Ahriman is a murder god!

[Thoqqu]

I'll follow the discussion regarding number of powers castable / phase for a while but I'll voice that Ahriman doesn't get a 5th power for having a mark.

 

The mark limits his options in forcing him to take at least one of his 4 powers from disciple of tzeentch. (Codex pg. 30)

[Forté]

He automatically gains the Tzeentch Primaris power as per the BRB now. On top of his 4 powers.

 

 

Chaos Psychic Focus

 

If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons), that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

[Lord Xcapobl]

But he'll have each of the three Tzeentch powers, the Force power because the Black Staff is a Force weapon, and he'll get the Tzeentch Primary power because of the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. That's 5 total.

 

Even if he takes different disciplines, you get the same result, or even better.

 

One from Tzeentch and three from different disciplines (regardless of how many different disciplines), which makes four total due to his Mastery Level. The we apply Chaos Psychic Focus from BRB page 22. For a total of 5 powers. And then we apply the fact that he gets the Force power because of the Black Staff...

 

...which means...

 

...he could actually have up to six powers. Like every other ML4 psyker (granted, those others must have either four powers from the same discipline, or be subject to Chaos Psychic Focus as well).

[Clone]

All this talk of ahriman casting 12 witchfire powers makes me think:

A) How is he getting all those power dice without spending too many points on other psykers

2) How had he not died to perils

Tractor) You'd need to place ahriman pretty close to the enemy to make the most of this trick and you can bet the enemy won't just let ahriman stroll up the board

[daveNYC]

This is straight up RAW (the wording says depends, but does not explicitly state what the mathmatical relationship is) vs RAI (for a given value of Intended, given what we know about GW and their love of balanced mechanics) where you'd probably would think ML X means being able to use X powers.

 

As others have stated, for non-Ahriman types, they can only cast each power once, so ML 3 (for example) casters know between 3 and 4 powers (depending on if they split between disciplines).  This will limit them to casting, at most, their ML + 1 in powers a turn.  Add in that most of them won't be rolling around with many units that generate extra warp dice, and even if the wording is vague, it's not a huge issue, most armies just won't have the warp dice or viable targets for all their powers on any given turn.

 

Ahriman's black staff, combined with Aspiring sorcerers and horrors is very much an outlier in that department.  If only there were some document that GW could put out that would be able to address questions, like this one, that people will be frequently asking.

[Lord Xcapobl]

If only there were some document that GW could put out that would be able to address questions, like this one, that people will be frequently asking.

You mean like... a Frequently Asked Questions document?

Nah. GW would never provide us with a FAQ.

[Thoqqu]

I stand corrected.

It appears that finally chaos rightfully has the most powerful caster. Eldrad losing his crown or did some space marine take that away earlier?

 

* seems like he can get upto 5 witchfires...

[Clone]

I stand corrected.

It appears that finally chaos rightfully has the most powerful caster. Eldrad losing his crown or did some space marine take that away earlier?

Tigirius is the ultimate psychic power in this universe. He's an ultramarine after all.

[Forté]

 

I stand corrected.

It appears that finally chaos rightfully has the most powerful caster. Eldrad losing his crown or did some space marine take that away earlier?

Tigirius is the ultimate psychic power in this universe. He's an ultramarine after all.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/29063619.jpg

[Valaskjalf]

I stand corrected.

It appears that finally chaos rightfully has the most powerful caster. Eldrad losing his crown or did some space marine take that away earlier?

 

* seems like he can get upto 5 witchfires...

 

Why 5? And if that were possible, wouldnt that mean your army would need a ridiculous pool of casting dice to pull it off? And that's without any buffs or daemonology thrown in..

[Hellrender]

4 from his mastery levels, 1 from the tzeentch primaris.

 

And ofcourse, all that talk about insane amount of psychic shooting does require either an unbound list, or max allied heralds, and at that point you DO do it purely for **FUN**.

 

Doesnt make the thing any less appealing.

[Forté]

 

 

I stand corrected.

It appears that finally chaos rightfully has the most powerful caster. Eldrad losing his crown or did some space marine take that away earlier?

 

* seems like he can get upto 5 witchfires...

Why 5? And if that were possible, wouldnt that mean your army would need a ridiculous pool of casting dice to pull it off? And that's without any buffs or daemonology thrown in..

He's level 4 and the Tzeentch Primaris is a witchfire power so 5 is in theory possible. But yes, the casting dice will be an issue.

[Sception]

Considering that, in order to cast more than one or two witchfires in a turn, he'd need considerable psychic backup to generate those dice, and that that backup would most likely come in the form of additional chaos sorcerers, tzeentch heralds, and horrors (thousand sons, sadly, are a poor return on dice for points cost)... Is one dude spamming a bunch of short to mid range shooting powers (which may in the process allow for superior dtw rolls) really any more powerful then the half a daemon army you could have summoned to the table with those same dice had the heralds taken them for themselves?

 

Ahriman is a lot cooler now, and certainly more killy, but I know which of those two options I'd be more afraid of myself, and I know with a pile of tzeentch daemons on the table, I'd be breathing a sigh of relief every time ahriman cast any power at all.

[totgeboren]

RAW is pretty clear, since it never states in what way your master level limits your casting ability other than that you may only attempt each power once. Therefore Ahriman could potentially cast 15 powers in a turn, provided he had enough lesser psykers backing him up.

 

However, Ahriman doesn't have the re-roll from familiars that other CSM psykers have, so I still think he is our worst HQ-level psyker. I would rather use those 15+ warp charge on psykers that have a much better chance of getting their powers off. Using him as a psychic cannon feels like a pretty bad idea.

 

RAI, I dunno. Maybe the intent is that a lvl 2 psyker can only cast two powers. I didn't read it as that the first time I read the rules, but I see now how you could interpret it like that. Hopefully the rulebook FAQ will clear this up.

[Sception]

Note: 16 powers in one turn max, with force, and if you happen to roll the 5-6 tzeentch spell (the only tz witchfire becides the primeris), and happen to be close enough to an enemy unit to use template weapons (which said tz spell is).

 

It's a neat trick, but I agree that most of the time you'd be better off with more reliable sorcerers with familiars, assuming you weren't just exponentially spamming daemons for more daemons.

 

Still, it's a neat gimmick, and, though overpriced, I didn't exactly dislike ahriman before, what with the infiltrate trait and being decent in support of some infiltrating plasma spamming terminators. Not the most powerful army, and sadly pretty inefficient in the end, but still pretty cool, and potentially spamming a bunch of, say, psychic scream would certainly contribute nicely.

[Valaskjalf]

Note: 16 powers in one turn max, with force, and if you happen to roll the 5-6 tzeentch spell (the only tz witchfire becides the primeris), and happen to be close enough to an enemy unit to use template weapons (which said tz spell is).

 

It's a neat trick, but I agree that most of the time you'd be better off with more reliable sorcerers with familiars, assuming you weren't just exponentially spamming daemons for more daemons.

 

Still, it's a neat gimmick, and, though overpriced, I didn't exactly dislike ahriman before, what with the infiltrate trait and being decent in support of some infiltrating plasma spamming terminators. Not the most powerful army, and sadly pretty inefficient in the end, but still pretty cool, and potentially spamming a bunch of, say, psychic scream would certainly contribute nicely.

Im lost again...how do you get to 16? Is that 3 x 5 Witchfires per turn including Force or how did you get to 16?

[Forté]

 

 

Note: 16 powers in one turn max, with force, and if you happen to roll the 5-6 tzeentch spell (the only tz witchfire becides the primeris), and happen to be close enough to an enemy unit to use template weapons (which said tz spell is).

 

It's a neat trick, but I agree that most of the time you'd be better off with more reliable sorcerers with familiars, assuming you weren't just exponentially spamming daemons for more daemons.

 

Still, it's a neat gimmick, and, though overpriced, I didn't exactly dislike ahriman before, what with the infiltrate trait and being decent in support of some infiltrating plasma spamming terminators. Not the most powerful army, and sadly pretty inefficient in the end, but still pretty cool, and potentially spamming a bunch of, say, psychic scream would certainly contribute nicely.

Im lost again...how do you get to 16? Is that 3 x 5 Witchfires per turn including Force or how did you get to 16?

Using Force once as it's a sixth power from the force weapon but it's not witchfire so could only be used once.

[Sn4k30r]

All this talk of ahriman casting 12 witchfire powers makes me think:

A) How is he getting all those power dice without spending too many points on other psykers

2) How had he not died to perils

Tractor) You'd need to place ahriman pretty close to the enemy to make the most of this trick and you can bet the enemy won't just let ahriman stroll up the board

yeap too much talk for almost nothing.... as everyone sees witchfires are almost 18-24'' so you are near to opponent..... ahriman dies in 1 turn no chance with 4t 3+save stand opponents shooting :)            Eternal warriors with Fnp (iron hands fall) Dps shrounded fall,biker -lords t5-6 2+ IWND or fnp fall.... what makes you a model with no EW will survive? 

[daboarder]

You could take allies from the vraks lists.....15pt psykers adding to the wc pool. And honestly ahrimans not hanging I the breeze. Hes an IC stick him in a unit and then go blasting. Plus most witchfires are ML 1. So be a little risky and use one or two dice if you want. Doesnt matter to much if half fail when you can throw 18 ap2 shot down range flowed by 3 shrieks and whatever other witchfires you rol up

[zyl-]

I think this is a legit strategy that [if unfixed] actually will be used to amazing effect. An army that is dedicated to summoning with the exception of Ahriman could summon out enough warp charges in the first turn or two to fuel Ahriman for the later game where could literally eat deathstars with this kind of power. What choice do you really have as the opponent? Spend two turns focus firing A-man out of a cultist blob while more than double his points are summoned in your camp, or focus on summoners summoning summoners and let the A-man roll up? A pure Tzeentch army is indeed looking for a place in the world for the 13th crusade.