest another power with the same unit, as long as you have Warp Charges left. So, once again, in what way does my Mastery Level limit me again?

In this example, backed by a page reference, a ML1 psyker could manifest 3 different powers.

 

Now looking at Mastery Levels explained, in the same rulebook on page 22, I too can read the statement of the number of powers each turn depending on ML. But how? Where does it say that a ML1 psyker can only manifest 1 power each turn? Or that a ML2 psyker manifests a maximum of 2 powers each turn? Nowhere. The page 22 entry on Mastery Levels only continues with stating how a psyker gets to generate 1 power per Mastery Level (not yet including bonus powers for taking Force Weapons, Psychic Focus, the psyker being a special character that also has powers assigned to him, etc). Seeing as to how one can only try to manifest each power once per turn, this is indeed a Mastery Level dependent limit, as most psykers will only have one or two powers when they are ML1. Also, note how the BRB mentions you can only attempt to manifest each power once. If you fail, you cannot attempt to use that same power with that same psyker again.

So, again backed up by the BRB, I see no limit depending on Mastery Levels, other than the amount of powers known. The same unit can continue to attempt to manifest powers, until the Warp Charges are all used up, or he has attempted all his known powers once each.

 

And then there was Ahriman with a Black Staff...

[Sn4k30r]

So even a sergeant then in Thousand sons how many powers can manifest ? with no ML restriction on casting?

[daboarder]

He knows 2 powers and force therefore he can attempt to manifest each one once, provided he has sufficient warp charges (he only generated 1 of those)

 

Its not hard people

[minigun762]

Take all rule discussion to the proper section of the board. This is not that place.

 

And there will be an immediate stop to any disrespect towards your fellow members.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

 

Theres no point leif, feris is being deliberately obstinate, all we can do is point out the critical logic hole in his assumption and let others decide

 

No, See under mine you are still limited by your mastery level as you may only cast each power once.

 

how many powers do you have? Oh look, you have as many powers as your mastery level, and are therefore dependent upon your mastery level for how many powers you may cast.

 

No assumptions here

 

 

 

Verb 1. depend - be contingent upon

[daboarder]

edit: Never mind

[Sn4k30r]

So in page 22 : the number of powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level ,

 

Can use , = we dont care, we see Mastery levels only (cause as you say there are no point for levels...except only used as WC given? 

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Here

[Lord Xcapobl]

So even a sergeant then in Thousand sons how many powers can manifest ? with no ML restriction on casting?

 

To give a slightly extended example:

 

I assume you mean a Thousand Sons squad, from the Elites section. It has a Thousand Sons sorcerer as a squad leader (the sergeant you mention?), which is Mastery Level 1.

This means, according to page 22 of the rulebook, he will generate 1 power. Having the Mark of Tzeentch, this power must be generated from the Tzeentch list.

Now you roll your D6 and get one of the three available Tzeentch Powers. Keep the power you rolled, and due to the Psychic Focus (Chaos Psychic Focus to be precise) rule you get that primaris power anyways. Up till now, you have generated one power, and you get one bonus power for Psychic Focus.

 

Then I look at the army list, and I see the squad sorcerer has a Force Weapon. Page 22, right column just above the Psychic Focus section, tells me this psyker also gets the Force psychic power as a bonus. So right now we have Thousand Sons squad with a ML1 sorcerer, that, by just following the rules on pages 22 and 23 of the new rulebook, has a total of 3 psychic powers available.

 

Then we go on to page 24, where there is mention of manifesting psychic powers. You can select the same unit over and over until one of these two instances happen:

• You run out of Warp Charges
• You have attempted each of that units known powers once each that turn.

Note that you can attempt specific powers only once each turn. There is no mention of actually manifesting them. Therefor your ML 1 sorcerer in that Thousand Sons squad can manifest between 0 and 3 powers in a single turn, depending on your successes at manifesting them. However, these must all have been the three different powers. You cannot attempt to manifest Force, for example, if you already attempted that in the same turn with the same psyker.

[Hellrender]

I'm with the interpretation of Daboarder, and replied in your thread with as sensible of a example as i can think of, so i hope that makes sense.

To bring this back on topic. That makes Ahriman quite cool. Fluffwise, Ahriman used to make use of cabals of sorcerers to power bigger spells (like the rubric), which is now very much possible ingame. Bring Ahriman, and several other psykers (either more sorcerers with unbound, or allied in heralds), and you can power expensive spells, or just cast some multiple times, even witchfire powers.

I like this

[Forté]

From the rule book:

 

Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

 

So thinking about it, it could be possible for him to attempt 15 powers if he had 5 witchfire powers and enough warp charge. And didn't get killed due to perils. But the chances on that without running an Unbound pure sorcerer list are pretty low surely.