Manifesting Psychic powers

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Question for the brain trust.

 

How are the amount of powers a psyker may cast per phase determined?

 

P22 of the BRB states 'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.'

 

See the reference above.

 

I will not interject with my interpretation until others have had a chance to voice their interpretations.

[Hellrender]

Simple really.

 

You get X powers based upon X mastery level + Psychic Focus if applicable, + Force if equiped.

 

This means a Mastery level 2 Librarian, rolling everything in Biomancy, will get 2 Biomancy Powers, 1 Biomancy Primaris, and Force, for a total of 4 powers.

 

If he is your only Psyker, you get D6 + 2 warp charge. Normally that means he can cast about 2 spells, and maybe the force weapon, before running out of warp charge.

 

However, if i now add another Mastery level 2 psyker. I get D6 + 4 Warp charge. I can then distribute the amount of warp charge freely between the 2 psykers as i see fit. if psyker 1 is within reach of some units i want undurance on, while also giving Iron Arm to the psyker, i can do so. But then i will most likely not be able to do that much with psyker 2.

 

The only limitation is thus the total amount of warp charge i can generate in a turn.

 

Also, if the psyker had say, 3 witchfire powers (heamorage, Life Leech and Smite), i can use all of them once, as long i have enough warp charge to do so. 

[daboarder]

When quoting rules fenris, quote the whole thing. Context is important.

 

 

 

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Even a Psyker with a Mastery Level of 1 is a fearsome foe. Psykers with a Mastery Level of 4 or higher are incredibly rare, and it is better for the galaxy that this is so – they are almost unbelievably powerful, and rarely submit to any authority other than their own.

 

 

 

We would just have to wait and see what a future FAQ says about this, I guess.

 

But what about that Mastery Level 1 psyker with a Force Weapon? Assuming he remains ML1, he can roll for 1 power. But as he has a Force weapon he also gets the Force power, and the psyker probably also gets psychic focus. That's 3 powers known for a ML1 psyker.

 

Page 24 clearly states, in bold to boot, that no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

But just 5 or so line above that, not in boldface, the same rulebook, on the same page, mentions you can attempt to manifest another power with the same unit, as long as you have Warp Charges left. So, once again, in what way does my Mastery Level limit me again?

In this example, backed by a page reference, a ML1 psyker could manifest 3 different powers.

 

Now looking at Mastery Levels explained, in the same rulebook on page 22, I too can read the statement of the number of powers each turn depending on ML. But how? Where does it say that a ML1 psyker can only manifest 1 power each turn? Or that a ML2 psyker manifests a maximum of 2 powers each turn? Nowhere. The page 22 entry on Mastery Levels only continues with stating how a psyker gets to generate 1 power per Mastery Level (not yet including bonus powers for taking Force Weapons, Psychic Focus, the psyker being a special character that also has powers assigned to him, etc). Seeing as to how one can only try to manifest each power once per turn, this is indeed a Mastery Level dependent limit, as most psykers will only have one or two powers when they are ML1. Also, note how the BRB mentions you can only attempt to manifest each power once. If you fail, you cannot attempt to use that same power with that same psyker again.

So, again backed up by the BRB, I see no limit depending on Mastery Levels, other than the amount of powers known. The same unit can continue to attempt to manifest powers, until the Warp Charges are all used up, or he has attempted all his known powers once each.

 

And then there was Ahriman with a Black Staff...

 

[markham82]

 Hellrender explains it well I think, except that you can use as many witchfire powers as you have depending on warp charge( see witchfire under types of psychic powers). You can even target different targets. And then shoot a normal weapon at yet another target in the shooting phase.  

[Lord Xcapobl]

In a way, the amount of psychic powers a single psyker can manifest does indeed depend on his Mastery Level, as daboarder attempts to show with my full quote.

 

You can attempt each power once. A ML1 psyker can have 3 powers (one generated, one from Force equipment, one from Psychic Focus). Thus a ML1 psyker can manifest between 0 and 3 powers each turn. Not 4. Nor 5 or 6 or more.

 

Page 24 allows us to continue to choose the same psyker and attempt to manifest a different power. This can continue until one of these instances happen:

• You run out of Warp Charges (dice).
• You can no longer attempt to manifest a different power with the same psyker, because you already attempted each power once that turn (regardless of failure or success at manifesting).

[Hellrender]

 Hellrender explains it well I think, except that you can use as many witchfire powers as you have depending on warp charge( see witchfire under types of psychic powers). You can even target different targets. And then shoot a normal weapon at yet another target in the shooting phase.  

 

Ah thanks, editted that now :)

[Lexington]

Have to agree w/ daboarder, Lord Xcapob and the like here - under the current rules, there's no direct relationship given between a model's Mastery Level and the number of powers they can manifest on a given turn. It's implied, both from a sentence in the rules and and from 6th Edition's treatment of psyker powers that this may be the intention, but it's a pretty vague connection to make. Even as someone who often comes down on the side of interpreting rules using clear intent, rather than text alone, I can't say that this is one of those cases.

[Fibonacci]

Who's got popcorn?

[Dam13n]

Yep, the limitation is the number of Warp Charges available, combined with the number of psychic powers the unit/model knows.  In most friendly games that include one or two psykers per side, this is fine.  D6 + 1 to 6 warp charges (depending on Psykers taken).

 

Essentially we have an imposed limit of:

- Mastery Level +1 for Focus (+1 for Force, if available)

So a ML1 Librarian could cast 3 powers providing he has enough dice (usually requiring 6 dice for 3 WC1 powers, assuming 2 dice per attempt)

 

This is obviously a big departure from the "Mastery Level 1 = 1 power per turn" of 6th edition, but it's by no means game breaking in itself.

 

The RAW abuse of Ahriman's staff is actually rather funny.  Potentially spamming 15 Warpfire attacks per psychic phase is almost never going to happen, but if it did...

 

My experience on Tuesday (our local games night) was that the phase is actually really nice and tactical if you're each running a single psyker.  The order you use abilities and how many dice you throw at each attempt is a nice tet-a-tet where you get to try and out-think your opponent, ideally getting him to waste his deny dice trying to stop something potentially dangerous, so that when you get round to casting something truly awesome... he's stuffed.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

So the connection that most are making is that ML dictates the number of powers a given psyker has, and that with enough dice you can cast powers equal to the number of powers you have.
 
Reference - page 22, Mastery Levels
 
Reference - page 24, Manifesting Psychic Powers
 
A question I would ask then is how does having the Force power allow for another casting? If we are including the quoted/underlined text in the formula used to determine the amout of powers one may cast per turn then the Force power must seemingly not be used to calculate the total, as it is given from a piece of wargear an not dependant on mastery level. Where in the BRB does it state that you may manifest all of your powers (given enough warp charges) each phase? To infer that a psyker can manifest all of their powers (again, given enough warp charges) is making an asumption, just as much as to assume that ML= total number of powers that can be manifest per phase.
 
Both paragraphs are leaving us with slightly less information than we need to fully know how many powers can be manifest by a single psyker in a given phase (again, given enough warp charges).
 
Here is a breakdown of the way I understand the way to determine the limit on the manifestation of powers
 
1. Mastery Level- this acts as a guide for both the amount of powers known and amount that can be manifest per phase
 
2. Has the power been manifested yet this turn
 
3. Does the active player have enough Warp Charges to allow for a roll
 
4.If a power has been already used this turn, it can not be manifest again
 
5. If a psyker has manifest a number of powers equal to his ML he may not manifest any more powers this phase.
 
Edit:  I did ask that people avoid quotations at this time in this thread, this post has been edited accordingly, Dam13n

[Sception]

12? Ahriman is ML4, so with two tzeentch witchfires and three rulebook witchfires, he could concievably cast 15 witchfires in the same phase, plus cast force, for 16 powers total off of one psyker in the most lenient interpretation of these rules (which, absent faq or errata, is as far as I can tell the best fit interpretation in this case).

 

Before we get super excited about that, considering that Ahriman's theoretical backup in this case would be, what, some chaos sorcerers, a bunch of tzeentch heralds, and some horrors? Is blasting one or two units out of the water (and, I might add, potentially giving them more favorable deny the witch rolls in the process) really that much scarier than the 500 to 1,000 points of chaos daemons that could have been summoned to the tables had those heralds taken the dice for themselves?

 

Seems like a neat trick, rather than anything truely broken, so I'd be inclined to let it slide regardless.

[Smurfalypse]

I hate to say this, but currently as the RAW is concerned, the amount of powers you can attempt to cast a turn is not regulated by your mastery level. It just says "depends on your mastery level", it does not specify a quantity, we can argue back and forth on what they intended but that will just be opinion based.

This is an example of GW and their bad rules writing, how hard would it have been to say "equal" instead of "depends". . . Depends? Because I will have more force dice which would allow me to cast more? Or depends because I am only allowed to cast powers equal to my mastery level? Who the knows.

12? Ahriman is ML4, so with two tzeentch witchfires and three rulebook witchfires, he could concievably cast 15 witchfires in the same phase, plus cast force, for 16 powers total off of one psyker in the most lenient interpretation of these rules (which, absent faq or errata, is as far as I can tell the best fit interpretation in this case).

Before we get super excited about that, considering that Ahriman's theoretical backup in this case would be, what, some chaos sorcerers, a bunch of tzeentch heralds, and some horrors? Is blasting one or two units out of the water (and, I might add, potentially giving them more favorable deny the witch rolls in the process) really that much scarier than the 500 to 1,000 points of chaos daemons that could have been summoned to the tables had those heralds taken the dice for themselves?

Seems like a neat trick, rather than anything truely broken, so I'd be inclined to let it slide regardless.

While I 100% agree with you, I will say this.

Daemon Factory will not be used in most games, period. It takes too long to play, it would garner a bit of attitude from your opponents, and last but not least you MUST have all the models. Most people will not have that third part in line, so it really is a moot point.

At events, if you take an hour for YOUR turn one a judge will be called over and you will be disqualified for slow play (rightfully so). I think for the most part the Daemon Summoning will be used as intended, maybe a unit or two later in the game to help secure objectives.

Merged double post, Dam13n.

[daboarder]

daemon summoning will speed up immensely once people get a handle on how to use it

[jeffersonian000]

Daemon summoning will tone down as soon as people realize how huge of a resource hog summoning is versus the loss in buffing their side or harming you side. I'm of the opinion to just let people summon until their Psykers explode while Denying every one of their ML1 spells, because let's face it, it takes 9+ dice to get an ML3 power off, and that many dice is pretty close to a garanteed Perils. So what if they get a couple more daemon units on the table while I camp objects with Super Scoring troops, if they are summoning, they aren't dropping Vortex or spamming Psychic Shriek.

 

SJ

[Grey Mage]

The number of psychic powers you know depends on your mastery level.

You can only cast powers you know, and with some rare exceptions you can only cast each one once.

Hence, the number of powers you can cast in a turn depends on your mastery level.

I dont think it needs to be more complicated than that.

[Seahawk]

Force, though, has nothing to do with mastery level, so what to do? A ML2 psyker with a force weapon has four powers and can only manifest three? (according to that camp) Or a ML2 psyker can only manifest two? (according to the other camp)

 

Either way, no psyker seems to be able to manifest all its powers in a turn.

[Venemox]

The only hard limit I see is that you must select a psychic power that the psyker trying to manifest has not already used. So, the ML2 Psyker with 4 powers may try to manifest all 4 powers (number of dice in the pool permitting). Of course, the number of powers you have depends on your ML; therefore the number of powers a psyker may attempt to manifest per sychic phase depends on their ML. In general: A ML 1 Psyker will always know at least 2 powers and perhaps 3, a ML 2 psyker could range from 2 to 4 powers, a ML 3 psyker could range from 3 to 5, and a ML 4 psyker could range from 4 to 6. That's ML + Psychic Focus (if applicable) + Force (if applicable). Of course, there are specific exceptions to every rule.

[Grey Mage]

Force, though, has nothing to do with mastery level, so what to do? A ML2 psyker with a force weapon has four powers and can only manifest three? (according to that camp) Or a ML2 psyker can only manifest two? (according to the other camp)

 

Either way, no psyker seems to be able to manifest all its powers in a turn.

Why not? A ML+Force has 3 powers.

 

He uses one charge on his first power- success.

He uses two charges on his second power because its a witchfire- it goes off, double time, success! Where did this extra charge come from? The D6 pool of extra warp of course.

Theres still two charges left in his pool.... so he casts the force power, looking towards the assault phase. Rolls two dice, gets a success, his opponent who isnt actually going to charge the libbie lets it pass.

 

Three powers in a turn, no reason not.

[Seahawk]

Well, that was dependent on the dice, not on his ML. ;)

 

The number of psychic powers you know does not depend on your mastery level, and same with how many you cast, because force exists as an external "power" that has nothing to do with your level. You don't get force because you're a 1-4. You get it because of a weapon.

[Grey Mage]

Well, you have to be a ML1 psyker to use a force weapon at all, so its still mastery level dependent if you want to be so pedantic.

And no matter how many powers you know, you could fail them all- so yes, the dice are always involved.

But the numbers of powers you know- and thus the number of powers you can cast- is based on your mastery level. There are modifiers- such as having a force weapon or other wargear, or having all your random powers from the same bailiwick.

[Hellrender]

I see a couple of things people are confused about.

 

The sentence about Manifesting powers based on mastery level is a reference to 2 things:

1) The amount of Warp charge you have per given turn is greatly dependent on the amount of mastery level you have. The more mastery level the more warp charge, the more powers one can manifest. This sentence has the exact same meaning as the one in the BRB.

 

2) The amount of spells you have is based upon your mastery level, and you can't cast the same power twice. (unless you have some special rule allowing you to bypass that). This is another example of that very same sentence of the BRB.

 

There is no other RAI here. Its simple RAW that this is what it says, and i can well imagine this is the RAI version aswell, as this allow great strategic play as others have said before.

 

So in summary:

- You generate powers based on what mastery level you are + Psychic focus + Force (if force weapon). 

- You manifest powers based on the amount of warp charge you have, and how much you wish to spend on the casts. The more Warp charge you decide to use on a cast, the less you have for other spells.

Again, really simple, and no need to overthink it, or think that there is a deeper meaning to the BRB sentence, as it is just as it is written.

[Dam13n]

GM - Actually you don't, you only need to be in a unit with a model that has a force weapon and a psyker level.  As the force psychic power activates all force weapons in a unit.  Now this doesn't matter for most armies as they have no way to give a non-psyker a force weapon.  The exception being Grey Knights, who can give a non-psychic Ordo Malleus Inquisitor a Nemesis Daemonhammer by virtue of taking the Terminator Armour upgrade.

 

Now, if he joins a unit that contains a force equipped psyker, then his force weapon may still be activated (by the psyker in the unit casting the force power).

 

;)

[Grey Mage]

Interesting- I was looking for such an example, and hadnt been able to find it.

[Ozshock]

so you are telling me this...

 

my purifiers have Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand, AND Force (when against Daemons also Banishment)?? they can cast ALL of them in a single turn, given enough warp charges?

 

this makes no sens ewhatsoever...thats 4 psychic powers cast by a ML1 Brotherhood of Psykers squad...one would think that a PML1 psyker would have to choose the SINGLE power that he wants to cast...he may have up to X but he can only cast 1

 

i know the rule is ambiguous at best but this just made GK so :cuss powerful...a unit of terminators can cast Hammerhand AND Force...no sense whatsoever...its always been one or the other...

[Gentlemanloser]

Warp Charges.

 

Why does the above make no sense, but you having 10 Psychic Pilot Rhinos allowing your single Librarian to use an extra 10 dice to cast thier WC3 Vortex of Doom?