swift claws - a tad better now?

[skeletoro]

So... swift claws are a mêlée unit. Jink is now a 4+ cover save, but forces the unit to fire snap shots the next turn. But... they're a mêlée unit.

 

Plus, they now score!

 

What do you think, are swift claws looking a tad more attractive in this edition?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Somewhat, but still need a wolf priest with them to maximise their hits.

[Valerian]

Twin-linking still works for Snap Shots, too, right?  I've been a fan of Swift Claws for a long time, but I do think they're even more advantaged this edition.  As Kasper says, you'd still really probably want a Wolf Priest with them to 1) overcome Headstrong and allow them to shoot those weapons, and 2) get Preferred Enemy Infantry to maximize their beat down in assaults.  They have terrific mobility, and their survivability with the Jink is even better than ever.  Definitely a worthwhile unit in my opinion.

 

Don't forget to always, always, always upgrade one of them to an Attack Bike!

 

V

[skeletoro]

it's such a shame that wolf priests on bikes cannot take Saga of the hunter. I really think they should.

 

In this case it wouldn't be so much for outflank, more for the +1 cover save.

[Kasper_Hawser]

We'll just have to hug cover and stay out of sight until we either reach our objective, or get near to our prey. We've bike speed and turbo boost, should be easy to hug cover unless somebody set up a board with virtually no LOS block.

 

One thing I won't use Swiftclaws though, is the traditional melta strike which Chaos Bikers, Marine and Ravenwing do well. With BS 3, not really worth the risk. In fact, I rather use them for area denial, discouraging others to encroach on their territory. I can't remember how many special weapons can be fit into a squad though.

[skeletoro]

Cover doesn't stack with jink though... if there was a relatively straightforward way to get skilled rider or stealth (better yet, shrouded), I think that'd be more up their alley.

 

I'm not sure i'd shell out for special weapons, given that they're often going to be snap firing.

 

It's be lovely to be able to put a single black knight at the head of a blood claws unit - with the grenade launcher. Skilled rider, hit and run, and scout. That's some really nice USRs right there. And -1 to enemy WS and initiative would shore up swift claws' biggest weakness (they can dish it out but tend to get hit back hard)

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, sadly Hit and Run is not in our MO, so I don't see anyone in the Space Wolves getting it anytime soon.

 

On the other hand, this might be where we can synergise well with Ravenwing allies (fluff notwithstanding). Either Ravenwing Radgrenade the target to soften it up, followed by devastating charge by Swiftclaws. They either wipe them out or tie in combat. No need for Hit and Run at this point.

 

Otherwise, can potentially attach Samael with the pack instead? Combined with Wolf Priest on bike, not only get Hit and Run, but preferred enemy too.

[skeletoro]

MO -modus operandi?

 

Hit and run is definitely nice for space wolves though. It's a nice little complement to counter attack. (I noticed that defensive grenades are too when looking through the grey knights dex. With hit and run, counter attack, and defensive grenades, assault armies would be quite sad I think.)

 

White scars give us hit and run quite easily and it's kinda thematic to field the two 'barbarian' legions together. Sadly although they get +1 jink, it doesn't pass on to blood claws. And although they get bike squads as troops, they're less assaulty and have a harder time dealing with the jink changes, I think (their command squads are scary though)

[skeletoro]

astral claws.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Yep, MO is modus operandi, so called unique operating procedures. And Russ has never been the fast type, more like the in your face before you know what is happening.

 

LOL, don't call White Scars barbarians, they really don't like it. Or at least Jagathai hated it. He always wondered why the heck everyone associated his legion and the Space Wolves together. And apparently Russ and Khan didn't have much interaction.

 

Spoiler alert....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a matter of fact, Magnus and Khan were actually good friends and were actually the pioneers of the Librarius program. But he wasn't around to defend his friend in the Nikae council (no doubt due to Horus deployment of his legion far far away), and really regretted not being there.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, yeah, allying with Korsaro Khan maybe cheaper than Samael. Though Samael is a better tarpit thanks to Eternal Warrior and AP2 sword.

[Sohail187]

untill the stat line is changed... i dont see how you can justify the points put into these units.

[skeletoro]

Yeah I just finished listening to Scars

I was being a tad tongue in cheek there with my use of barbarians.

I don't really think hit and run is an un-SW kind of fighting style, personally. Perhaps more Redmaw or Morkai than Blackmane, but wolves are canny hunters.

What points are you referring to specifically, sohail? You mean the 25 points per model for the bikes (seems like a good enough deal when you consider what they get relative to a grey hunter) or the cost for ICs etc that you add to them?

[Kasper_Hawser]

I think wolves bikes are overcosted compared to the SM codex. I don't have the SW codex with me right now, but the SM codex is 20 points. So yeah, I think our own IC on bikes are more expensive and if we're already spending that much for fast movement, may as well go Thunderwolf Cav. Which sadly Wolf Priests can't.

 

Like I said, its not like the wolves CAN'T hit and run. It's just not their general style with the exception of Erik Morkai or Bran Redmaw. Even then, those two I normally imagine them taking the enemy by surprise, completely destroying it then move on to next target. Ravenwing and White Scars on the other hand would apply pressure and panic on multiple fronts using their speed and superior firepower.

 

In essence, it's like comparing the classic Mongol ranged firepower to troll slower armies which I think epitomises White Scar and Ravenwing armies, as opposed to Native American or Vietcong ambush tactics which typically leave no prisoners which is how I imagine the ambush tactics of the Space Wolves, particularly their wolf scouts, Erik Morkai and Grey Hunters.

 

If we compare to real life cavalry, I imagine Space Wolves cavalry to fight like Alexander's Companions or Roman outriders: they harry, skirmish and pick on the soft elements of the enemy army rather than barge full head on like European knight cavalry against an enemy line. Even Thunderwolves we have to be careful on our targets: they're not T6 so not very safe from smash attacks, though thanks to 7th edition..... HOLY MOTHER OF RUSS! MC can only smash once now! THUNDERWOLF CAV! HUNT THAT RIPTIDE/BLOODTHIRSTER/TRYGON/MAULERFIEND! I think our misunderstood wolf riding brothers just got a hell of a lot better!

[Valerian]

untill the stat line is changed... i dont see how you can justify the points put into these units.

 

It's not terrific, but the stat-line doesn't hurt too much, really.  The lower BS is offset by having twin-linked weapons on each Bike, and a WS3 model hits a WS4 model the exact same as he would if the Swift Claw also had WS4 - the only downside is that they get hit back a little easier.  That's offset by the extra Attack that they get from charging, so it's mostly a wash.  Preferred Enemy from a Wolf Priest escort will significantly increase effective output in both Shooting and Close Combat, too.

 

For a 25 point per model investment, you get a decent unit with great Survivability (T5 with 4++ Jink Save), terrific Mobility, and resepectable Close Combat ability.  That being said, I wouldn't go over the top with them, nor would I use them as my only dedicated Assault Force.

 

We'll just have to hug cover and stay out of sight until we either reach our objective, or get near to our prey. We've bike speed and turbo boost, should be easy to hug cover unless somebody set up a board with virtually no LOS block.

 

One thing I won't use Swiftclaws though, is the traditional melta strike which Chaos Bikers, Marine and Ravenwing do well. With BS 3, not really worth the risk. In fact, I rather use them for area denial, discouraging others to encroach on their territory. I can't remember how many special weapons can be fit into a squad though.

 

Swift Claws can take a single special weapon in the unit.  I modelled mine with a Plasma Gun, since I love plasma, and they're Relentless, so firing it doesn't prevent a charge, but a Melta gun works well, too.  Sure they're only BS3, but they still hit 50% of the time, and it's not like the special weapons are excessively expensive.  The fact that their speed/Tactical Mobility allows you to place that special weapon in a position where it can be useful is important, too.  I'd also recommend a Plasma Pistol upgrade for whomever you've chosen to escort your Swift Claws - for me, that's going to be a Wolf Priest - one of the few models that I should probably take care of finishing this year.

 

V

[Kasper_Hawser]

You make lots of valid points Valerian. I think it's time we diversified our tactics a bit instead of relying on Grey Hunter spam. I may actually be tempted to make swiftclaws now...

 

.... but first I gotta find a way to convert a proper and awesome looking wolf priest, either on foot or on bike. 

[Fytharin]

I think our issue has been, has been mine anyways, is how do you make bikes Space Wolf like? Sure you can paint it our colors but our SW models have always had a flavor and we tend to be a very flavor focused player base. I might take this on as a challenge to be honest but that could be part of our problem on this forums is we're sticking a lot to the models that are 'good' but tend to have flavor on them already. Grey Hunter spam with our character worthy models. Just a thought =/

[JCarter]

They look really good with the extended front fork, Orange County style.

[Grey Mage]

Where are you seeing that they score?

[skeletoro]

Me? Everything scores (didn't mean objective secured). That ups the value of highly mobile units, perhaps especially in maelstrom of war games. Battle forged troops units will still trump them in that regard (which is worth considering when comparing to marine bikes) but they'll be good for stealing objectives etc.