b1soul Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Realistically speaking...on a modern battlefield (and conceivably on a futuristic battlefield), large size/mass isn't really an asset. In fact, it's often a liability: 1. It's harder to hide behind cover 2. It's easier to break whatever structure is supporting you 3. It's harder to fit through narrow spaces I suppose large size (and the reach advantage it entails) is great in close combat (and 40K, rather nonsensically, places quite a bit of emphasis on close combat)...but I can't help but think that in a firefight, being a huge target would be disadvantageous Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMagnus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Cover and being a huge target isnt much of a problem when you are a human tank. I do support your 2nd and 3rd idea. But then again, the bigger size is because of the increased muscle mass (making them stronger), the bigger bones (making them tougher) and finally the spychological effect of watching a 2,50 - 3 meters (somewhere in that range if I recall correctly) dude in huge armour and a gun that fire rockets coming at you. After all the idea of space marines is using them as shock troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Transhuman dread is the most likely. I think that really cancels out most downsides. Sure it's harder to find cover, and structures may break under your weight, but it's also easier to smash through enemy cover. Also Orks. There's a thread similar to this on Warseer right now, where most of the posters seem to agree that 8ft is too tall and Marines would be better if they were shorter (I don't). Orks seem to deal with things just fine, and they're usually bigger than the average marine. Marines have to be big enough and strong enough to deal with these beasties. It's rare that a Legion will fight without an Imperial Army contingent anyway, so any objectives or battlefields that are unsuitable for Marines can be dealt with by them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daevyll Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Well Space Marines tend to not care so much about cover anyway, that is what the power armour and bio-engineered toughness is for. IE, you can hit me but you can't hurt me. Psychologically it would also be a big advantage I think, the 'transhuman dread' metnioned to in several books seems quite potent. Perfect for shock assault troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 to make them stronger, power armor, intimidation, champions of mankind, huge weapons, and to fit all those extra organs that makes them superior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 1. It's harder to hide behind cover 2. It's easier to break whatever structure is supporting you 3. It's harder to fit through narrow spaces This is offset by some advantages: a. Reaching a certain amount of strength, a combatant is able to singlehandedly carry and operate an anti tank cannon (auto-cannon or laser cannon) b. Large combatants are more intimidating (note how Marines are usually brightly colored, so presence and intimidation are usually prioritised over evading enemy fire) c. Aside from offensive capabilities in combat, more mass allows them to withstand an assault by the various horrors of the 41st millennium, which would quickly overwhelm a position fo guardsmen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 In addition to the advantages already given, consider that being a head or two taller gives quite an advantage in perceiving your surroundings. Their size is also thought to not hinder them to much as they are linked to their armour by the black carapace, allowing them to move much like a normal soldier and less like a clunky suit of armour. I'd also consider that both the Primarchs and the Astartes are supposed to be symbolic, the power of the Imperial creed given form. So, you'd want them to be seen. Also, if you check out on all that biotech mumbojumbo inside them....all those extra organs have to go somwhere. Thatbalone would account for a size increase IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Also one point I haven't seen mentioned is redundancy. Remember they know they are going to be in combat. We today have seen superhuman efforts from sheer will power alone. However there are certain things that just wont work. You heart stops it's game over until revived etc. Lungs, ya kinda need them. So the way to keep these soft pink things we call bodies going is to give them back ups so if one gets put out of commission then you've got the back up. Of course to do this you need space and we can all agree that most of us don't have the space for another set of lungs and heart. Hence make them bigger and easier to "work on" as well as give them enough back up systems to where they can "take a licking and keep on ticking." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Mass x acceleration = force, for one. Also, they weren't made slower by the size increase, quite the contrary. Marines are like even larger and stronger Captain Americas, and with a similar degree of agility, by all accounts. Their armour also increases both strength and speed - even Terminator Armour (except for walking speed). Oh, and weight also makes them more resistant to shockwaves (though that's also affected by the exposed surface). It also made room for larger and more numerous bones and extra organs. And there's the psychological and moral effect. Imagine an Imperial parade, with the Imperial Guards batallions marching proudly, followed by the Emperor's elite, the 5-feet Luna Ninjas...not exactly an inspiring vision, for all their deeds :) Nor one that would put fear in an enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Because it's cooler Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 So their power armour would fit them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Well. What if the human size is very small in regards to sentient species? It'd help to have 8ft dudes running around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 To give them more muscle mass, which needed to be supported by a larger and strengthened skeleton whoch was needed to create a larger chest cavity which was needed to make room for the extra organs like the secondary heart and third lung which would enable them to survive in otherwise hostile environments so they'd be able to fight and defeat all of the various enemies of Mankind regardless of where they were found. *and breathe* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 'Why did the emperor make primarchs and SM so big?' The question on the lips of all the Emperors Children's victims! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 ....close combat (and 40K, rather nonsensically, places quite a bit of emphasis on close combat)... Well I don't agree with this one. Regiments of Imperial Army mirror modern reliance on close combat quite well. Some marines and some xenos might prefer CC but thez have darn good reason for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Realistically speaking...on a modern battlefield (and conceivably on a futuristic battlefield), large size/mass isn't really an asset. In fact, it's often a liability: 1. It's harder to hide behind cover 2. It's easier to break whatever structure is supporting you 3. It's harder to fit through narrow spaces I suppose large size (and the reach advantage it entails) is great in close combat (and 40K, rather nonsensically, places quite a bit of emphasis on close combat)...but I can't help but think that in a firefight, being a huge target would be disadvantageous You have excellent points, but they are excellent in a modern battlefield, not a future battlefield ;) 1. Power Armour reduces the need for cover. If we take the game mechanics (rather than the books, at least we have numerical values in the game system), power armour is able to withstand a 0.998 autopropelled explosive shell (boltgun), while it would outright kill a Guardsman or an Ork. It is able to withstand shots from Autocannons in the face, while they would outright pierce the armour of any other Troops bar Necron Immortals. 2. This is a fair point, a Marines being half a ton with all his gear is going to ask questions for structure collapse. However, in the 41st (and even the 31st), every structure looks like it's made of some sort of metallic rock, which I'm sure would support the weight of an Astartes. 3. Space Marines don't need to fit through narrow spaces ! They flame what's inside the narrow spaces ! Or they blow up a bigger hole to fit through. Or find another entry point ! As others pointed out, the large size has a few tactical advantages : - Intimidation factor. Originally, Space Marines were weapons designed to subjugate other human worlds. Seeing 2.5m tall humans drop from the skies in Pod or Jump Packs sure is going to provoke awe or fear to non bioengineered humans. - Ability to carry heavy weapons. A Guardsman team needs to dedicate 2 men to operating a heavy weapon or mount them on tanks. A Space Marine can carry a Lascannon alone, leaving one more Marine available for shooting or doing other stuff. You also reduce the need for vehicles in your army, and are able to provide targets with a lesser profile to your opponents. - Melee prowess. Mass x speed = energy of a blow. 500 kilos shoulder butting you at 20kph is going to hurt really, really bad. At one would be surprised how fast heavy weights fighters move. They are less nimble than lightweights, but they are not slow behemoths like they are represented in the general idea. ( )- Less need for technology and support. Because of their extra organs and overall superhuman physical prowess, the Space Marines need less support from tools or a vast logistical infrastructure supporting them. They need to clear a corridor filled with rubble ? They can move the boulders on their own. They need to hold a door open to let their squads move through ? They don't need fancy forklifts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraCaptain Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 OP let me translate your question: Why did the emperor not make space marines and primarchs like imperial guards? Answer: they die in droves There you have it, human size sucks. You are weaker, meaning no hand held heavy weapon, no 10x platemail armour, no shock assault, no instinctive authority, no beating monsters in close combat, etc etc. =) Big is better, red is faster, .. everything is logic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 As I've always said...whats scarier than a space marine shooting you with a boltgun?...A space marine hitting you with a boltgun! :D BCC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Realistically speaking...on a modern battlefield (and conceivably on a futuristic battlefield), large size/mass isn't really an asset. In fact, it's often a liability: 1. It's harder to hide behind cover 2. It's easier to break whatever structure is supporting you 3. It's harder to fit through narrow spaces I suppose large size (and the reach advantage it entails) is great in close combat (and 40K, rather nonsensically, places quite a bit of emphasis on close combat)...but I can't help but think that in a firefight, being a huge target would be disadvantageous This is Space Fantasy not a high sci-fi setting remember. Technology has come around full circle and we have returned to what is today considered outmoded forms of war. A strong sword arm, and mighty armour trumps whatever your foes can throw at you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Realistically speaking...on a modern battlefield Niether of these things translate into the 30k/40k setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Realistically speaking...on a modern battlefield Niether of these things translate into the 30k/40k setting. I don't think that is true on a modern battlefield either - quite a few armed forces around the world have minimum height requirements Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Movement speed as well, 7.5 ft tall guys cover a lot of ground with each stride. So you can drop a marine miles from the objective and he can get there much faster than a human could. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Bigger means longer limbs which means more leverage. A sword is a better weapon than a spear, mechanically, because it combines a wedge (to concentrate force) with a lever (the length of the sword) to increase the speed at which the sword edge impacts the enemy. A spear is just the wedge, so you get the concentration of force, but if you're stabbing, you get no mechanical advantage from the length of the spear. Spears do have other advantages though. An arm, can be thought of as a lever, so the longer arm allows for greater mechanical advantage when swinging things around. You also can't discount the psychological impact of being charged by someone who is around seven or eight feet tall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Primarchs might be an even bigger proof that morality was at play. Sure we don't know what exact organs they have underneath, but Custodes, who are more refined (one assumes, being more expensive to produce) than Space Marines, are the same size as Astartes, so size doesn't automatically equal abilites. The Emperor aimed to build generals with the Primarchs. I'm sure he was aware that size does make a diffence in hierarchical interactions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3701993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I have always thought that the size of the marines was a clue to the Emperor's real intention - not the liberation of humanity but the subjugation of humanity. One of the novels has a quote about wanting to save the human race being an excuse for wanting to dominate it. Look at marine physiology, equipment and modus operandi and you see that they are engineered to be victorious against humans. There will be loads of xenos races small enough and weak enough that unaugmented humans give better value against them (marines will be better but not by enough of a margin to be worth the investment to create them) and lots of xenos races that are big enough that they will massacre marines almost as easily as standard humans - e.g. mega-arachnids. The time when the value of marines instead of regular humans is greatest is against other human or near human races. I think the marines were there to show other human societies (Interex, Technocracy, Olamic Quietude) who was the true Master of Mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291649-why-did-the-emperor-make-primarchs-and-sm-so-big/#findComment-3702010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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